Transgender Our rights as opposed to those who look the part.

[Marxist ßastard]

SJW

 

Alt-righter confirmed. What next, will you come in brandishing rare pepes from your favorite child porn website?

 

these people are really no more than social studies people (a subjective study) , practicing pseudoscience... there is no evidence

 

Well if you dismiss out-of-hand all findings from psychology and the other social sciences, of course there's going to be no evidence either way when you look at something under those fields' purview.

 

Personally I think this type of thinking is gonna lead to a generation of really screwed up people.

 

Really? Well where's your evidence to support that? :rolleyes:

[kvnchrist]

 

 

The thing is, your perception of yourself isn't going to change anyone elses perception of you. If you go to the ladies john, and whip out your schlong, the ladies are going to take issue with that. (the ones with the correct equipment.) Go into the mens room, and no one will even bat an eye.

 

Sure, brain scans are going to come up differently for people that have different views of themselves. I would even expect that you would get different results if you re-scanned the same folks periodically over time. (years.) That doesn't really prove anything. I would be much more interested in a comparison of blood chemistry, and the levels of selected hormones..... :smile:

 

Your sex is a physical trait. it's not something you can simply decide to change, and expect society at large to accept it. Your brain activity has absolutely nothing to do with what is between your legs, as that can't change it either.

Congradulations. You've just said the same thing I did in my original post. I never have been and never will be for making other women uncomfortable and I've never been uncomfortable in using the men's room.

 

When did I say anything about wanting others to accept me? I think you came into this conversation with a preset ideal of my attitude here and your assumptions about me are way off. I am not a liberal and I damn sure am not an activist or and advocate for anything other than common sense and that common sense tells me that transgender people will have to go the extra mile to gain acceptance in this world. We have no right to push our way into society or demand that others move over for us and I posted the OP to reflect that.

 

Kvn is right he never once said how or what he is should be imposed on another in anyway . As for the physiology of ones sex vs mind/neurology of their sex there has been differences found , but as to why or how that happens nothing concrete has ever been established.

 

In my days at University there were two studies I saw on brain development , one specifically is relateable to this thread.

 

In South-east Asia (particularly India) there is a transgender community that goes back 4000 years. So in about 1983 the Indian Gov't commissioned a study to see if their brains were any different than heterosexual people , both male and female. The study involved taking 3500 male cadaver brains (control group) , 3500 female cadaver brains (control group) and 3500 transgender brains (focus group) and slicing each section of these brains into microscope slide pieces to be studied for any structural or neurological differences , it took 12 years to complete this study. Now I can't remember all the results (so long ago) but there were both structural and neurological differences in the trans brains and the control groups of male and female and they did lean more to a female leaning (but not always). Also there was one interesting finding , when they took the results of these 3 different groups and combined the structural/neurological markers by which they made determinations of feminine/masculine , they found the percentages almost matched the poplution of Indian society at large , it was an unexpected eureka moment that they did not expect.

 

Also the above was done on adult cadaver brains and that in no way explains how it came to be , just that it does exist.

 

Now this leads to the second part . It seems we have people out there that are initiating public policy of some very spurious claims , they are generally coming from your feminists/gender/SJW study types of people and their claims are beginning to give actual scientists pause , because if you think about it these people are really no more than social studies people (a subjective study) , practicing pseudoscience. Here is a paper on actual scientists and what they have to say and a little video that has been made.

 

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/number-50-fall-2016

 

 

So as these scientists say there is no evidence on a number of things people are doing in regard to transgenderism , as in public policy or private opinion. Many just seem to be taking some bit of data and running off or making assumptions as to what it means. This is a poor way to be implementing public policy or private actions. Personally I think this type of thinking is gonna lead to a generation of really screwed up people.

 

That was awesome. Thank you very much for that. Ib was pretty much floundering on this subject.

 

It seems like there is a incredible push from people to shove transgender people into the mainstream of society and the notion that everyone who pushes back are just wrong. Frankly I'm tired of these types of people, because they do the transgender community a disservice.

 

This goes right along with my previous post on the authoritarian left. It is these types of people who claim to be championing something that they neither understand or care about. They are like the politicians who start wars and then step back and let others fight them. They also spur on those who are too young to understand the benefits of the progressive movement and most importantly the greatest thing we have in this world, which is the freedom of speech.

 

You have young people out there who are simply falling apart because they haven't been taught the coping skills that will get them through rough patches in life and these are the ones you stand around demanding instant gratification for every social issue that springs into being. I remember reading some trach for a left wing paper demonizing others for not allowing transgender people to use the restrooms of the sex they identify with. They said it could do ireputable harm to them and that is simply B.S.

 

Nobody has a mental meltdown because they use a bathroom and if they do it's not because they are transgender, but have mental problems or they are spoiled rotten little children who think only for themselves and what what they want.

[JimboUK]

 

 

 

 

If my mind tells me I'm a banana it doesn't actually make me one.

I'm not going down this road with you guys if you are going to reach to the extremes with this. We are talking about human beings here. To take this into the realm of fruit is simply disrespect for the issue. I'm sorry that some of you can't understand this, but I'm not advocating it, just trying to explain what it is.

