On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[SephDragoon]

I really like this actually. I have so far uploaded two of my mods to the Nexus, one popular, and one fledgling, to see what the pains would be on Bethesda.net, and I do intend to continue porting my mods over. However, the more I watch the PC section of that site, the more I think I may only upload for consoles to Bethesda.net. I have yet to receive a single comment on the PC upload, but many comments on the XB1 uploads.

 

Console users deserve to be able to get mods, however as an author, I don't think that the times for release on PC and release on consoles will be too close. I already had several problems specific to either consoles or to Bethesda.net, like not being able to confirm all the files got uploaded (which they did not, leading to a major issue in one of my mods). I'm probably going to only upload onto consoles when I know that the mod is stable and won't be changing much.

 

Bethesda.net doesn't give useful tools like a bug report section, or the ability to upload optional versions of the mod (like compatibility patches between it and other mods). Therefore, anything that gets uploaded onto Bethesda.net has to be encapsulated.

[axonis]

In response to post #39472780. #39473085, #39473940 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: The article needs a bit of cleanup because it currently looks like a straw man argument:

"mods on console are bad due to how it’s affecting the PC modding community" (direct quote from the article) because Bethesda.net doesn't respect author's rights diligently enough ?

These are different things. While the latter is probably correct, I just don't understand how it relates to the former.

Kukassin wrote: Different things, but they definitely collide.

Some people are taking down their work even from the Nexus so it won't be the target of theft, and as such, this is hurting even the Nexus community.

Some are even implementing DRM of sorts so console versions of the game will get mauled and won't work.

As long as mod authors see the console community support blatant theft and tell the original authors to f*#@ off and that they are elitist cunts in the Beth.net comments section (that is a very very common thing), they will puff the f*#@ up and deny access to their work. That is the fault of the console community and that is why not respecting the authors (on Bethesda's AND the community's part) and console modding both affect the PC community in a bad way.

Dark0ne wrote: You're quoting my rhetorical quote from an aside (within the "time out" section) as if it was the main point of the article. So basically, you're misquoting me there.

OK then, but why are consoles mentioned in this article ? It seems to be only related to Bethesda.net

[StupidDunmer]

Modding isn't fun anymore. :(

[StupidDunmer]

In response to post #39475030.

ratrace wrote: My guess on why Bethesda, the father who left us us at birth with the tools to survive (to quote your metaphor, Dark0ne), is suddenly back now is the following:
They are preparing another paid mods debacle. Simple as that. And they want to cash grab with minimal effort in the same way that they release their games. Once again they've shown their indifference towards the modding community. They could have known better from the Valve / Steam workshop crap. But they chose to ignore that. They chose. I can't stress that enough.

I can only speak for myself, but I must be clear: There's only ONE reason for me to play a Bethesda game at all: the mods. Their vanilla stuff is mediocre at best. So the dumbest thing Bethesda could do is upset the modders.

I don't think so. It would cause mayhem if they did, and they know that.

[etholas]

Simply put, after this colossal stuff up, if all mod authors simply removed their mods and stopped modding entirely I would not blame them in the slightest. In fact I'd applaud them for one reason, theft is theft, no matter how you rationalise it. The creator or author of any mod has the right to decide where, how, and by whom it may be used or shared with. Mod authors are amongst the most talented, creative, and generous people on the planet and this is how they are repaid, not only by the thieves stealing their work, but Bethesda as well. Personally I feel that mod authors should simply remove or hide their work and cease releasing content. That would render this entire argument moot. Edited June 17, 2016 by etholas

[Deleted25855400User]

"If you disagree then you’re a part of some extreme-right side of the “PC Master Race"

Lmao, I didn't think I'd see the got to left-wing "ur raycist!" response on a Modding website.

[daedriccat]

In response to post #39468355. #39468585, #39469950, #39474765, #39474955, #39475210 are all replies on the same post.

Izaki131 wrote: The author could've done without the long SJW-esque rant. Maybe you should give modding ON a console a try if you like them so much.

balwick wrote: You silly tart, you're exactly the type of person he tells to sod off in the post.

HadToRegister wrote:

Izaki131 0 kudos 1 posts
The author could've done without the long SJW-esque rant. Maybe you should give modding ON a console a try if you like them so much.

1 whole post.
Did you make an account JUST to post that dribble?

jim_uk wrote: Did you understand any of what was written?

Dahveed wrote: Terrible.

You are EXACTLY the sort of person who contributes to all these problems in the first place.

Kukassin wrote: I despise SJWs, but Robin sure isn't one and he's right about what he said.

SJW-esque? Please. There's no SJW here.

I haven't played console in years, but I know they are becoming more powerful and capable. Modding consoles is inevitable and it's a good thing. Why should they be left out? I don't get why anyone resents that.

