Future of EU...

[JimboUK]

 

 

 

 

It is 'Western' involvement that has displaced these people however. Our luxurious lives of low cost energy, consumables and health care come at a price... a price many seem unwilling to pay. You can't have your cake and eat it.

How so?

I think you answered part of that question in your reply above. Regarding the cake... apart from it being a lie ( :laugh:) what makes us think we are so entitled to it? And why should others not be able to try have a piece?

 

It's a political choice rather than the 'ethical' one we are sold on TV. It's this false choice that irritates me so about the UK referendum.

 

Maybe things have no ethical value anymore... but then at least call it for what it is.

 

 

The choice is anything but false, for many it's the first vote where they can actually change something, sadly if they vote remain it'll be the last one.

 

 

 

 

By false I don't mean it won't have an impact, but rather that it won't have the impact people are being led to believe it would. What people are being made to believe they are voting for is not what they will get. Of course we could say this about both sides of the choice but it still misplaces people's hopes.

 

For example immigration is likely to stay the same either way and if it does decrease it will be for all the reasons people wouldn't want it to happen - a failing economy. Cuts to public spending is a capitalist idea and has little to do with where people come from. 'Sovereignty' is an idea that basically is defunct in our modern world (pushed by most politicians) and we should actually see ourselves as migrants within our own country. Also there is not a long leap from stopping benefits to migrants and the 'native' population. Another interesting thing to note is that being sent to war as a soldier is also a type of migration... suppose then at least the numbers would go down...

 

The decisions made by the EU have been in large part actually spear-headed by the UK and the self-interested suited bureaucrats that we spawned into existence along with the USA back in the 80's. These people are not interested in our quality of life in either case, they just want the decision to be 'ours' so they can pass the blame if and when it all comes crashing down.

Whatever happens it will be spun until we don't know what is up or down. This is the plan and why the whole thing is a façade. Excuse my French :D

 

 

Changing who governs you is a massive change, at the moment we have no say in who governs us, we only get to choose who manages on behalf of the government in Brussels, one we have no way of removing. Immigration can and will change, we can adopt an Australian points style system where only those we need can come in, in fact we can have whatever system we like because we'll once again control our own country. EU decisions have not been spearheaded by the UK, in fact quite the opposite, we opposed much of what has come out of Brussels, it's not done us any good mind you because we have next to no influence.

 

Look up Tony Benn's Five Questions and apply them to the EU, specifically four and five.

 

Big business is what influences the EU, the mountains of regulations designed to keep the small guys small, the free movement of people that drives down wages and protection of the banks at the expense of the people, just ask the Greeks about that one.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

 

 

 

 

It is 'Western' involvement that has displaced these people however. Our luxurious lives of low cost energy, consumables and health care come at a price... a price many seem unwilling to pay. You can't have your cake and eat it.

How so?

I think you answered part of that question in your reply above. Regarding the cake... apart from it being a lie ( :laugh:) what makes us think we are so entitled to it? And why should others not be able to try have a piece?

 

It's a political choice rather than the 'ethical' one we are sold on TV. It's this false choice that irritates me so about the UK referendum.

 

Maybe things have no ethical value anymore... but then at least call it for what it is.

 

 

The choice is anything but false, for many it's the first vote where they can actually change something, sadly if they vote remain it'll be the last one.

 

 

 

 

By false I don't mean it won't have an impact, but rather that it won't have the impact people are being led to believe it would. What people are being made to believe they are voting for is not what they will get. Of course we could say this about both sides of the choice but it still misplaces people's hopes.

 

For example immigration is likely to stay the same either way and if it does decrease it will be for all the reasons people wouldn't want it to happen - a failing economy. Cuts to public spending is a capitalist idea and has little to do with where people come from. 'Sovereignty' is an idea that basically is defunct in our modern world (pushed by most politicians) and we should actually see ourselves as migrants within our own country. Also there is not a long leap from stopping benefits to migrants and the 'native' population. Another interesting thing to note is that being sent to war as a soldier is also a type of migration... suppose then at least the numbers would go down...

