Mod Picker: The Fearsome Juggernaut

[wolfgrimdark]

Well hey that does sound much better. I have access to that thread so will check it out. Hope to see things improve then and that folks are willing to listen and discuss ideas. Will be sure to follow what happens and appreciate the update.

[SplashDamage]

: The author, on the other hand, can spend countless hours, days, weeks, months ... working on a mod for no other reason that getting some thanks in the comment and maybe seeing it get popular

 

 

That was my point about same and equal value, not necessarily from a "numbers" standpoint (not putting down your point in the least), but each depends on the other, if that wasn't the case, then they (mod authors) really wouldn't care about the things you, me, or anyone else ever said or happen to mention, let alone a "ratings" systems of such (not defending that system btw). I believe that many depend on positive feedback from users to help them, not just with modding but future jobs as well -builds confidence, stuff like that-. Just because a few say they don't care and would remove their mods period (to protect their ip -well this I understand completely-, for spite, anything), doesn't represent the whole, nor every modder that ever existed. I for one, would never hold that opinion ever (unless it infringed on my ip or it's perceived representation so to speak), which is, why I guess I posted in the first place.

 

This doesn't reflect on anyone in particular, nor to be associated with your post in general, but over the years, new modders starting out can be harmed more by the "few" arrogant, often egocentric role models they choose, based on community popularity, worse than idiotic and often time mindless users (I definitely have hit that area more than once! Lol!) who they'll never model themselves after. Which to me, the person (who happens to be the user) is of more value than the attitude of someone else (simply because I use their mod, or are afraid to lose access to it).

 

: Let's stop fighting and start working together on this. We have not held your opinions in high enough regard and we are ready to change that way of thinking.

 

 

Thanks for the update. I'm glad everyone is getting things worked out.

Edited April 27, 2016 by SplashDamage

[zufield]

 

Well I have read it and I'm actually curious about how this position has been "debunked." The EULA says:

 

If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit. You also waive and agree never to assert against Bethesda Softworks or its affiliates, distributors or licensors any moral rights or similar rights, however designated, that You may have in or to any of the New Materials. If You commit any breach of this Agreement, Your right to use the Editor under this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice.

That seems pretty explicit to me.

 

At least you're even reading the right one :tongue:

 

Anyway, if you read that carefully, it grants Bethesda a license to use your work. It DOES NOT grant them OWNERSHIP of your work. I realize that's not always a clear distinction, but it's legally important, because it means the copyright on the work remains with the author. Not with them.

 

Even then, their position as stated here has never been properly tested in a court case. So they may not even legally have as much as they are asserting they have.

 

What it boils down to is basically "we can use your work if we want, you can't sue us if you object".

 

At no point does this cause you to forfeit enforcing your rights against other parties. Bethesda has reinforced that they believe mod authors own their work through actions they have taken on our behalf. Valve has confirmed this by providing authors ready access to a DMCA takedown form to expedite removal of stolen content. Both companies have extensive legal teams and would not have put themselves in the position of validating author copyright if we did not actually have it.

 

 

No, you fail, because you do not own your work on Skyrim in the first place, seeing as how it's made entirely with Bethesda's copyrighted material. If you did own it then you could go and sell it without getting a C&D from Bethesda.

 

The playground is owned entirely by Bethesda, they're just willing to let you play in it.

[Arthmoor]

No, you fail, because you do not own your work on Skyrim in the first place, seeing as how it's made entirely with Bethesda's copyrighted material. If you did own it then you could go and sell it without getting a C&D from Bethesda.

 

The playground is owned entirely by Bethesda, they're just willing to let you play in it.

You clearly have zero understanding of how copyright works.

 

Under copyright law, the owner of a work is allowed to govern who gets to make copies, distribute them, make derivative works from them, perform the works, etc. Derivative works created with the permission of the rights holder gain copyright on the portions the secondary author contributes to the work.

 

Bethesda has granted us the right to create derivative works for Skyrim. Part of the license granting us that right says that they can license mods back from you to use as they see fit, and that you are not allowed (currently) to use said mods for commercial gain. You retain copyright in the additional material you have provided.

