Future of EU...

[Aurielius]

In university I studied the Fall of Rome and one of the great curiosities is that for 50 or so years after it had fallen and in the provinces outside of Rome for about 100 years , life continued on pretty much as normal . The Romans had built infrastructure that was built to last and people not knowing what else to do just continued on thinking someone would come along and take over or it would somehow fix itself , but when those things that had been built to last started to break down , that was when people began to accept it was truly over.

 

Hmm.... we must have studied different collapses of the Roman Empire. With Alaric's sack of the city in 410AD the western Med fell into the hands of the Visigoths who fought for expansion of their territory for 97 years until they ran afoul of the Franks. Gaul descended into chaos after the sack of Rome and was quickly subsumed by the Franks who were in constant war with their ex friends across the Rhine and the Vandals to the south in Iberia. Without the empire most Gallo-Roman, Britania-Roman infrastructure collapsed / degenerated within 50 years.Only the Eastern Roman Empire maintained any stability of infrastructure post sack of Rome.

The didn't call this period the beginning Dark Ages for nothing.

[sunshinenbrick]

It is curious how we actually seem to be collectively seeking a kind of 'Dark Ages' of our own, after all our 'Enlightenment'. Perhaps it is all just too much to bear as empires crumble and transform.

 

Interesting to consider that perhaps it is the circles of knowledge that got smaller, and not necessarily the knowledge itself.

[Harbringe]

 

In university I studied the Fall of Rome and one of the great curiosities is that for 50 or so years after it had fallen and in the provinces outside of Rome for about 100 years , life continued on pretty much as normal . The Romans had built infrastructure that was built to last and people not knowing what else to do just continued on thinking someone would come along and take over or it would somehow fix itself , but when those things that had been built to last started to break down , that was when people began to accept it was truly over.

 

Hmm.... we must have studied different collapses of the Roman Empire. With Alaric's sack of the city in 410AD the western Med fell into the hands of the Visigoths who fought for expansion of their territory for 97 years until they ran afoul of the Franks. Gaul descended into chaos after the sack of Rome and was quickly subsumed by the Franks who were in constant war with their ex friends across the Rhine and the Vandals to the south in Iberia. Without the empire most Gallo-Roman, Britania-Roman infrastructure collapsed / degenerated within 50 years.Only the Eastern Roman Empire maintained any stability of infrastructure post sack of Rome.

The didn't call this period the beginning Dark Ages for nothing.

 

 

No it was the same one but was focused on the socoilogical impact of common people and how they thought and felt about the events going on in the aftermath of Romes fall and how so many of them just continued on believing/hoping that it wasn't over . There were some places in the Roman provinces where the last of the functioning aqueducts/sewage etc took almost a hundred years to fully break down. Other places broke down quicker because they were looted/burned/people killed or carted off. What we studied wasn't about the political/military events but the impact on normal people living at that time. Its like studying how the romans who remained in Britain after Rome left , how did they adapt.

 

Which actually makes the point. The Franks,Gauls,Visigoths are all struggling over the corpse of Rome and there are still people holding onto something like the water an aquaduct brings and when it finally breaks they realize its truly over because no one knows how to fix it and the Dark ages come . This didn't happen all at once in every place , different rate depending on what happened , but in the end the Dark Ages came. Europeans seem to be acting like those people in many cases.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Harbringe

[Aurielius]

 

 

In university I studied the Fall of Rome and one of the great curiosities is that for 50 or so years after it had fallen and in the provinces outside of Rome for about 100 years , life continued on pretty much as normal . The Romans had built infrastructure that was built to last and people not knowing what else to do just continued on thinking someone would come along and take over or it would somehow fix itself , but when those things that had been built to last started to break down , that was when people began to accept it was truly over.

 

Hmm.... we must have studied different collapses of the Roman Empire. With Alaric's sack of the city in 410AD the western Med fell into the hands of the Visigoths who fought for expansion of their territory for 97 years until they ran afoul of the Franks. Gaul descended into chaos after the sack of Rome and was quickly subsumed by the Franks who were in constant war with their ex friends across the Rhine and the Vandals to the south in Iberia. Without the empire most Gallo-Roman, Britania-Roman infrastructure collapsed / degenerated within 50 years.Only the Eastern Roman Empire maintained any stability of infrastructure post sack of Rome.

The didn't call this period the beginning Dark Ages for nothing.

 

 

No it was the same one but was focused on the socoilogical impact of common people and how they thought and felt about the events going on in the aftermath of Romes fall and how so many of them just continued on believing/hoping that it wasn't over . There were some places in the Roman provinces where the last of the functioning aqueducts/sewage etc took almost a hundred years to fully break down. Other places broke down quicker because they were looted/burned/people killed or carted off. What we studied wasn't about the political/military events but the impact on normal people living at that time. Its like studying how the romans who remained in Britain after Rome left , how did they adapt.