 

The decisions made by the EU have been in large part actually spear-headed by the UK and the self-interested suited bureaucrats that we spawned into existence along with the USA back in the 80's. These people are not interested in our quality of life in either case, they just want the decision to be 'ours' so they can pass the blame if and when it all comes crashing down.

Whatever happens it will be spun until we don't know what is up or down. This is the plan and why the whole thing is a façade. Excuse my French :D

 

 

Changing who governs you is a massive change, at the moment we have no say in who governs us, we only get to choose who manages on behalf of the government in Brussels, one we have no way of removing. Immigration can and will change, we can adopt an Australian points style system where only those we need can come in, in fact we can have whatever system we like because we'll once again control our own country. EU decisions have not been spearheaded by the UK, in fact quite the opposite, we opposed much of what has come out of Brussels, it's not done us any good mind you because we have next to no influence.

 

Look up Tony Benn's Five Questions and apply them to the EU, specifically four and five.

 

Big business is what influences the EU, the mountains of regulations designed to keep the small guys small, the free movement of people that drives down wages and protection of the banks at the expense of the people, just ask the Greeks about that one.

 

 

I edited my previous post with 'points' (pardon the pun) on this so-called system. Social engineering/cleansing is all that is.

 

Britain was no more a democratic country before, less so even especially for average people like you and me. People the world over are frustrated and outraged about many of the same things, but being an 'independent' country (which is a laughable concept) has nothing to do with it. The world is global, 2008 made everybody who wasn't, fully aware that it is. The companies and practices you speak of, most go through the City of London, the world's biggest casino and money launderer.

 

No, leaving the EU will do little to change this, and if we need any more proof then just look at the line-up of who will be left running the country. Greece brought on many of it's own problems, much like what we do actually, and was a result of much larger economic machines than the EU, which I have already alluded to. If we think austerity with other countries their to bail you out is bad, then imagine what it would be like on your own. And I can assure you it would most definitely not be any fairer on the average working/middle class citizen.

[Mirocu]

jim_uk, on 20 Jun 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

 

Rethrain, on 20 Jun 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

There was nothing to counter, buddy. He gave no logic, he keeps giving no logic. He's simply being propagandistic and absurd.

 

One can be debating all they want, and that's fine, they are entitled to that, just as I'm entitled to do so myself, whether I disagree or not that is matter for debate, fair is fair. But buddy, this isn't a rally. I don't need propaganda. It's a debate.

 

His point is that what started off a trading block has morphed into something quite different, if you knew anything about the subject you'd have known what he meant.

 

Pretty much this. I´m surprised that needed to be highlighted.

 

My way of posting may not be the best in a debate, but I´m trying to make people think as to why I write what I write and post the videos I post. I try to encourage anyone to seek out info themselves, and look at things from a non-mainstream media point of view, as I have a tendency to 'write half and just think the rest'. I do this all the time in real life, but it doesn´t mean I haven´t pondered and considered things thouroughly. I just happen to be a bad presenter. Plus, English is my second language and political lingo is such a pain for me.

 

No one but the elite politicians and business men benefit from this monstrously huge project. If you´re not part of that elite then you don´t benefit. You´ll only get more regulations and taxes and I for one think that should stop asap.

 

 

Edit: And just for that, here is another video: BREXIT and The End of The European Union EXPLAINED by WeAreChange. Runtime 2:12

Edited June 20, 2016 by Mirocu

[sunshinenbrick]

So exactly what is the alternative and how would it work?

 

People really believe we would ever stop the elite taxing the rest? Without violent revolution? And that the powers of our establishment and royal heritage would actually want to give it to us. Did anyone here do any history? Most of those in the elite are of European decent anyway. Madness...

 

These things need to change true, but splitting up the peasants will actually work to our disadvantage and take us back into a kind of modern dark ages. The global economic powers and inequality is not really much to do with the EU and it is even the socialist values of its people that are the victims.

 

What next.. break up NATO? To what end? Some illusion of independence and to be overtaken and eventually ruled by other rising powers that share little of our values or common interest.

