Creation Kid Documentation wanted (needed)

[RattleAndGrind]

I am a NOOB so be gentle.

 

Given that Bethesda has spent absolutely NO time creating and maintaining the online documentation for the Creation Kit, I am looking for another source of good documentation that I can READ. Now know this; I am old and I am not a visual learner so video tutorials are a waste of my time, as I get nothing out of them. :wallbash: I need something that I can read, preferably with lots of appropriate illustrations. :mellow:

 

So how about it. Anyone have a secret source for documentation they are willing to share? :smile:

 

And to prevent one of the obvious responses, I have asked google. All I get are videos or links to sites with videos. :sick:

P.S. If you recommend a video tutorial, I will tell you are illiterate and/or you need to take a reading comprehension class. :facepalm:

Edited June 12, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[BlahBlahDEEBlahBlah]

Now know this; I am old and I am not a visual learner so video tutorials are a waste of my time, as I get nothing out of them. :wallbash:

^This^

Everyone wants to video everything. Pause, alt-tab, unpause, rewind, rewind, pause, forward, turn up volume, full screen, wait for buffering so what lettering there is isn't blurry, turn down volume, alt-tab, alt-tab, minimize, unpause...lame (for me). =/

And sometimes, I even still like print out things to read...geez, I really am getting older.

 

Anywho...

Other than the https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3760875-fallout-4-modding-tutorials/ , I can't mention much specifically. Not to be a jerk, there's just no one great repository that I've found yet.

 

I *will*, however, point out something that has helped me greatly...kind of a reminder in my case, actually:

Creation Kit guides for Skyrim, New Vegas and Fallout 3 can still be quite apt for this new version. So much of the basics carry over quite nicely.

So, when googling, don't be picky about which game your asking questions of Creation Kit about. A skyrim (for example) guide to navmesh'ing (again, for example) may very well tell you what you need to know for Fallout 4.

 

Good luck. =)

 

P.S. I do find these 2 helpful:

http://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=Reference

http://www.creationkit.com/fallout4/index.php?title=ObjectReference_Script

[zanity]

OK- let me try to answer in a realistic way. Firstly, you are right- the documentation for the CK is an absolute joke- but this is a reality, so don't fight it.

 

What you need to do is follow the best advice Beth gives- and I think this is found more with the Skyrim CK. Essentially you need to take a FULLY WORKING example of a mod and get it working on your computer. Do NOT concern yourself whether the mod does something you care about or not- that is a beginner's mistake.

 

You see, you want a KNOWN GOOD situation, simply to learn how to get the tools working in the first place. BEFORE you code or design, you MUST learn how to set up the tools.

 

Now having a KNOWN good set of source data for a mod, you try to get the tools working- and if you have trouble, you ask for advice wherever you can. Because the mod works, and your only issue (at this point) is making the tools work- advice will be easy to come by.

 

Right- so now you finally get to compile this mod, and have it working on your computer- this is a MAJOR step forward. Now you can EXPERIMENT with this mod- try making tiny changes, and see if you can get the revised version compiled and working.

 

Time to seek out the source data for another mod- perhaps a slightly more complex one- and get that one working on your computer too.

 

Hopefully by this stage you are starting to cross-reference what you see in the mod source with reference manuals online. Beth's resources are terrible- but will make more sense to you the more you start to 'get' how mods actually work.

 

If you are NOT a programmer, you may want to avoid trying to make mods with scripting, and stick to visual artistic things like changing textures or simple models. But again the approach is to set up KNOWN GOOD source data for mods- getting those working- and then trying to use the visual tools to make minor changes.

 

Some UNPLEASANT or disingeneous people try to sell coding and other forms of computer development as 'trivial' (see the laughable Obama backed programs to push so-called 'programming' on every child at school). This gives the uninformed the idea that computer work is EASY if only those 'mean ole' computer types stopped pretending their discipline is a 'black art' and made proper 'documentation' for the masses. Sorry- the issue of poor documentation has NOTHING to do with the fact that computer work (at a high level) is a very significant skill requiring expertise and practise.

 

Much simple modding of FO4 comes at the LOW END of computer work. But it has the complication of touching a lot of different systems at the same time (because of how modern open-world game engines work). For the totally unskilled, the BEST advice is what I said above- master just getting the tools installed and working- get an example mod functioning- and TAKE PRIDE in taking well considered BABY STEPS.

 

The WRONG WAY is for the unskilled to have an ambitious mod idea, and say "how do I do this".

