Feminism - What it means to me

[Vagrant0]

Perhaps it is time to have women rule the world for a while; we men have made a mess of it.

I would disagree. Humanity has made a mess of it. Women are no less corrupt, manipulative, dishonest, or callous in their workings than men. And in some cases, they can be even more so because they're "entitled" to treat any male they see like dirt as part of payback. You don't get gender equality, you just get the shoe on the other foot and a reversal of existing problems with no real progress made.

 

There is also another factor. There has long been a sexual division of labor. Just because anyone can technically do any job, does not mean they'll be particularly good at it without significant, and in many cases disastrous, re-arrangement of social, cultural, and educational views regarding these skills. In some cases, genetic factors are a huge part of end skill in a given trade, such as smallness of hands, general build of body. Women aren't pulled into sweatshops because of sexual bias particularly, but rather because they usually have smaller, agile hands, an abundance of patience, and a willingness to suffer with inhospitable conditions so that their children can eat. Most men, generally, only work so that they can occasionally have a hot meal and a warm bed to come home to.

 

Sure, there are some which are essentially corporate slavery, but in many cases, this is where the best paying jobs are. More over, since the women working in these places are able to have some sort of living without a man, it is actually giving women MORE freedom in many places since they now have their own money, without having to go into prostitution. This migration of women from housework to factory work is so apparent that some tribes in Africa have even changed languages and suddenly become better educated because the woman left to work in factories, and came back with not only knowledge in the more dominant language in those places they work, but also more access to reading and writing which they share with their family. It's not to say that these places are good to work in, in general, but often they're the most stable form of income in that part of the world. Sweatshops are not about exploitation of Women, but rather exploitation of very poor people so that the first world countries can maintain their level of luxury. And it will always be that way since just about every society of reasonable size which ever was, was built on the backs of plentiful and cheap labor.

[Maharg67]

VagrantO, the last line was just a throw away suggestion to continue debate.

 

I never said that women are perfect when compared to men it is just that women tend to think differently and do things differently from men, as a generalization, and it would be interesting to see how women would run the world for a while.

 

As for sweatshop labour, all suffer in such situations. Children are amongst the greatest victims. In my post I pointed out that more than women suffer from such exploitation. In truth men also do so though perhaps not in the exact same way. Yes, men are exploited also as cheap or free labour. It is said that in the world today there are more than twenty million slaves being men, women and children. There are more slaves in the world now than there has ever been before.

 

A quote from my post.

 

Other forms of discrimination take place, other forms of exploitation and suffering such as racism, bias against certain faiths, the suffering of the poor, the world wide exploitation of both female and male children and even the cruelty against animals, the destruction of the natural ecosystems and environments. They also need to be dealt with.

 

When I spoke of feminism I did not mention it in isolation from the rest of the world and its many problems.

 

But the issue of women's place in the world is one of the most profound concerns that has to be dealt with if this world is to become a better place for us all to live in, including the flora and fauna. Why, because it is all linked together. To truly put an end to unfair suffering one has to put an end to all unfair suffering or at least try harder to do so.

 

I agree with much of what you say but believe you missed my major point. I was 'generalizing' because to do otherwise, the world being huge and complicated, would easily lead to a very very very very big post.

 

Also I am only human, often post when I am tired, and do not do any great editing as I would do if I was, for instance, doing university work so at times I will miscommunicate with out intending to do so.

 

I will go back to the topic of feminism with the next quote because this is what the topic is about.

 

Women do most of the work, on a world wide basis, and get a very small proportion of the rewards. The crimes against women are amazingly great in number and variation. The amount of wealth made from exploiting women is incredible. This world system would break down if women either stopped working or rebelled.

 

While it is true there are intentional improvements in the lives of women, and changes that improve women's lives as a side effect, the general picture is still bleak. Much more has to be done.

[Deleted472477User]

Being a feminist, for me, means fighting until:

 

No more babies are drowned just because they're female

Every girl gets a chance to go to school

Every girl lives in freedom from being harassed because she's female

No more women are mutilated to prevent them from having sex before they're allowed

Every woman has the right to vote, should they so choose to

There are no more "honour killings"

Every woman has the right to wear what she chooses to without fear of being harassed, hurt, or killed

Every woman has the right to be with and/or marry whomever she chooses - man or woman -

When no woman has to worry about rape

When every woman can say "NO" and not be ignored

When every woman has safe access to abortion

When every woman has proper prenatal treatment

When every woman can get support for mental and physical health problems

When every woman has a chance to work at a decent job, if she so chooses,

AND WHEN EVERY WOMAN CAN WALK DOWN THE STREET IN THE DARK, ALONE, AND NOT REMEMBER A TIME WHEN SHE EVER FELT "UNSAFE",

Until then I will always be a feminist.