[Rethrain]

@Mirocu

Very well, I clearly overreacted. Don't worry about the lingo, I'm pretty sure people that are native English speakers wouldn't generally know them either. And seeing as it isn't my first language either, I don't feel like holding that against anyone.

 

 

That aside, I'm pretty much agreeing with Sunshinebrick. Was meaning to say that yesterday and for some time... Might as well say it now.

[Harbringe]

If your in the remain camp you should really watch this.

 

 

 

 

So exactly what is the alternative and how would it work?

People really believe we would ever stop the elite taxing the rest? Without violent revolution? And that the powers of our establishment and royal heritage would actually want to give it to us. Did anyone here do any history? Most of those in the elite are of European decent anyway. Madness...

These things need to change true, but splitting up the peasants will actually work to our disadvantage and take us back into a kind of modern dark ages. The global economic powers and inequality is not really much to do with the EU and it is even the socialist values of its people that are the victims.

What next.. break up NATO? To what end? Some illusion of independence and to be overtaken and eventually ruled by other rising powers that share little of our values or common interest.

 

 

Ok do you really believe these European Elites are not already running the EU . If the elites are already a problem within the British framework (in which you can directly vote for someone to do something about it) , how does having elites within a EU framework (in which you cannot vote for someone to do something about it) make any sense . Thats just doubling down on the madness. The true madness is your willing to trade one where you can try to change it for one where you can't. Your argument is very defeatist , its basically "we can't do anything about elitists taxing the hell out of us anyway , so lets just give em more power and hope they abide by some social values of the EU". Seriously that is just terrible reasoning.

 

Also that you think the EU has nothing to do with economic inequality and that the socialist values of the people are of any import to them is just mind bending . An example of what happened to Greece will serve to illustrate this.

 

Greece originally had a approx 19 billion US failure of payment on their debt (technical default) , but they also had debt IOU's of just over 9 billion US from other countries as asset holdings. So Greece was trying to renegotiate thru the EU with the banks (IMF,World Bank , etc) to alleviate the situation and they had wiggle room because they held 9 billion US of other countires money. Then comes in Goldman Sachs (who actually were there along because they have people who sit on all the boards of organizations like the IMF or the World Bank) and they say to Greece if you allow us to acquire the 9 billion of other countries money you hold we can facilitate this debt renegotiation and we will ever throw in a couple extra hundred million and buy it at a premium . Greece goes back to negotiating thinking their troubles will be over. Goldman Sachs does something entirely different . They take the 9 billion of IOU's and leverage against it to approx 50 billion and then take that money and bet short against Greek debt (other banks once they realized what was happening also piled on) . Meanwhile Greece is using that 9+ billion given to them trying to go long on their own debt (basically putting money down to show in long term they are good for their debt) , but because others were shorting them the borrowing rates on the 19 billion they were in default with kept going up and up and up and they couldn't keep up with it . So the whole thing went poof on them and when the dust settled that original 19 billion failure of payment had turned into a 124 billion of money they had to be bailed out with (its really a loan) and Goldman Sach whose short bets all paid off (and others) got paid 27 billion on the day it was made known that Greece was going to default on their 19 billion. Goldman Sachs then took 9+ billion and paid off the US Fed Resrve where they originally borrowed (.25 interest rate) the money to buy the Greek IOU's and pocketed a cool 18 billion approx.

 

This was all done over the space of a couple of months and under the auspices of EU , ECB , IMF (the money people) and it was done to make sure that French and German banks did not get into trouble , because they held a majority of Greek debt.Its a ponzi scheme they basically did the same thing to Ireland , Italy , Spain and Portugal (though not near as bad as they screwed over Greece). Dont see much protection od socialist values being done by the EU in all that. What I do see is a lot of selfishness in the remain camp that is basically willing to allow other peasants get screwed over , so their lives can hopefully remain a little more secure , a little more prosperous. So much for the united peasantry. lol

 

Anyway my point I'm trying to make is that you got all these experts telling Britain to stay , yet these same experts were wrong about Norway , were wrong about Britain falling apart if they didn't take the Euro and were wrong about the 08 crash and actively screwed over so many countries just to bail themselves out and many of them are not even British , yet I hear Brits go well the experts say. Huh why are you listening to them , that is not a smart thing to do.