 

And BTW- to say "I won't use video guides" is CHILDISH in the extreme. You use WHATEVER resources are available. I would imagine the best way to set up the tools in the first place (for the unskilled) is to find a video of someone doing exactly this- so every step is clearly presented onscreen. Video guides will NOT teach you to program- but you'll know when you hit that step.

 

To be honest I sense an ATTITUDE issue in your post- and I have to say that having an attitude is the WORST state of mind to learn computer skills. You MUST be open minded- assume your assumptions will be proven false- and be grateful for anything that helps you get anything working on your computer.

 

PS even if you had the best book imaginable on modding with CK, it would NOT teach you modding. CODING teaches you coding. MODDING teaches you modding. To think a book gets the job done is like saying you could be the next Rembrandt if only you had the right book. Documentation is just another tool- but to master any tool takes time, effort and determination.

Edited June 12, 2016 by zanity

[NorthWolf]

@Zanity:

 

I think you're coming on really strong, Zanity, and making some assumptions about the guy that might not be true. The OP never asked about coding. He asked for written documentation about the Creation Kit. I can echo your sentiments in some ways: the reality behind modding is that you will often be dealing with incomplete, inaccurate, or completely missing documentation. Sometimes experimentation will be an absolutely vital part of progressing forward. Your advice to start a reliable tutorial project is also good. The problem is that nothing the OP asked for is innately unreasonable.

 

I guess I can see why you would infer an attitude in the post but I think it's really jumping the gun to assume the guy is whining that he can't find a guide that definitively tells him how to mod perfectly. I think it's more likely he's complaining that video tutorials can be arduous on people who hate video tutorials and he would like to know if there's an alternative. I can really sympathize with the point because I hate video tutorials and find them a horrible way for me to learn a new piece of software.

 

Anyway, TL;DR: the guy is new, he says as much, and I get why you might think he has an attitude but I'm not sure he really does. Your advice isn't bad but being hostile isn't going to encourage him to pursue the hobby.

 

@RattleAndGrind:

 

Even though I think Zanity came on rather strong his advice isn't bad, though I'm not under the impression you want general modding advice, so I won't give it. I can at least echo a sentiment I see a lot:

 

Learning from Skyrim, Fallout: New Vegas, and Fallout 3 tutorials isn't a bad route to take. I did work in Fallout: New Vegas's GECK a few years ago, which I had consequently learned VIA written documentation, and that experience made it entirely possible for me to pick up Fallout 4's Creation Kit and mostly get it. Fallout 3 tutorials will also work just as effectively as Fallout: New Vegas's. I can't comment on Skyrim, but that's common advice on the forums, and probably applies even moreso than Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout 3.

 

So my advice is to use Skyrim's Creation Kit tutorials if they're better written.

 

Though to a degree welcome to the fun reality of modding: the game's documentation usually sucks and half the time you should be happy to have any documentation in the first place.

Edited June 13, 2016 by NorthWolf

[RattleAndGrind]

 

Some UNPLEASANT or disingeneous people try to sell coding and other forms of computer development as 'trivial' (see the laughable Obama backed programs to push so-called 'programming' on every child at school). This gives the uninformed the idea that computer work is EASY if only those 'mean ole' computer types stopped pretending their discipline is a 'black art' and made proper 'documentation' for the masses. Sorry- the issue of poor documentation has NOTHING to do with the fact that computer work (at a high level) is a very significant skill requiring expertise and practise.

With this, I agree. I spent 45 years turning ones into zeros. Or was that zeros into ones?

 

As for my "attitude" about videos, it is more a case of "I can't adequately absorb information when I listen to someone else drone on". I don't do well in class lectures or sermons or even announcement segments at E3. Gopher has produced some excellent videos. One I have watched three times. I do not remember any of it. :sleep:

 

But I am addicted to books and pages. I can (and do) write in books. I can dog ear pages or put clips or 'stickies' on pages. I can write references to other books in the margins. I can underline "stuff" I find important. I can have four books open on the floor while referencing similar information from each. And if a book is not useful, I can use it in the fire to warm my feet . I do well with books. Books go into greater detail than a video. Good technical books come with Indices and Table of Contents so information can be located quickly and easily as needed. Books are quiet (unless you throw one at the door). Good reference documentation can take you from the simple to the sublime in due course. Books are my friend. :laugh:

 

And thanks for the detailed response. It is the kind of thing I have been doing. But I am not up to baby steps yet. I'm crawling. But I got a rifle working and I figured out how to put two different enchantments on the same piece of armor without documentation. :D I'll get there.