[Keanumoreira]

Vagrant: I agree completely with your statement. There's not much I can add to that post, other than the division of the sexes is a serious problem that needs to be fixed. 10,000 years of racked up debt, at least, some women believe (men too); and a lot of the Feminists who want to rake it in. It's not right by me. I believe equality is at the center of my being. I respect women very deeply, and I've never given a woman a hard time in matters concerning sexual harassment, whether it be physical or verbal. I'm not really part of this political movement, but what I would like to address is that me and any other man who respects the female sex should not deserve to be swept under the rug and punished just because we have an extra appendage. If I may be so blunt.

 

It is true that women have had to deal with the mountain of crap building on their backs for these number of millenia, but there have been men (the serfs, the peasants, the "squabble") who have stood by them this entire time, and so should you choose to believe it or not, a great deal of these men believed in woman's right, in complete equality for both sexes. During the Right's Movement, thousands of men marched with the women, or in some way, did their part to change how this nation treated them. I find it hilarious how some women will go as far as to say that men are below them because they never treat them fairly. Who gave you those rights in the first place? Who took your ladles and aprons and replaced them with a book and business suit? Men did, the men who wanted to change such indecency and place women where they belong in society. By our sides, as our equals. They are our own flesh and blood, they created us, they welcome us home and kiss our foreheads or give us a hot meal, knowing that they don't have to do that anymore. It isn't mandatory, but they do it anyway.

 

Men and women are both the same. I don't want to hear you say "oh...you've got a few missing parts, therefore, you are inferior to us, the men almighty", or "women rise and destroy anyone with a Y chromosome"! You can tell me anything, argue with me until the day the sun devours this planet, dawn to dusk, I don't give a damn. Men and women are both the same. That is the truth. So what if they call it "man"kind? Women ensure that mankind carries on. Who cares if it is socially unacceptable to hit a woman. When night rolls around, you can "make up" for that, and honestly, who do you believe enjoys that the most? And does it matter if some men are dogs, and others are horrific husbands? Child Support favors the mother. Thank the King of France for that.

 

We all share the same blood, our veins all link to our hearts, and our hearts all keep us alive as we breathe the same air and stand on the same two feet. The only difference is that sex, and our brain chemistry are different. But it shouldn't take an ape to tell us how stupid it would be to not believe in the equality of sexes. But you know what they say about monkey's and typewriters...

Edited November 18, 2011 by Keanumoreira

[grannywils]

@Keanumoireira, yours was a very fascinating post, and one well thought out...

 

I agree with you that men and women are basically the same. Thus my point in my original post about Humanism being the real point here, rather than feminism. I am attempting to look at this issue in a more positive light rather than a combative one.

 

A lot of what you say rings true, but I would question one point, and that is where you say that men took away our ladles and aprons, etc. and put us by their sides and "made" us their equals. In my opinion, we were always their equals. The "movement" took place because of the fact that there were so many of those instances taking place that you also quoted somewhat offhandedly in your post.

 

Without a doubt millions of men have always believed that women and men were equal and stood by women in their attempt to acquire some of the rights they were demanding.

 

The haranguing is totally unnecessary, yet you hear it from both sides who disagree that men and women should be treated as human beings first and foremost. You hear it just as loudly from men who in their heart of hearts believe that women should be subjugated as you hear it from women who believe that men are all brutes who should be whipped into submission. In my opinion, this has nothing to do with feminism or the feminist movement. It has to do with hatred, prejudice and stupidity.

 

Your last paragraph confuses me somewhat. The statement is obvious (although it is our brains that keep us alive), but it just does not sound at all like you.

 

 

[Keanumoreira]

I know some of my knowledge on the Feminist Movement was offhand, and I expected and wanted you to correct whatever it was that my knowledge didn't extend to. I thank you for that.

 

Now, I didn't mean to imply that women were equal to men from a specific set of time. I've always believed that women were equal to men throughout history spiritually, as in our species as a whole. But women in society have not always been equal to men, and by that, I mean, they weren't given the same opportunities as we were. What I'm trying to say here is that they weren't always treated fairly and given the same amount the opposite sex would receive, but left them empty-handed instead. That part was misquoted on my behalf, and I apologize if it offended or mislead anybody.

 

I'm not certain if you're directing that haranguing notion towards me, but if you are, it wasn't meant to be a lecture of criticism, just a straightforward opinion. I realize that this topic isn't about hatred, stupidity, or prejudice (the later of which I really hope you haven't pinned on me, because that does not define me in this lifetime), but some of it seems to be stirring in that direction.

 

Your second to last paragraph has thrown me completely off. I'm not sure if I understood that correctly, but I absolutely do not believe that women should be subjugated, whether you meant that as putting them in control, or shoving them beneath the feet of men, or that men should be punished in the manor you described. As I said, I believe in equality for both sexes. What I am trying to do here is state that not all men are automatically brutes or savage animals. I'm a kind hearted person, but I will stand up and defend what I believe in if I have to.