 

My original post was about disrespecting women who look the part and those, like me but only think of themselves. I think I've made myself clear here.

 

 

It's a fact, have we really got the stage now where anyone pointing out an inconvenient fact is extreme? and the use of banana is merely to make a point, respect doesn't come into it.

[kvnchrist]

 

 

 

 

 

If my mind tells me I'm a banana it doesn't actually make me one.

I'm not going down this road with you guys if you are going to reach to the extremes with this. We are talking about human beings here. To take this into the realm of fruit is simply disrespect for the issue. I'm sorry that some of you can't understand this, but I'm not advocating it, just trying to explain what it is.

 

My original post was about disrespecting women who look the part and those, like me but only think of themselves. I think I've made myself clear here.

 

 

It's a fact, have we really got the stage now where anyone pointing out an inconvenient fact is extreme? and the use of banana is merely to make a point, respect doesn't come into it.

 

The total abandonment of context and the use of absurdities is is taking things to the extreame. We are talking about sentient beings describing what is familiar to them and to reach out beyond that to try to prove any point is just grasping at straws.

 

You can tell that you feel that your mid is of a person of the opposite sex from your bodyb because you yern to be that sex. You identify with that sex in every way posible. the cothes, the lifestyle, the activities, even at a young age. This is not some notion that suddenly engulfs you. It is a continual pull towards ever facet of feminity and revoltion to that which you physically are.

[Brutii]

I was going to write some kind of refutation to half of this because it paints a very dystopian picture of our society, even by my cynical standards. I really can't be bothered this late. So I'll simply say that our modern society is really very equal and its very hard to find anything that resembles legal inequality, barring a few professions that are only open to men due to purely physical reasons. Even socially it's really not that cut and dry; for example a man with 3 girlfriends would probably just be seen as a cheating bastard and would run the risk of being slapped by each girl if they figured out. If all three girls new and it was a polygamous relationship then it would probably just be seen as weird by everyone. Our culture holds the monogamy thing to be quite important. Sure, there are some sexists still just as there are some racists but in general our culture and society, at least where I live, just really isn't .

 

Historically, it really depends on which culture, which point in history etc. There have been some pretty damn equal societies out there. I don't mean to challenge you in the fact that there have been (an embarrassingly considerable number of) times when women have been given the short end of the stick, I just want to be fair to our forerunners. As it turns out, some of them were pretty great guys and girls and it's rather condescending of us to judge them all by the actions of some of them. Yes, there were cultures which were total dicks to their women but there were also cultures where this was not the case and some, such as Anglo Saxon England, were actually quite gender equal (Class distinction was much more important.) The major problem is that everybody loves to hate the past, I think its in part because we want to feel superior to our predecessors.

 

On to the actual point of the thread: As far as I care, whether you can go into a women's bathroom or whether the inverse is the case and women who have transitioned start waltzing into the men's bathroom is really not an issue. As long as nobody is sticking their head through the cubicle door or staring over the edge of the urinal I couldn't care any less. Go do your business somewhere and be done with it, why does it matter? It's a source of amusement to me that where people are going to dump their bodily wastes is seen as an issue by anyone.

Honestly, can the west just have a quick reality check and rally to deal with more pressing matters, like the countless starving people, the chilling number of children without any access to education, the staggering number of people who have to live without clean water, the many sweatshops all around the world, the slow destruction of our planets ecosystem, the ticking time bomb that is our world economy, the crazy terrorists and the civil wars? No? The bathroom issue is really so pressing? Okay then.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Brutii

[kvnchrist]

I was going to write some kind of refutation to half of this because it paints a very dystopian picture of our society, even by my cynical standards. I really can't be bothered this late. So I'll simply say that our modern society is really very equal and its very hard to find anything that resembles legal inequality, barring a few professions that are only open to men due to purely physical reasons. Even socially it's really not that cut and dry; for example a man with 3 girlfriends would probably just be seen as a cheating bastard and would run the risk of being slapped by each girl if they figured out. If all three girls new and it was a polygamous relationship then it would probably just be seen as weird by everyone. Our culture holds the monogamy thing to be quite important. Sure, there are some sexists still just as there are some racists but in general our culture and society, at least where I live, just really isn't .

 

Historically, it really depends on which culture, which point in history etc. There have been some pretty damn equal societies out there. I don't mean to challenge you in the fact that there have been (an embarrassingly considerable number of) times when women have been given the short end of the stick, I just want to be fair to our forerunners. As it turns out, some of them were pretty great guys and girls and it's rather condescending of us to judge them all by the actions of some of them. Yes, there were cultures which were total dicks to their women but there were also cultures where this was not the case and some, such as Anglo Saxon England, were actually quite gender equal (Class distinction was much more important.) The major problem is that everybody loves to hate the past, I think its in part because we want to feel superior to our predecessors.

 

On to the actual point of the thread: As far as I care, whether you can go into a women's bathroom or whether the inverse is the case and women who have transitioned start waltzing into the men's bathroom is really not an issue. As long as nobody is sticking their head through the cubicle door or staring over the edge of the urinal I couldn't care any less. Go do your business somewhere and be done with it, why does it matter? It's a source of amusement to me that where people are going to dump their bodily wastes is seen as an issue by anyone.

