On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[Mitigate]

In response to post #41319925. #41795370, #41803315 are all replies on the same post.

steve40 wrote:

Agreed. Those who disagree tend to be mod authors who wish to sellout and try to make a buck themselves at the expense of the community.

Nope. They're self-entitled users who want to keep getting all their mods for free.

I for one, provide all my mods for free and don't even accept donations, but I still disagree, so there. Your argument just shot to pieces. :devil:

Mitigate wrote: I did say they 'tend' to be... Not that all are. So my statement remains intact.
And congratulations on your modding practises, you special little snowflake :)

steve40 wrote: Loses argument, chucks an ad hominem. Figures. Given your history of ZERO MODS, I'm sure you're more than qualified to represent the motivations of modders, especially with your total lack of evidence to back up your ignorant argument.

Whatever makes you happy kid. Edited September 3, 2016 by Mitigate

[wisone]

thank you for this/ i am thinking of trying my hand at modding and have been doing the research i need to do before that happens. it is good to know the things cropping up with the bethesda and console crowed.

 

as always thank you all (modders) for providing the gaming world with great mods that extend the game and make an otherwise buggy engine work properly.

thank you also to the folks with the foresight to set up this site and manage it and the several thousand desperate POV's involved.

 

I do have much to say on this subject and am cutting it off because it sounds much like what happened in the counterstrike community so many years ago. you can go read those old threads if interested but frankly the issues and the words are almost verbatim. Sorry to see a great community in this much pain and turmoil.

[nicktroy23]

I'm new here but I just want to say I appreciate all the work you content creators put into making these mods. Without these mods I would have stopped playing some of these games ages ago. Instead I'm still enjoying them to this day. And I'd also like to say I find it funny how those who have put no mods up at all try to tell content creators how they should feel about their content being stolen. I'm not a mod maker but I make music and plan on distributing my music for free. I would be livid if someone stole my content that I worked so hard on free or not free. Only those who have never put sweat and tears into something making ignorant statements like that.

[LonewolfMods]

modding since morrowind? LOL some of us have been modding much much longer.

anyway I agree with much of what you have said in your huge write up. aside from the fact nor all of us are Sir's Sir. right with that tiny thing off my chest.

 

The thing that REALLY worries me with all of this stuff Bethesda is suddenly pulling, is will it be the return of paid mods? I'm ok with mod authors asking for >donations< but even since Diablo 2 and before Mods have always been free. Most mod makers make them because we want to add to the fun of players and we want to SHARE that fun with the community. So donations are one thing but I sure hope this its NOT the return of Bethesda's harebrained idea of paid mods.

 

I'm not against mods coming to console they have been missing out on half the fun, and I don't think the PC community is at risk from mods on console doing to much damage to the community; as well Consoles have limits, PCs can be updated, tweaked and upgraded. So on that score the console is static and at a disadvantage, But I have to say playing skyrim on a console with mods isn't something that upsets me it makes me think "About damn time".

PC mods are still going to win out the day because it will have more mods that can be updated more easily and mod makers who are pro at their programming lang's are still likely to make full out mods, not the hand held stuff you get from the Bethesda tool set. That said Bethesda lost my trust when they themselves ripped off mods and turned them into DLC. Anyone remember heartfire? there were a number of house making and village making or town making mods around LONG before Bethesda put that on the board and launched it, so that Also worries me is what hooks are coming with this whole remastered thing and Bethesda.net.

Edited September 14, 2016 by LonewolfMods

[LonewolfMods]

In response to post #41968260.

Dusty4life wrote:

Well, if i create mods for the new skyrim remastered version etc - i'll probably try and find a way that a pc version cannot work on the console with out a code or some such ensuring a mod cannot be ported and uploaded to bethesda.net etc with out my express permission. Nothing about console players, naturally.

If you find out how to do that, Be sure to let the rest of us know dusty. that sounds like a good plan to protect mods from being stolen easily.

[LonewolfMods]

In response to post #39832980. #40268845, #40275465, #40295955, #40487115, #40516110, #40547280, #40548270, #40563460, #40576465, #40616490, #40860170, #40903120, #40914500, #41913945 are all replies on the same post.

marc5477 wrote: It is my understand that mods rights are owned by Bethesda, not the author, as long as the mod does not break any sort of copyright law. Are you sure you aren't getting upset over nothing?