Edited June 13, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[radiumskull]

I wonder if the problem is manpower? Like, they don't have the people to get their documentation into the Wiki? I would happily work on this for free.

 

I did mention on the Bethesda forums the other day that it would be great if they could have, say, a volunteer team from the community work on getting the FO4 CK Wiki filled out. I don't know if that's possible, since that would require existing Bethesda documentation, and there may be none. But if there were, I would certainly work on it for free, and be willing to sign an NDA regarding it.

 

Mentioning it here, and on Bethesda,net is a lot like writing it on a restroom wall, but at least someone might see it.

[noahdvs]

It's not going to help you much personally, but if you find something and wish to share it, but don't feel like writing and formatting a wiki page, you could just add it to the talk section. I've added a little bit to the talk sections of the weapons and body parts pages so far.

[NorthWolf]

I wonder if the problem is manpower? Like, they don't have the people to get their documentation into the Wiki? I would happily work on this for free.

 

I did mention on the Bethesda forums the other day that it would be great if they could have, say, a volunteer team from the community work on getting the FO4 CK Wiki filled out. I don't know if that's possible, since that would require existing Bethesda documentation, and there may be none. But if there were, I would certainly work on it for free, and be willing to sign an NDA regarding it.

 

Mentioning it here, and on Bethesda,net is a lot like writing it on a restroom wall, but at least someone might see it.

 

Based on my experience with other developers? I wouldn't be surprised at all if you aren't correct and there's just no (relevant) in-house documentation to even format for the wiki. Even if there is in-house documentation it's probably for Skyrim because I can't see a reason they'd write volumes of new documentation for Fallout 4 -- it's just not significantly different enough to justify it I'm guessing.

[demonofsarila]

 

Based on my experience with other developers? I wouldn't be surprised at all if you aren't correct and there's just no (relevant) in-house documentation to even format for the wiki. Even if there is in-house documentation it's probably for Skyrim because I can't see a reason they'd write volumes of new documentation for Fallout 4 -- it's just not significantly different enough to justify it I'm guessing.

 

 

Honestly half the time I pop over to the skyrim part of the creation kit wiki because that is developed and has pictures and tons of content and etc. Yeah there's a few things that aren't exactly right, but it's close enough. I can't think of a pair of pages off the top of my head, but there's been times where the page for fallout was beyond lacking (barely a few lines of text) while the page for the exact same thing for skyrim was just packed with pages of info.

 

Though I've probably learned the most from random googling, which typically leads to a topic in a form somewhere about modding skyrim but it perfectly answers my question and has the code I need to fix my problem.

 

I know you said you don't like videos, what if you wrote down what the video says and maybe even take a few screenshots of it? Not the most efficient thing I know, but it would get things in the format you prefer. Some do contain good info, even if it's not in a format that works for you.

[RattleAndGrind]

 

I know you said you don't like videos, what if you wrote down what the video says and maybe even take a few screenshots of it? Not the most efficient thing I know, but it would get things in the format you prefer. Some do contain good info, even if it's not in a format that works for you.

 

 

Funny story (at least to me). I ran a video with a speech to text app running on another computer (I have a bunch left over from my contracting days). When I read the result, almost half of the text lines were speech fillers or verbal place holders (um, ah, oh, wait, what, s***, I had it,... and so forth). Half of what was left came out as "unintelligible". So only about a quarter of the content was viable, and virtually all of it was related to where the cursor was pointing.

 

And to put my video "dislike" to rest, a comment on attention spans, thinking speeds and stimuli uptake. There is a condition we all have which is referred to as situational disconnect. Classic examples are walking to a room and forgetting why or asking your self "What was I doing?" That disconnect occurs differently for different people. I disconnect quickly when people are talking (a condition my wife knows all too well). The average person speaks at 100 words per minute (auctioneers can get up to 250). The average person can hear (stimuli uptake) and understand (thinking speed) 300 words per minute. In that 200 word difference is where the disconnect occurs. Our minds wander (attention span). Good listeners can focus well enough to not be terminally distracted Me, a distraction is a wonderful place to explore and I disconnect entirely from what is happening in front of me. Hell, I have to watch a flick at least three times before I see most of it. Talking to me or at me is a waste of time, yours and mine; because I disconnect too quickly. And videos qualify. The reason I prefer written material is that I read and comprehend at about 400 words a minute; with no disconnect problems.

 

TL;DR. I do not dislike videos, I just do not learn from them. My attention span is way too short. But I read and comprehend very quickly.

Edited June 14, 2016 by RattleAndGrind