Honestly, can the west just have a quick reality check and rally to deal with more pressing matters, like the countless starving people, the chilling number of children without any access to education, the staggering number of people who have to live without clean water, the many sweatshops all around the world, the slow destruction of our planets ecosystem, the ticking time bomb that is our world economy, the crazy terrorists and the civil wars? No? The bathroom issue is really so pressing? Okay then.

This sounds like a Long winded attempt at sneering at others.. Is that your intent?

[TheMastersSon]

IMO NC's push amounts to enslavement. I haven't read this entire discussion so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but 1 in every 1000 human births is hermaphroditic, born with both sets of sexual organs, and delivering physicians make a best-guess decision on dominant gender. Unsurprisingly, the choice is often ambiguous and incorrect decisions are made.

 

So the feelings of some, of being trapped in the bodies of the opposite gender, are not just a mental phenomenon. These people really are stuck in the bodies of the opposite gender, and transgender surgery amounts to corrective not elective imo.

 

As for restrooms, I call NC's law slavery because imo people should not be tied their entire lives to an incorrect decision they had absolutely nothing to do with or even say about. For that reason alone, not to mention our 14th and 5th Amendments (or what remain of them in our country), their new law will be tossed if it hasn't been already. The bottom line with any civil law is mutual consideration, and people use restrooms the same way they use everything else: in accordance with this consideration.

Edited August 25, 2016 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

IMO NC's push amounts to enslavement. I haven't read this entire discussion so apologies if it's already been mentioned, but 1 in every 1000 human births is hermaphroditic, born with both sets of sexual organs, and delivering physicians make a best-guess decision on dominant gender. Unsurprisingly, the choice is often ambiguous and incorrect decisions are made.

 

So the feelings of some, of being trapped in the bodies of the opposite gender, are not just a mental phenomenon. These people really are stuck in the bodies of the opposite gender, and transgender surgery amounts to corrective not elective imo.

 

As for restrooms, I call NC's law slavery because imo people should not be tied their entire lives to an incorrect decision they had absolutely nothing to do with or even say about. For that reason alone, not to mention our 14th and 5th Amendments (or what remain of them in our country), their new law will be tossed if it hasn't been already. The bottom line with any civil law is mutual consideration, and people use restrooms the same way they use everything else: in accordance with this consideration.

Your reasoning applies to .1% of the population. Catering to them infringes on the rights of the other 99.9%. So, whose rights are more important? A tiny fraction of the population? Or, the vast majority of the population?

 

And I question your 1 in a 1000 as well. What I am seeing is .03 to .05% of births..... (3 to 5 of 10,000......) Which skews the numbers even more dramatically.

Edited August 25, 2016 by HeyYou

[TheMastersSon]

The answer to your first question is that second class citizen status is disallowed for anyone in our country. Our 14th and 5th Amendments prohibit it. Numbers don't matter, as long as enough (i.e. more than one) hermaphrodites exist to form a legal class, it's "enough".

 

But your other point is well noted. Estimates I've read ranged from 0.02 to .17% of human births. So I use .1% as a ballpark between the two. But again it's not as though it's ok to violate the rights of any number of people, as long as it's not that many. It's how a lot of other countries operate, that don't have things like equal protection and due process laws.

 

I honestly don't understand defense of NC's law. If it's come down to America not even being able to use a restroom without this goverment mandated nonsense, imo there's either nothing or extremely close to nothing left to save. Land of the Free, and you're under arrest for using the wrong bathroom. Good God. Does nothing whatsoever remain of personal responsibility and mutual consideration in our country?

 

Here's a question nobody has manged to answer yet: please explain under what circumstance this new law can be enforced? Is NC planning to install birth certificate checkers in all public restrooms? Or does it amount simply to additional legal harassment of transgendered people?

Edited August 25, 2016 by TheMastersSon

[sunshinenbrick]

In most public places I simply do not see it being a problem at all. Maybe 'new' for some at first but it would very soon just feel normal. The issues arise in areas where people feel strongly about it. It's stoking a fire. But that is not to say there are not a lot of fires being stoked right now. This is just one bonfire in our new brave world of wicker men.

 

Personally I don't have an issue with unisex bathrooms at all. In fact I feel safer in them (like the ones at festivals or airports n stuff). There is none of the unproductive um... 'hierarchy' shite, and as long as the facilities are safe, clean, and relatively... you know... private :D. What I DO have a problem with however, is the methods and tactics used to introduce such ideas. It is like they do it because they know it will cause conflict.

 

I think a good majority of people (considering the high densities that live in cities) don't actually worry about or even have time to worry about generally trivial matters when they gotta worry about keeping their job, making the bills, looking after their kids and putting food on the table. Especially when many places are quite public already with CCTV or other such surveillance anyway. The thing is that just by making a big fuss about the law and the fear-mongering that follows, it just turns the whole thing into a much larger issue - much like the case with many other things.. and again I'm not sure it isn't always an 'unforeseen consequence'.