[Deleted2530535User]

In response to post #39471205. #39473665, #39474105, #39474445, #39475240 are all replies on the same post.

Jusey1 wrote: I didn't fully read this, just skimmed through it. BUT that is because I already know everything that's going on, so I generally agree with what you're saying or at least what you are getting at.

However, from what I've read. You miss a few things, and there is some stupidity in there that you shouldn't have said at all.

Firstly, this modding business is a problem because of everybody involved. What I am saying is that there are more people making this a mess, than just the thefts themselves...

1. The thieves themselves for starting this ordeal... HOWEVER, there is probably two types of thieves going on. Console people who just wants to play the mod but has no idea why they shouldn't... And PC people who wants to cause trouble in the first place, or are PC elitists and wants to crash console users in general, giving no f*#@s about the modders themselves...

2. The console users who knowingly supports the thefts. Now, these people are pretty rare but they do exists and just having a few will cause any modder to be upset and highly judgemental.

3. The modders themselves being stupid over this crap. Yes, people stole ye' s#*! and etc. Don't rant about it, don't go private, don't be stupid... Mods are your work and you should continue releasing your work, to as many people as possible. If someone stole a mod of yours, do what you need to do to fix it and let Bethesda know that they need to make a better system on Bethesda.net, but don't stop modding and don't make your mods go private. If possible, release those mods for console users yourself. That would greatly lower the chances of them stealing your mods.

Secondly, yes. Bethesda needs to do something to Bethesda.net and they are planning to do something at least. But we don't know how successful it will be until they do it. People also shouldn't complain about how long it takes for them to do it. Yes, they need to take action ASAP but they're are planning to put in a new system to help the modders and console users. They need to do it right, which can and will take some time to do it right. The longer they suggested means that they are really paying attention to this system and really want to put out something that works.

Lastly, paid mods are NOT gonna happen again. Don't be a doomsayer with that stupid stuff.

Kukassin wrote: Agreed, although they have every right to go private and I don't think any of the 2 options are better.

What I do think is better is adding a DRM system which would inform the user (if on console) to delete the mod and report it and if not, it will damage their game.

About your second point, there are actually quite many that support it, not rare whatsoever. Pretty much every comment on the stolen pages is from them and there are TONS of them on YouTube videos, everywhere really. Again, not a rarity whatsoever.

turoktony wrote: Regarding number 3, Dark0ne already adressed your comment. A mod author should not continue releasing their work if they do not want to. At the end of the day, it is THEIR work. No one has the right to tell them what to do with it or pressure them in any way to port the mod to consoles.

You should complain about how long Bethesda takes to put a system to prevent this stuff in place. At the time of writing this comment, people are still stealing mods. It should be Bethesda's top priority to keep their community satisfied, but frankly they don't really seem to be giving a s#*! at this point. If they never will give a s#*!, then at least they could be kind enough to let us know so we can just abandon Fallout 4 and all their future RPGs.

Lastly, paid mods are DEFINITELY going to happen again. Come on, man. Why do you think this entire console modding thing was created anyway? So that Bethesda will be able to milk the modding community in the future! The situation with Skyrim was just a test. Now a system has been put in place to allow them to start selling you mods pretty early in the game's life, in an attempt to milk everyone as much as possible. Sadly this is what corporations have devolved into. Nobody gives a s#*! about us anymore. All we really, truly are to Bethesda (or rather ZeniMax) is sentient wallets, waiting to be exploited so they can earn yet more money. Gotta love capitalism, am I right? Paid mods will definitely not kill the modding community, though. There will always be mod authors that will offer their mods for free, and those certainly deserve donations for the effort they have put in their mods.

Jusey1 wrote: Huh. I rarely see people supporting the actual thefts myself.

MurdermiesteR wrote: Check Bethesda.net for theft supporters. They host threads and can be found all over "test" files.

As an author myself, I find Beth.net toxic and have moved to modding Witcher 3 until the site begins supporting the authors. Our content is ours to do with as we will. Until that is recognized only my good friends will have access to my work.

The reality is the grand majority of these mod users on console don't care one way or the other if it's stolen - as long as they get to use it, that's what matters to them.

Modders aren't stupid for being emotional or angry - many of them have spent dozens, sometimes hundreds of hours on works that take you fifteen minutes to download and install. It's hardly anyone's place to tell them what to do with their content. Good on them for taking it down! People who would be complicit in using stolen content or ignoring the problem don't deserve it.

There's no stupidity in Dark0ne's article but this comments section sure comes close.

[RoyBatterian]

In response to post #39468315. #39468760, #39469375, #39469590, #39473275, #39474995 are all replies on the same post.

R0NlN wrote: I hesitate to post this (since most people aren't very open to criticism, no matter how constructive-- that's just human nature), but in the end I feel compelled to do so. That was a painful read, which means it probably didn't accomplish what you wanted it to.

