obvious plot gap is really horrifically obvious now.

[minngarm]

Not sure, I tried it a few times and it put me in china each lol, but yea I see where your saying, that would probably trickle down to a small river/stream with a bit of bog to each side since its on the lake end of the dam. Wouldnt be to far from the legion encampment either, they would have some difficulty getting into vegas in force there, as I imagine those roadways are all torn up, and the terrains quite rough on the north side. But its a quick crossing they could build up on, nice find Model.

 

 

a lot of rough terrain to cross to get to the Northshore road and then to vegas though. If luck holds they would make it and push the NCR out, but if they were caught by a patrol that assuming managed to report it, they wouldnt be any better off than before the Dam was destroyed.

 

EDIT: after studying that map a bit more, it would put the front either just south of the boomers or smack dab on camp golf again. Wonder if Caesar used that route previously when Golf was the front line?'

 

 

EDIT again: Working on that map Ive gotten as close as I can get google to give an idea of a modern day route for it http://maps.google.com/maps?q=36.151737,-114.560051&hl=en&ll=36.151737,-114.561653&spn=0.154133,0.314827&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.638819,80.595703&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=12

 

If the roads were there before the war, assuming they were not made unpassable its a days march from the encampment to the fording (roughly obviously) Then another half day at least to get a sizeable force acrossed the fording, probably a full day to get a makeshift bridge up for use as well.

 

Now assuming they can make the rocky terrain and stream beds on the north end work in their favor, well give it another day, maybe two to cross that and get on the NSR, from there your 5 hours march from the junction youd need to decide to strike Golf, or the AFB, but would Caesar know about the AFB and its inhabitants? If he does it would be the wiser choice to take first due to the artillary and aircraft they can field against him. If not, the same route is straight to vegas itself which would demoralize the enemy.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=36.151737,-114.560051&hl=en&ll=36.151737,-114.561653&spn=0.154133,0.314827&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.638819,80.595703&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=12

 

So within 3 hours to camp golf or 5 hours to Nellis/Vegas, and thats the same junction the NCR would have to fortify to hold him off. Would be fairly easy with artillary, but that all comes down to seeing him coming that way first, which is still 50/50.

Edited October 9, 2011 by minngarm

[ModelV]

Well minngarm the question should be can the NCR troopers in Baja get to the front lines before the Legion can? Same with any reinforcements in California i can easily the Legion them getting all the way to the Mojave outpost and knocking it down. Since the idea is to blow up both Vegas and the dam i think the only NCR outposts left would have to be camp golf(Where all the rejects and near retired rangers go) and the ranger station which may be able to send reports back to the NCR command in cali but wouldnt be able to put up a fight until they regrouped back at the Mojave outpost(which is also a survivor along with the squad at primm and searchlight maybe)

 

All the Legion really need to do is start marching to the Mojave outpost as other then wild life(which can be almost entirely avoided if you take the correct roads) they wont find much resistance if any. Sure if all the ranger stations regroup their they might be able to hold the line for a bit but not for long when the Legion starts coming in force.

[minngarm]

Right, but weve forgotten two key things on the NCR side. First is the troops from Baja, at least the elite of them were already on the way to the Mojave, as they fight at the dam battle at the end. So they would be arriving after the nuking. 2nd The trains.

 

NCR had the prisoners moved to clear and lay track all the way to New Vegas, this stands to reason track is cleared up to a certain point either at the compound, the mojave outpost, or slightly behind that. While they never did bother to add working trains to the game, thats more of a performance/gameplay thing rather than a lack of access or production.

 

So were looking at a large intact logistics network that can at the worst ferry troops and supplies from any part of the NCR to another in a matter of a day or two. Then at the best could drop those troops just out of Mojave outpost in a similar timeframe.

 

Now theres still a good chance Caesar could have taken the Mojave by then, but when were looking at Fallout yield nukes, were talking about the Dam and Vegas + Freeside being gone and not much else. Which would leave Golf, and Maccaren(sp) as well as the Boomers intact. Probably even Hope.