 

That's it. If you want the gory details of the applicable copyright law Skyrim is governed by, see this: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

[DrakeTheDragon]

People should really stop contradicting Bethesda's say in the matter and putting words into their mouths they never said.

Bethesda themselves have said time and again it is exactly like Arthmoor said. You're not up against our interpretation of it here but Bethesda's explanation!

 

You can twist the words of the EULA all you want, but if its "creator" itself already disagrees with you, what's the point exactly?

 

edit: Again, this is not an official Nexus standpoint, as I learned my disclaimer alone won't do. If it was, I'd be using my orange pen instead.

As far as the Nexus is concerned only our ToS apply. If the EULA wouldn't already give discussed rights, the Nexus ToS would definitely do.

 

But as a mod author myself, personally, I can always but genuinely wonder why this keeps getting brought up wrongly and in vain.

[SplashDamage]

Speaking of copyrights, we were talking about that here yesterday (my son and i), and I was thinking along the following lines (I could be wrong here, but I'm gonna take a shot)... Because all the "mod" data in esp, esm files, in it's current format, is based on Beth's copyrighted work (whether direct or reverse engineered), said data, such as record structures, etc.,. would be theirs, but any story, art, voice recordings would would remain with the creator.

[simtam]

The playground is owned entirely by Bethesda, they're just willing to let you play in it.

That does not mean that other kids can do whatever they want with the sandcastles built; even if the playground caretaker would say so, the headmaster will stick to the long-standing school traditions.

 

BTW. you might have more luck with Fallout 4 or some other games EULAs, and even that only in some jurisdictions.

[NewRaven]

And while we are in this funny "copyright, law and such stuff" corner...

 

Well, essentially, what MP wants to do is plain and simple reverse engineering. ESPs aren't in any human readable plain text. And of course, TES5Edit does the same... WB does the same. But the difference is: users do it for their own personal use. The data they get that way isn't distributed or used in any way outside their own personal computer for their own needs. Loading these records to a server, is actually no difference to upload the complete ESP to the server. And in many cases that already is the complete working plugin. This is in no way comparable to things like file size, date or any other meta data, like some guys in this thread tried to argue. And while I personally haven't that much problem, because I know crowd data can actually solve problems, I totally can understand mod authors who think otherwise. And making statements like this https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_e2exg7K5tufcU5RzyIQpMg7n2sX1_sVWRZ1fjzAUY4 isn't helping, either. Sidenote here: I would get a second opinion from a second lawyer, if I were you, guys...

 

So with all that hassle, all the drama, all the arguments, all the decisions, all the compromises made... all the light at the end of the tunnel made in the last few hours... don't try that "we have the right to do this" route. That probably won't work out for you. Talk to each other, like you do in many threads already and try to find solutions. Without the approval of the modders, your project will be dead before it's even started, believe it or not.

Edited April 27, 2016 by NewRaven

[sunshinenbrick]

A couple of the ideas were definitely playing with fire.

[mlee3141]

By the way, based on this quote from TerrorFox1234,

 

 

Hi everyone,

 

I want to thank Dark0ne for giving me the time to talk with him privately/directly about this. He's had to spend far too much time on this given how full his plate his.

 

We have agreed to not scrape Nexus data for the time being per his request. We discussed revisiting it sometime after launch pending a good launch and smooth operation post-launch, but for now I understand his desire to wash his hands of this and focus on things like the GECK launch and site redesign (and all the other work I'm sure he has piled up on his desk).

 

It's unfortunate but it is what it is. Perhaps if the issue surrounding a questionable outdated mockup was the first and only issue it wouldn't have come to this...but I digress. We will lay in the bed we've made so to speak.

 

We are still move forward and nothing is changing. Even though we're not scraping we are not rescinding our Opt-Out statement, we are still looking for feedback and discussion, and we are still moving forward with the MA Only Beta. The only thing this changes is that mods hosted on Nexus won't have their statistical data listed on Mod Picker (i.e. download totals, endorsements, upload/update dates, etc)

 

It's been a tumultuous week but it seems the worst is over. Again, thank you Dark0ne for taking the time to speak with me and at least keep scraping on the backburner for future discussion.

 

Onward!

 

Mod Picker is essentially dead at this point.