I know you have some important points to make, but there's a lot of brush to clear to find them. Please, in the future, edit before you publish. Provide an introduction that previews your main points, develop those points in the body, and finish with a summary. Go through each line (or at least each paragraph) and ask yourself, "Does this need to be here? Can it be shortened or reworded, to make the point more concisely?"

Try saying in a few words what you've said here in 5,127. You have to grab your readers' attention, get your message across, and wrap it up as quickly as the subject allows.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice. I only want to help you write articles that will impact your audience.

Dark0ne wrote: I hated English Lit class for this very reason.

These posts have always been a practical opinion-dump on my part. Almost as though you're reading what I would have said out loud, unedited and uncut. My honest opinion.

Believe it or not these articles do go through extensive editing, reworking of paragraphs, the removal of others and reorganising the structure, so the end result is exactly how I wanted the article to read.

All in all, it took about 6 hours to write and edit this particular article.

jackty89 wrote: I tough it was a good article it's written in the style "I'm in front of you talking". I really think it's a good read, a bit long but for a subject like this I'm rather certain that being short would leave to much for interpretation and that is something you want to avoid. I do think he should have added a TLDR; at the end as a lot of people... dislike reading unlike me :p

Thallassa wrote:

In response to post #39468315. #39468760, #39469375 are all replies on the same post.

Perhaps you shouldn't hate on legalese so much though...

Edit: What I mean is, legalese is a writing style that serves a particular purposes and does it very well. You also defend your writing style as suitable for your purpose, even if others find it a bit dense. So why complain about other people's language? :tongue:

Edit 2: Do all the swear words in your post mean swearing is ok on nexus now? Damn! :D

R0NlN wrote: This is a reply to Dark0ne, in response to _his_ reply to me:

That's fine, it's your choice. Just as long as you realize that a not-insubstantial number of people will give up on the "stream of consciousness" type of writing, never having learned what it was that you wanted them to take away from it.

Thanks much for taking my post in the spirit in which it was intended!

icecreamassassin wrote: While feedback and subjective opinion about this article may be valid, is this really the place for this? Is it really more important to be dissecting Robbin's writing style than to focus on the purpose of the content?

@RONIN

I facepalmed over this comment, and had to reply even though I don't really want to get involved.

You don't speak for other users at all, only yourself. Comments like these only serve to derail the topic and reveal your personal issues with control and the need to make others communicate with you on your terms.

In summary, you may want to keep your unsolicited advice to yourself because reasons.

[malakengago]

In response to post #39471205. #39473665, #39474105, #39474445, #39475240, #39476395 are all replies on the same post.

Jusey1 wrote: I didn't fully read this, just skimmed through it. BUT that is because I already know everything that's going on, so I generally agree with what you're saying or at least what you are getting at.

However, from what I've read. You miss a few things, and there is some stupidity in there that you shouldn't have said at all.

Firstly, this modding business is a problem because of everybody involved. What I am saying is that there are more people making this a mess, than just the thefts themselves...

1. The thieves themselves for starting this ordeal... HOWEVER, there is probably two types of thieves going on. Console people who just wants to play the mod but has no idea why they shouldn't... And PC people who wants to cause trouble in the first place, or are PC elitists and wants to crash console users in general, giving no f*#@s about the modders themselves...

2. The console users who knowingly supports the thefts. Now, these people are pretty rare but they do exists and just having a few will cause any modder to be upset and highly judgemental.

3. The modders themselves being stupid over this crap. Yes, people stole ye' s#*! and etc. Don't rant about it, don't go private, don't be stupid... Mods are your work and you should continue releasing your work, to as many people as possible. If someone stole a mod of yours, do what you need to do to fix it and let Bethesda know that they need to make a better system on Bethesda.net, but don't stop modding and don't make your mods go private. If possible, release those mods for console users yourself. That would greatly lower the chances of them stealing your mods.

Secondly, yes. Bethesda needs to do something to Bethesda.net and they are planning to do something at least. But we don't know how successful it will be until they do it. People also shouldn't complain about how long it takes for them to do it. Yes, they need to take action ASAP but they're are planning to put in a new system to help the modders and console users. They need to do it right, which can and will take some time to do it right. The longer they suggested means that they are really paying attention to this system and really want to put out something that works.

Lastly, paid mods are NOT gonna happen again. Don't be a doomsayer with that stupid stuff.

Kukassin wrote: Agreed, although they have every right to go private and I don't think any of the 2 options are better.

What I do think is better is adding a DRM system which would inform the user (if on console) to delete the mod and report it and if not, it will damage their game.

About your second point, there are actually quite many that support it, not rare whatsoever. Pretty much every comment on the stolen pages is from them and there are TONS of them on YouTube videos, everywhere really. Again, not a rarity whatsoever.

turoktony wrote: Regarding number 3, Dark0ne already adressed your comment. A mod author should not continue releasing their work if they do not want to. At the end of the day, it is THEIR work. No one has the right to tell them what to do with it or pressure them in any way to port the mod to consoles.