 

The EU is an autocratic corporatist entity with leftist socialist flavoring , once they get the project complete with its own army and security forces , you enter into the possibility of a bureaucratic dictatorship , to which there is no recourse , simply because it has no true democratic mechanisms built into its construction. Thats the inherent flaw in its design.

 

And none of this even deals with the immigrant situation , which is becoming civilizational stupidity on a monumental level. And the truth is no one is talking about what is really going on.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Harbringe

[JimboUK]

[Mirocu]

 

 

So exactly what is the alternative and how would it work?

How about going back to the way things were where each country governs itself and makes laws according to them instead of to someone else? :)

[Deleted1205226User]

For that you'll have to eliminate each and every global companies. (the real culprits of the actual world mess along with the hardcore capitalist economic/politic.)

It will never happen.

Any serious alternative?

Edited June 21, 2016 by Guest

[sunshinenbrick]

If your in the remain camp you should really watch this.

 

 

 

 

So exactly what is the alternative and how would it work?

 

People really believe we would ever stop the elite taxing the rest? Without violent revolution? And that the powers of our establishment and royal heritage would actually want to give it to us. Did anyone here do any history? Most of those in the elite are of European decent anyway. Madness...

 

These things need to change true, but splitting up the peasants will actually work to our disadvantage and take us back into a kind of modern dark ages. The global economic powers and inequality is not really much to do with the EU and it is even the socialist values of its people that are the victims.

 

What next.. break up NATO? To what end? Some illusion of independence and to be overtaken and eventually ruled by other rising powers that share little of our values or common interest.

 

 

Ok do you really believe these European Elites are not already running the EU . If the elites are already a problem within the British framework (in which you can directly vote for someone to do something about it) , how does having elites within a EU framework (in which you cannot vote for someone to do something about it) make any sense . Thats just doubling down on the madness. The true madness is your willing to trade one where you can try to change it for one where you can't. Your argument is very defeatist , its basically "we can't do anything about elitists taxing the hell out of us anyway , so lets just give em more power and hope they abide by some social values of the EU". Seriously that is just terrible reasoning.

 

Also that you think the EU has nothing to do with economic inequality and that the socialist values of the people are of any import to them is just mind bending . An example of what happened to Greece will serve to illustrate this.

 

Greece originally had a approx 19 billion US failure of payment on their debt (technical default) , but they also had debt IOU's of just over 9 billion US from other countries as asset holdings. So Greece was trying to renegotiate thru the EU with the banks (IMF,World Bank , etc) to alleviate the situation and they had wiggle room because they held 9 billion US of other countires money. Then comes in Goldman Sachs (who actually were there along because they have people who sit on all the boards of organizations like the IMF or the World Bank) and they say to Greece if you allow us to acquire the 9 billion of other countries money you hold we can facilitate this debt renegotiation and we will ever throw in a couple extra hundred million and buy it at a premium . Greece goes back to negotiating thinking their troubles will be over. Goldman Sachs does something entirely different . They take the 9 billion of IOU's and leverage against it to approx 50 billion and then take that money and bet short against Greek debt (other banks once they realized what was happening also piled on) . Meanwhile Greece is using that 9+ billion given to them trying to go long on their own debt (basically putting money down to show in long term they are good for their debt) , but because others were shorting them the borrowing rates on the 19 billion they were in default with kept going up and up and up and they couldn't keep up with it . So the whole thing went poof on them and when the dust settled that original 19 billion failure of payment had turned into a 124 billion of money they had to be bailed out with (its really a loan) and Goldman Sach whose short bets all paid off (and others) got paid 27 billion on the day it was made known that Greece was going to default on their 19 billion. Goldman Sachs then took 9+ billion and paid off the US Fed Resrve where they originally borrowed (.25 interest rate) the money to buy the Greek IOU's and pocketed a cool 18 billion approx.