Since you dont own your own mod, what difference does it make to you, if someone does something to it without permission? You will never make money from it and you will not get famous from it (any more, since its so easy to do compared to the old days). So whats the point?

If you want to make money from game assets then by all means sell the assets and there are many ways to do that but dont put them into someone elses game without reading the contract for doing so. If someone took one of my mods I wouldnt care one bit as long as they are not making money from my work and they are not getting famous from it. If either of those ever happen, you always have a legal recourse. The only thing I ever asked is to just give me credit somewhere in the doc that I at least exist lol.

Have the rules changed since Morrowind?

Nitrate55 wrote: And what if they're not giving you credit when they take your work? Or, better yet, they're claiming every bit of your work for themselves, fooling people into believing that they are the ones who made it, that they're the ones who poured their hard work into it, and not you. I understand that you might not care, but there's a vast majority of people who do care about this kind of thing. People who cannot tolerate this kind of thing. For example, why would I want to continue creating my work at all if I know it's just going to get taken by someone else, that some thief out there is going to take credit for my work? I think it's enough to dissillusion some people from even modding at all in the first place

Solongchu wrote: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Read this and you will see that Beth doesnt own your mods.

RandomViolence222 wrote: Well modding would fall under derivative works, so yeah Bethesda owns your mods.

JeorgErsteman wrote: Not even remotely.
Especially in this case, where Beth has themselves granted the right, and the tools to create based on the work.
Then by directing those who have had their works taken by other parties to file legal claims.. they have wiped their hands of any claim to ownership.
You don't have to even be a shithouse lawyer to see that.
Plus it simply gets down to right and wrong.
If Beth revoked 'free pass' to mod their core program, they could then stipulate that any works are theirs. But, it still would be theft then if anyone posted any creation not their own anywhere.. as now they would be claiming, posting Beth's now declared property.. so no matter how you slice it.. if YOU didn't make it.. it aint yours to do anything with.

PirateZ86 wrote: No, Beth owns your mods. watch

. Read the EULA again.

mathiascronqvist wrote: RTFPost

FishBiter wrote: I mean did you even read the giant article up there? He covers this. He covers every single thing you said, and you're wrong... on every count.

wakkytabbaky wrote: those that say they wouldnt care if their mod was stolen / uploaded under someone elses name obviously has not spent the long hours of putting together a mod and being frustrated at every little problem that arises.

people that mod dont wake up in the morning and say today is a great day to create a mod for someone to steal

chuckles0000 wrote: That has already been covered. and even if bethesda were to pull some legal loophole, they would face immediate public backlash or worse.

Calinaas wrote: @Nitrate55 Actually there is a way to prove someone stole your work. It's the easiest way in the book.. check the time stamps of both mods. There's your proof. If someone was taking my mods and charging people for it they've already broken the law and Bethesda can technically sue them for it, also if the person who stole the mod tried everything in their power to pretend and lie they made it first. The time stamps don't lie. All I'd have to do is show people or the community my mod was uploaded first. I'm not saying it's okay to steal people's work. I'm just saying trying to prove it's stolen shouldn't be difficult.

DarkTl wrote: Uhh, time stamps? You locally change time and date on your pc and then resave the mod and all its files. Moreover, there is soft that allows you to change any files attributes, including time of creation and editing.

And if you propose to check time of uploading to bethesda.aids, it is not a proof, since a thief could do it sooner than the author.

Superbrony64 wrote:
Sure they can do it sooner than the author but if the Timestamp of when it went onto Nexus Mods server says say 12:46 June 8 2015 and the Timestamp of when it went to Bethesdas server said 14:16 July 20 2016. You can clearly see where the original came from. Also BETHESDA DOES NOT OWN YOUR MODS!!! When you put them through the creation kit Bethesda receives a LICENSE to do whatever they want with it. BUT that can be revoked by the OWNER WHICH IS THE MOD MAKER by pulling the mod from the server and telling bethesda to f*#@ off. In other words bethesda can use it but they CANT own it.