You should complain about how long Bethesda takes to put a system to prevent this stuff in place. At the time of writing this comment, people are still stealing mods. It should be Bethesda's top priority to keep their community satisfied, but frankly they don't really seem to be giving a s#*! at this point. If they never will give a s#*!, then at least they could be kind enough to let us know so we can just abandon Fallout 4 and all their future RPGs.

Lastly, paid mods are DEFINITELY going to happen again. Come on, man. Why do you think this entire console modding thing was created anyway? So that Bethesda will be able to milk the modding community in the future! The situation with Skyrim was just a test. Now a system has been put in place to allow them to start selling you mods pretty early in the game's life, in an attempt to milk everyone as much as possible. Sadly this is what corporations have devolved into. Nobody gives a s#*! about us anymore. All we really, truly are to Bethesda (or rather ZeniMax) is sentient wallets, waiting to be exploited so they can earn yet more money. Gotta love capitalism, am I right? Paid mods will definitely not kill the modding community, though. There will always be mod authors that will offer their mods for free, and those certainly deserve donations for the effort they have put in their mods.

Jusey1 wrote: Huh. I rarely see people supporting the actual thefts myself.

MurdermiesteR wrote: Check Bethesda.net for theft supporters. They host threads and can be found all over "test" files.

As an author myself, I find Beth.net toxic and have moved to modding Witcher 3 until the site begins supporting the authors. Our content is ours to do with as we will. Until that is recognized only my good friends will have access to my work.

MokChaoticran wrote: The reality is the grand majority of these mod users on console don't care one way or the other if it's stolen - as long as they get to use it, that's what matters to them.

Modders aren't stupid for being emotional or angry - many of them have spent dozens, sometimes hundreds of hours on works that take you fifteen minutes to download and install. It's hardly anyone's place to tell them what to do with their content. Good on them for taking it down! People who would be complicit in using stolen content or ignoring the problem don't deserve it.

There's no stupidity in Dark0ne's article but this comments section sure comes close.

I'd have to disagree with your belief that mod authors "should" do anything. Like Dark0ne said, they don't need to do anything, at all, like creating mods in the first place, let alone sharing them with anyone. They put their time and effort into something, they can do whatever the hell they want (short of illegal activities). He also stated that some mod authors just can't/don't want to make/maintain mods on two different sites and three different platforms, especially if the only thing they own is a PC. It's no problem for our new console community brethren to only own one system, but in essence, people are pretty much asking PC users to own all three, maintain versions for all three, and if they don't, well tough s#*! for them, they NEED to. Gopher had to purchase an XBox One because he has a certain standard for anything he releases, but guess what, he's a big name MA, and actually can make a decent living by really working in this community, which is amazing for him. The vast majority of MA's are not as fortunate or as dedicated. This is something they do because they love creating, they hated something that bugged them, or they were bored, and added something to the game, to make it (hopefully) better, and then decided to share it as well after. Creating and sharing do not automatically go hand in hand. From DDProductions83 GTKYMA, some of the big name MA's started because something bugged them or they wanted something that just wasn't in the game. Others had used other people's mods, and when they finally created something, they wanted (read: chose, decided) to share it with the community that had given them something.

And yes, no one should expect Bethesda to suddenly fix everything right away, but one of the main points that Dark0ne was talking about was that this is not a new situation for them. Plus, they have 14 years of knowledge and advice to use, and yet, they decided to just ignore everything. This "time" you want to give them, well, they had 14 years.

No one can say for certain whether paid modding will ever try to return, NO ONE. But based off Bethesda's recent actions, as well as re-releasing a 5 year old game on new consoles, with modding being yet again one of the big selling points, why would they put so much effort into a community they have largely ignored for almost a decade and a half (for which they would not be nearly as successful as they are now since let's face it, without mods, Bethesda games are not as great as they seem to be) without at least wanting to make some more money? Yes, they will make money from reselling Skyrim, but by giving away the new version to PC users (read: the people they need to create and maintain mods), they would be stupid to not even at least considering making money off of "labor-less" DLC.

TL;DR. I agree with Dark0ne, disagree with many points of Jusey1, and really, really hope Bethesda does something as quickly as possible to fix this situation they partially helped to create. I love their games, but only after I discovered modding and the community. Oblivion on my XBox was okay, but I never finished it because of it's many vanilla problems. Then I gave Fallout 3 a try, and found modding, and their games are now my favorites of all time. This community is awesome, and we'll need to work together to keep it awesome, but Bethesda needs to find their place in it, not the other way around.

Edit: Also, I find it hard to really give true consideration to posts replying to something they start off by saying "they didn't read all of it".
Edited June 17, 2016 by malakengago