 

This was all done over the space of a couple of months and under the auspices of EU , ECB , IMF (the money people) and it was done to make sure that French and German banks did not get into trouble , because they held a majority of Greek debt.Its a ponzi scheme they basically did the same thing to Ireland , Italy , Spain and Portugal (though not near as bad as they screwed over Greece). Dont see much protection od socialist values being done by the EU in all that. What I do see is a lot of selfishness in the remain camp that is basically willing to allow other peasants get screwed over , so their lives can hopefully remain a little more secure , a little more prosperous. So much for the united peasantry. lol

 

Anyway my point I'm trying to make is that you got all these experts telling Britain to stay , yet these same experts were wrong about Norway , were wrong about Britain falling apart if they didn't take the Euro and were wrong about the 08 crash and actively screwed over so many countries just to bail themselves out and many of them are not even British , yet I hear Brits go well the experts say. Huh why are you listening to them , that is not a smart thing to do.

 

The EU is an autocratic corporatist entity with leftist socialist flavoring , once they get the project complete with its own army and security forces , you enter into the possibility of a bureaucratic dictatorship , to which there is no recourse , simply because it has no true democratic mechanisms built into its construction. Thats the inherent flaw in its design.

 

And none of this even deals with the immigrant situation , which is becoming civilizational stupidity on a monumental level. And the truth is no one is talking about what is really going on.

 

I agree with most of your points but none of this will change or improve in the event of a 'Brexit. It would in fact likely get worse, and I fear this is the war game that is actually underlying the official leave campaign.

 

The thing is that many people know and can see the corruption within the EU, which is actually of some advantage because people are beginning to figure the whole situation out. Corruption is everywhere, there is not a government or institution on the planet that is free of corruption (partly because it follows our own fallible characteristics but also because it comes down to sheer opinion). What puts me off most about the leave campaign is them trying to push some sort of utopian situation and trying to convince us that they care about us... don't make me laugh!

 

There is a strength in awareness and also in not being fragmented from our immediate neighbours who, despite the scaremongering, are actually not our enemies. One of the UK's biggest issues is the blinkered views of the people we send to negotiate our case... many of whom seem to be more interested in actually brewing the instability we see today so as to complete their own plans of power and world domination. The official figures on the leave side are actually the biggest pushers of corporate rights over workers, austerity and social privatisation. But they just keep trying to redirect people to the immigration debate, a complete red herring as they will in reality only increase immigration from parts of the world with even less worker rights and the ability to undercut wages even further. The real issue they have with EU migration is the same issue they have with their own native populations, we know our rights, want more money, don't actually take jobs we don't want to do, and are thus simply not profitable or efficient enough to employ.

 

Used correctly the political power and weight of the EU is actually a great advantage to us. As I have said, some sort of world war is inevitable, if not already underway and as it stands the UK has enormous territorial and strategic advantages. On a leave the UK would have to dig ever deeper into its pockets and Britain is no stranger to empirical warfare. 'Passion for Britain'? Yeah I can read into that... even if breaking it down to sheer statistics then the probability of ending up in a trench is lowered considerably if there was a need for a EU army. Besides, even if there was one it would probably be for the same reasons we would have to increase our own presence. Being a nuclear power and a part of NATO means it will likely be our own politicians dragging people out onto the battlefield anyway. *cough* Tony Blair...

 

I have entertained much of the arguments from both sides and I just find the leave side of things have been taken in a wholly unsavoury and divisive direction. The sort of in-fighting being driven among the general public makes me feel very uneasy already, and again is a case of pushing the responsibilities away from our politicians and establishment by advocating some sort of 'street law'... it is turning into unabashed blind-sided 'for your country' nationalism. It actually begins to feel a little 'anti-British', and seems to go against everything that the UK has fought for and come to embody across the world.

 

I am no fan of rhetoric but there is perhaps some insights to be taken from the idea that maybe we should be leading, not leaving.