DarkTl wrote: I highly doubt Bethesda will accept as a proof dates from a website they don't own.

Superpinga wrote: if cooks talked like this there would be no "new"dishes....in essence weve been ripping old dishes and calling it our own.....thats the beauty of creativity.....now if people take credit for it...so what.....as a chef ive created dishes that now places i worked for feature and charge for it and i get no remuneration....

someone taking a mod you have made in good faith for the community so that they can add more enjoyment to a game, is like taking all your assignment work at collage and giving you back an empty folder to hand to the tutor for grading.
I don't mind folks taking any mod I post up as LONG as they say "so n so made this mode" or "my mod is based on this mod by so n so" giving Credit to another author who first made the mod is not a hard thing, and frankly i think it should be done. its like someone slapping you in the face instead of saying thanks when you do something nice for them. Its not hard and only takes a bit of typing, its just simple common decency and courtesy. If you make a mod that is based off another be sure to give the first mod maker your thanks and credits for their hard work first. it is only a little bit of typing and maybe copy pasting of a link back to the first mod maker.

[SHADOWMARINE578]

As both a PC and console player i just want to say thank you for posting this. I have always got my mods from you guys due to the fact i can trust your sight and its easy to use, sadly i don't have the money for a new PC rig that can handle fallout 4 or newer games, so i was stuck on the xbox one side of the house.

 

Whenever i see a new mod pop up on Bethesda.net the first thing i do is roll over to your sight to double check who really made the mod and to get more/better info about the mod. if i find the mod is stolen i normally report it and rate it as low as i can. its about the only way i know of to deal with that.

 

Its up to all of us as a community both PC and Console to act as the watchdogs for issues like this, to protect our mod authors from there work being stolen, and mostly to just show them we love and respect there work.

[Jaysaster]

In response to post #39832980. #40268845, #40275465, #40295955, #40487115, #40516110, #40547280, #40548270, #40563460, #40576465, #40616490, #40860170, #40903120, #40914500, #41913945, #42381055 are all replies on the same post.

marc5477 wrote: It is my understand that mods rights are owned by Bethesda, not the author, as long as the mod does not break any sort of copyright law. Are you sure you aren't getting upset over nothing?

Since you dont own your own mod, what difference does it make to you, if someone does something to it without permission? You will never make money from it and you will not get famous from it (any more, since its so easy to do compared to the old days). So whats the point?

If you want to make money from game assets then by all means sell the assets and there are many ways to do that but dont put them into someone elses game without reading the contract for doing so. If someone took one of my mods I wouldnt care one bit as long as they are not making money from my work and they are not getting famous from it. If either of those ever happen, you always have a legal recourse. The only thing I ever asked is to just give me credit somewhere in the doc that I at least exist lol.

Have the rules changed since Morrowind?

Nitrate55 wrote: And what if they're not giving you credit when they take your work? Or, better yet, they're claiming every bit of your work for themselves, fooling people into believing that they are the ones who made it, that they're the ones who poured their hard work into it, and not you. I understand that you might not care, but there's a vast majority of people who do care about this kind of thing. People who cannot tolerate this kind of thing. For example, why would I want to continue creating my work at all if I know it's just going to get taken by someone else, that some thief out there is going to take credit for my work? I think it's enough to dissillusion some people from even modding at all in the first place

Solongchu wrote: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Read this and you will see that Beth doesnt own your mods.

RandomViolence222 wrote: Well modding would fall under derivative works, so yeah Bethesda owns your mods.

JeorgErsteman wrote: Not even remotely.
Especially in this case, where Beth has themselves granted the right, and the tools to create based on the work.
Then by directing those who have had their works taken by other parties to file legal claims.. they have wiped their hands of any claim to ownership.
You don't have to even be a shithouse lawyer to see that.
Plus it simply gets down to right and wrong.
If Beth revoked 'free pass' to mod their core program, they could then stipulate that any works are theirs. But, it still would be theft then if anyone posted any creation not their own anywhere.. as now they would be claiming, posting Beth's now declared property.. so no matter how you slice it.. if YOU didn't make it.. it aint yours to do anything with.