[ModelV]

Hope would get washed away by the damn, Boomers dont matter they arent NCR they are neutral, The guys from the Baja get to cali at around level 25 when your supposed to enter the Divide and thus they would be at the dam saying they never moved in actually lessened the blow against you, the rangers many stay at Hope and the Dam when this happens so then they would be dead, McCarren doesnt have enough troops to stop the Legion where they are standing and the Legion could just ignore them if the nuke didnt hit them, the only defensible position the NCR could hold is the mojave outpost.

 

This whole thing just pushes the NCR out of the Mojave and possibly farther.

 

Anyway weve already proven that this wouldnt do what you said it would do at the beginning of the thread it doesnt cause a stalemate or make both sides leave so why are we still arguing?

Edited October 11, 2011 by ModelV

[minngarm]

Thats all still assuming Caesar is not caught trying to ford the river, or his advanced force is pushed back to the fording. Which would result in a stalemate still. I think it would basicly cause the same situation as before nuking the Dam, just without any primary motivation for the NCR to hold the area. And by choosing to leave the Mojave, the NCR would save more soldiers as they undoubtably would have better fortifications on their own borders than out in the Mojave.

[ModelV]

So there is no neutral benefit in nuking it then...It just makes the NCR retreat and let the Legion take over whats left of Vegas.

[minngarm]

The benefit still stands that it takes away the bulk of the interest in the region (on the none Legion side of course.) It leaves a vast desert with nothing of real value between the Legion strongholds and those of the NCR. This is not to downplay the counter points everyones brought up about the people who LIVE in the Mojave, and how much it will destroy/hurt them.

[ModelV]

But that isnt true. The Legion's interest isnt solely New Vegas its destroying the NCR they would just keep going and take over the remaining towns then attack the NCR on a different line. It destroys the faction's interests because there isnt anything left in the area and that can only be said for the NCR.

[Groogo]

From a military point of view thinking that a river would stop an advance is extremely naive and the Colorado river is not very big. Armies have been crossing much larger rivers for ten thousand years with much less resources and technology then Legion or the NCR posses. Hannibal crossed the Alps in several meters of snow and sheer cliffs of thousands of meters of height in 220 BC. He used manpower, fire and vinegar to accomplish it and even crossed with over 20 of his elephants. That task would be close to impossible to duplicate even today. You considerably underestimate the military engineering capabilities of both factions. Not to mention that it would take an extremely evil or ignorant character to destroy such a valuable asset to mankind as the Hoover dam and it would not come anywhere near you're character's stated goals.

Livy wrote accounts on the route Hannibal with his elephants took across the Alps to get into Italy from Spain. To get the elephants to cross the water of the Rhone River, which was on the route, Hannibal had rafts built that kept the elephants unaware that they had left terra firma. Only about 2 dozen elephants survived the trek across the Alps.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Groogo

[laclongquan]

There's a thing that you newcomers prolly would never understand it in your bone: water is life.

 

To a character in Fallout setting the act of destroying the Dam is utterly unthinkable. Water is life.

 

The Dam is holding the greatest source of clean water in known world (fallout). No other come close. Even the Midwestern or the East Coast. West Coast? In their wet dream. They get their water from water purification chips.

 

The electricity that the Dam provide is just the facade of power, the obvious resource that New Vegas want, NCR want. The water is what NCR immigrants want, to make farms and to live. THAT is why a huge wave of them come calling to the desert.

 

The Dam represent both a power source, and a great invasion route into and out of Colorado East. The Legion want to control it to defend, they dont care about electricity or water much. The NCR want it for all it provide: electric, water, and invasion route for their expansion drive.

 

Destroy it is anathema to NCR. Dude, a big faction of NCR are a collection of water merchants, ie the people who sell water. Contaminate the biggest source of clean water? They will put a bounty on the responsible party so high every bounty hunter will be after your ass. If Caesar order it they will raise a crusade to burn him alive.

 

Legion shouldnt want to do it, because nuke the Dam mean every tribe downstream of Colorado get their fortune destroyed. They will not have a route to expand into Colorado West.

 

In Fallout 1 lack of water is why the Vault Dweller have to go out into the wasteland, hire a water caravan to trade with V13, and ultimately be exposed to The Master. In Fallout 2 the drought savage Arroyo and push Chosen One to go finding GECK. Even in FNV, with Hardcore ON, lack of water mean death.

 

Why on this fallen earth would anyone want to nuke the Dam?

Edited March 19, 2013 by laclongquan