 

The last paragraph is meant to explain that we are all the same people inside and not inferior for what one sex may or may not have that leads others to believe that one is inferior or superior to the other. The last line was meant to explain, indirectly, in two ways that if we were to debate with animals of who would be the better sex, they would, if they could; shrug their shoulders and walk away. The second indirect point I was trying to make was that, as the theory goes; if you give a monkey a typewriter and a long time, he may eventually, through random typing; come up with a book or subject that is recognizable. In this case, his subject is "Who is the better sex", and because it is expected for that monkey to come up with nonsense, as many believe the monkey will inevitably fail; it is intended to hint that if it were to come up with an answer other than "neither", then it would be nonsense.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Keanumoreira

[grannywils]

@Keanumoreira, I will just explain my second to last paragraph (and the haranguing comment), as I believe you have misunderstood me. It was not directed at you personally. I was attempting to describe what I see going on in the world in general between some groups of men and women who just don't seem to want to get along or understand that we are all one species. I was not including you in those groups in any manner. I believe you to be a relatively enlightened young man who always attempts to see the best in all people.

 

I trust that will cover what I was attempting to say. I am pretty much finished with this topic now.

[Keanumoreira]

@Keanumoreira, I will just explain my second to last paragraph (and the haranguing comment), as I believe you have misunderstood me. It was not directed at you personally. I was attempting to describe what I see going on in the world in general between some groups of men and women who just don't seem to want to get along or understand that we are all one species. I was not including you in those groups in any manner. I believe you to be a relatively enlightened young man who always attempts to see the best in all people.

 

I trust that will cover what I was attempting to say. I am pretty much finished with this topic now.

 

I hope I haven't offended you Granny. My reply was not meant to be derogatory or to cast any aspersions on you. I was only trying to defend my statement and get a better understanding, but not attack. I apologize if that is what it has come to. I admit that I can appear to be vicious in my posts and take things a little too far, and sometimes I am and can. But this was not the intended case.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Keanumoreira

[BlackBaron2]

Being a feminist, for me, means fighting until:

 

No more babies are drowned just because they're female

Every girl gets a chance to go to school

Every girl lives in freedom from being harassed because she's female

No more women are mutilated to prevent them from having sex before they're allowed

Every woman has the right to vote, should they so choose to

There are no more "honour killings"

Every woman has the right to wear what she chooses to without fear of being harassed, hurt, or killed

Every woman has the right to be with and/or marry whomever she chooses - man or woman -

When no woman has to worry about rape

When every woman can say "NO" and not be ignored

When every woman pregnant person has safe access to abortion

When every woman pregnant person has proper prenatal treatment

When every woman can get support for mental and physical health problems

When womanhood is no longer reduced to body parts

When women are not treated as sexual gatekeepers

When womanhood and femininity is not treated like an insult

When every woman has a chance to work at a decent job, if she so chooses,

AND WHEN EVERY WOMAN CAN WALK DOWN THE STREET IN THE DARK, ALONE, AND NOT REMEMBER A TIME WHEN SHE EVER FELT "UNSAFE",

Until then I will always be a feminist.

 

 

Yep, I'm in agreement with this and will add on a few points. Mine are added in bold (and strikeout for the ones that forget about trans people) :)

[Nintii]

Feminism ... Misogyny (Male hating Female) and Misandry (female hatred toward males ... but is it really so ?).

 

Firstly the opposite of Misogyny (men hating women) many will say is Misandry (women hating men) ... however, Misandry is not as entrenched into society or culture or religion (which drives society),

to have a a firm or solid enough platform to be equal to Misogyny in it's intensity.

 

One thought is as follows and I quote, "not to the hatred of men as men, but to the hatred of men's traditional male role" and a "culture of machismo".

 

In other words, I don't hate you because you're a guy but rather I hate the fact that you refuse me equality with you, and I hate the fact that most instituitions out there are predjudice against me as a female as well.

That's Misandry and thats how I see it.

 

However, Misogyny is not that forgiving or entreating, rather it is a HATRED of females and a desire to see them as slaves, exclude them from anything that has position of power, place or authority.

Aristotle said that females were natural deformities or imperfect males

Tertullian said that females were the "gateway to the devil' and also a "temple built over a sewer".

 

My response is to not hate men instead, I prefer to use the term Feminist to describe myself as opposed to Misandrist .... because of it's connotations associated with hatred, I don't hate anyone !

No, Feminiism to me means "PRO" female or rather the advancement of the Female in society as opposed to to being "ANTI" anything.

Put a positive spin to it instead of approaching it from a standpoint of "I'll get you back".

 

To all those small minded little men out there who hate women ... "**********************************************************************************************************************".

 

Oh, and if the earth is ever in trouble, I'm definitely not giving you lift on my rocket, I wish you a speedy trip to hell and I hope you look forward to the trip.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Nintii