PirateZ86 wrote: No, Beth owns your mods. watch

. Read the EULA again.

mathiascronqvist wrote: RTFPost

FishBiter wrote: I mean did you even read the giant article up there? He covers this. He covers every single thing you said, and you're wrong... on every count.

wakkytabbaky wrote: those that say they wouldnt care if their mod was stolen / uploaded under someone elses name obviously has not spent the long hours of putting together a mod and being frustrated at every little problem that arises.

people that mod dont wake up in the morning and say today is a great day to create a mod for someone to steal

chuckles0000 wrote: That has already been covered. and even if bethesda were to pull some legal loophole, they would face immediate public backlash or worse.

Calinaas wrote: @Nitrate55 Actually there is a way to prove someone stole your work. It's the easiest way in the book.. check the time stamps of both mods. There's your proof. If someone was taking my mods and charging people for it they've already broken the law and Bethesda can technically sue them for it, also if the person who stole the mod tried everything in their power to pretend and lie they made it first. The time stamps don't lie. All I'd have to do is show people or the community my mod was uploaded first. I'm not saying it's okay to steal people's work. I'm just saying trying to prove it's stolen shouldn't be difficult.

DarkTl wrote: Uhh, time stamps? You locally change time and date on your pc and then resave the mod and all its files. Moreover, there is soft that allows you to change any files attributes, including time of creation and editing.

And if you propose to check time of uploading to bethesda.aids, it is not a proof, since a thief could do it sooner than the author.

Superbrony64 wrote:
Sure they can do it sooner than the author but if the Timestamp of when it went onto Nexus Mods server says say 12:46 June 8 2015 and the Timestamp of when it went to Bethesdas server said 14:16 July 20 2016. You can clearly see where the original came from. Also BETHESDA DOES NOT OWN YOUR MODS!!! When you put them through the creation kit Bethesda receives a LICENSE to do whatever they want with it. BUT that can be revoked by the OWNER WHICH IS THE MOD MAKER by pulling the mod from the server and telling bethesda to f*#@ off. In other words bethesda can use it but they CANT own it.

DarkTl wrote: I highly doubt Bethesda will accept as a proof dates from a website they don't own.

Superpinga wrote: if cooks talked like this there would be no "new"dishes....in essence weve been ripping old dishes and calling it our own.....thats the beauty of creativity.....now if people take credit for it...so what.....as a chef ive created dishes that now places i worked for feature and charge for it and i get no remuneration....

LonewolfMods wrote: someone taking a mod you have made in good faith for the community so that they can add more enjoyment to a game, is like taking all your assignment work at collage and giving you back an empty folder to hand to the tutor for grading.
I don't mind folks taking any mod I post up as LONG as they say "so n so made this mode" or "my mod is based on this mod by so n so" giving Credit to another author who first made the mod is not a hard thing, and frankly i think it should be done. its like someone slapping you in the face instead of saying thanks when you do something nice for them. Its not hard and only takes a bit of typing, its just simple common decency and courtesy. If you make a mod that is based off another be sure to give the first mod maker your thanks and credits for their hard work first. it is only a little bit of typing and maybe copy pasting of a link back to the first mod maker.

He is right

[Illiani]

In response to post #41968260. #42380895 is also a reply to the same post.

Dusty4life wrote:

Well, if i create mods for the new skyrim remastered version etc - i'll probably try and find a way that a pc version cannot work on the console with out a code or some such ensuring a mod cannot be ported and uploaded to bethesda.net etc with out my express permission. Nothing about console players, naturally.

LonewolfMods wrote: If you find out how to do that, Be sure to let the rest of us know dusty. that sounds like a good plan to protect mods from being stolen easily.

It really makes me sad that the community has been forced into a situation where Modders feel that they need to find some kind of "Mod DRM" to protect their work.

I'm not criticising the idea. Do what you need to feel your work is safe. Its just... well... sad that its come to this. :(

[DeviousLuxray]

Change the user terms and work with Zeri and a few lawyers, get Bethesda to uphold Zeri's rights legally and start going after mod thieves by back-tracing the uploads against users here?