 

Which actually makes the point. The Franks,Gauls,Visigoths are all struggling over the corpse of Rome and there are still people holding onto something like the water an aquaduct brings and when it finally breaks they realize its truly over because no one knows how to fix it and the Dark ages come . This didn't happen all at once in every place , different rate depending on what happened , but in the end the Dark Ages came. Europeans seem to be acting like those people in many cases.

 

I'll concede that the social implications of the collapse had somewhat of a delayed effect on the provinces. Also that some engineering projects endured such as the complex at Bath. The surviving engineering fragments unfortunately had to stay out of the path of incessant warfare, but a few managed. We just view history through different prisms.

[sunshinenbrick]

All roads lead to Rome.

[Signette]

I'm sure you guys follow the news, especially ones from Germany, very disturbing to say the least. And it looks like all attacks basically had same origin or motive more or less. I wonder, how long should it take, and what else must happen for society to wake up and acklowledge the problem to start dealing with it?...

[Alecu]

It's impossible to control everything and know that absolutely every person is sane and has no mental issues. Just one of these persons can get in contact with this crazy terrorism organization and do something bad.

 

I don't see any way to prevent these sort of attacks and make everyone happy. It's either stop accepting refugees completely and deport all the existing ones or accept them and live with the consequences. So the EU has pretty much 2 choices: condemn the refugees or put their own people at risk.

 

A third option would be to put surveillance everywhere and spy on everyone, but that would invade privacy too much.

 

There are good reasons to support either approach, to allow refugees or to stop them. By stopping them you are protecting your own people. By letting them in you are doing the humane thing for them.

 

But maybe there might be a third long term approach. Help them but in their own countries. Stabilize their situation in their countries. Help educate them. Get some sort of industry and economy running in their countries. They must have something to produce and export to other countries so that they can make money. I think this what all the western countries are trying to do. But this is a really long term goal of at least 50 years or more.

[sunshinenbrick]

Surveillance seems to be the way things will go everywhere, not just in the EU. Many terrorists are 'homegrown', and have lived there for many years, even from a young age.

Although the attacks are horrible, they have their roots in the West's failure all round to deal with the ideologies. Nothing will cease till then because it will actually just add fuel to the fire. It is not like Europe, UK and US don't employ a similar ideology either and it is well known that they have exasperated, perhaps even caused, many of the problems that have arisen recently. Not so much the individual, but the expansive globalist empire that has been created, and gone wrong in many ways.

I think inside many of us can see that terrorists can be a great scapegoat for the failures of government. I would not be surprised to see an increase in 'native terrorism' if these atrocities were not there to release the pressure - or, to coin their favourite term, bring 'solidarity'.

[Signette]

I honestly don't think surveillance can help this problem one bit, too many possibilities, it's just impossible to monitor absolutely everyone and everything.

 

In my opinion, the only way to solve this, is to just depart all this population into their homelands (or homelands of their ancestors), and that's really isn't "condemnation", it's actually can be considered as a life saving measure, for both peoples. I'm not saying refugees from war ridden Syria should be sent back in war, but to organize specific temporary zones with all comforts, hard surveillance and isolated from main population until things in Syria settle down for them to be sent back. Other refugees (maybe in few generations past) from countries like Iran or Algeria and the rest not suffering from war can freely return to their homelands, where they hopefully shouldn't have any motivation to do same things they do in Europe.

 

There's really another thing I don't clearly understand. What Europe hopes to do with this people in the perspective? From many reports it seems like they tend to live by their old customs in majority, which isn't bad thing, but it's completely alien for Europe and native pop will never willingly convert into those customs and beliefs. Level of real integration seems pretty low. Those two cultures simply can't co-exist, because one trying to convert another, and it's a problem, because they live in foreign land where certain customs are pretty much set in stone, along with certain freedoms of individual, which is unacceptable for many eastern people and the get deeply offended by it, but still keep living there... Doesn't it say something about their motives?

 

It may be a biased opinion, but I don't think that EU government is so blind and doesn't see this, I believe they pushing all this tolerance and humaneness agenda because business is making lots of money on those refugees, and there are many ways to make profits out of them, but I don't understand how EU people can buy into this horsecrap and be blind to real problem snowballing their way?...

Edited July 29, 2016 by Signette

[kvnchrist]

Has anyone ever thought of forcing the local mosques to pay for the funerals and have those going there physically bury the bodies. Or track the killers back to the Moscues they last frequented and do the same.

 

I'm sure after a while those people will start being more vigilant on who they have in there.

 

These people have to have a place to worship and a place to plan these attacks. If you make the community responsible for cleaning up the mess they might be more interested in the new guys that keep to themselves.