On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

cogjar · June 17, 2016

I'm being told to grow up on a page about Skyrim. A game whos fanbase is mainly children.

And being told I'm a right-winger (Which is apparently a bad thing according to Dark0ne nice subtle nod to where you come from) for thinking the PC community, The PC abilities, the PC modding potential is better than that of consoles. I don't hold some elitist view or mindset for thinking consoles are lesser. I got one word to prove that PCs are better for modding. Forget the awful stealing community full of bad behavior and 12 year olds screaming JUST CHECK THE BOX!!!

SCRIPT EXTENDER Most of the worthwhile mods since MORROWIND have required this program to work. The lack of SE SEVERELY limits what you can use. But, Even simple stuff like graphics upgrades are a chore due to ... Okay well, Fo4 isn't the most demanding game but due to how unoptimized the game is it's pushing the consoles to their limit. Green World mods alone are enough to cause bad framerate drops on consoles do you really think they'd be able to handle much more? This isn't me trying to be elitist it's me being REAL.

Alkpaz · June 17, 2016

The modding community is nothing to a corporate entity like Bethesda. They don't care, they care about their bottom line, like any company, even you, should. I run a business myself. At the end of the day it is about paying your employees, rent/mortgage/auto/franchise taxes/etc. Customers are those who buy products, not sitting in your shop "chatting away". I paid Nexus because I support what your doing and I understand running a site takes, yanno, money. I've donated to authors who I feel deserved it. I will pull support of anyone trying to make a buck by charging for a "free service". But it is Bethesda's property. We are using it. Mod authors need to understand that what they create is ultimately owned by Bethesda. They can do as they see fit. If it angers the few people who "mod" their games, so be it. People will STILL buy their games. There isn't any money in it for them at this point. If they do start charging, that is another issue. Will I be fine with that? No, I will not support that, but I may buy a game or two by Bethesda down the road, but will be more selective. Just like EA, Valve, Blizzard, etc etc.. You vote with your wallet.

Feel free to disagree... I am not one of those "protesters". ;)

exShinra · June 17, 2016

Its in my view, detrimental for consoles to have mods.

Mods are one of the last bastion we have as PC gamers. Mods, graphics, and the keyboard and mouse. As we start getting more and more towards the uncanny valley, the only thing left will be consoles. We will be stuck with DLC, mods created solely on consoles (Remember Far Cry 2?).

We just don't f*#@ing want that. We don't want the dirty console peasants to reap our rewards, we want them to wisen up and make our community a better place.

Its not bigotry or doucheness to protect your community, especially when the console community as a whole does not appreciate what goes into the creation of mods. If they wanted to have mods, they should have went with PC, since thats our major selling point.

This has huge, overreaching concerns for many different markets to! If PC gaming falls, then graphic card makers like Nvida and AMD will fall as well. There will just be much less demand for their chips if the only practical application of the new GPUS is complex computations and rendering. The enthusiast class of PC gamers has driven technological progress more than the peasants ever will.

Stop trying to defend the console players. They don't give a s#*! about what goes into our work, they just want to eat the cake you've made without sharing it.

I hope the Nexus finds a way to punish mod thieves much more harshly. The best deterrent to crime is the nuclear option.

PonceMonster · June 17, 2016

I wouldn't exactly assume that we're assholes for hating on console mods... but yeah if they're clueless bastards who are just trying to be like everyone else, then why not? I mean, with most people, it's just that we feel a need to defend our community. We see this whole console mod thingie, and we think why does this have to matter, and apparently it does have to, for reasons need not apply. I mean, the only reason I would even hate or rant on the thing, is that they're both affecting our soldiers(assholes), and that there are just more... other ass holes who would just come in and jerk themselves at us, trying to shove their fallout 4 down our throats. I mean that's not always the case, but other than that, there are still people complaining about skyrim being an old ass game, or people still being shites and calling us out for being relentless or pointless for defending skyrim. All because of some crappy system that gives them some kind of obligation to feel ... better in some way? And apparently this Fof4 engine runs like s#*!, and with the exception of a brand new visually enhanced skyrim, comes a new creation kit. Which, noone is gonna use, and there are only really gonna be a couple of exceptions, which I don't think they'd even stay for long. Only real concern, is if they try and come out with this whole Paid mods thing and, and I can't say I am for it, with what they have been doing now.

But, with the general premise of what's really happening, I just see our soldiers(assholes) getting f*#@ed over by some kids that went over to buy an Xbox ONE but don't have a pc. Or that doesn't sound quite right.. it's more like Bethesda went over to do this thing for these kids but totally forgot about this thing for these guys, when they shouldn't have had to ask in the first place. Our community has in no way affected them, but they have done something to affect us. And no one blatantly asks bethesda to do something for the modders(assholes) or the community, we're just sitting here having our way with each other while we do our thing, simultaneously. There's really no excuse for the irresponsibility of what they're doing. They came up with this whole bethesda.net thing, but what does this have to do with Nexus mods? And, I watched the stream, apparently they didn't even bother talking to valve, nor nexus, nor the modders. So, they just went on with what they were planning, and apparently, they are just gonna get away with it, and do whatever. I doubt the modders(self-explanatory), have any rights if not for nexus, but in the first place if they're gonna ignore valve, they're definitely gonna ignore nexus. No one really complained, but then they had to go on and have mods for consoles.

Yeah... I don't like it one bit, even though I am not necessarily on the receiving end. It's just bullshit really, that the people that give us what we have today, just get f*#@ed over like that, and no one can really do anything about it. No one can really stop bethesda from going any further with what they're planning next, either.

izzier2750 · June 17, 2016

In response to post #39477025.

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Might I ask the reasoning for such intent?

Do you perhaps wish to take over Dark0ne's website (Nexus) all on your own? Do you want all the responsibilities that come with it?
Or do you just wanna claim all his past work as your own, as he is indeed addressing? Did you even read all 5k+ words, or just TL;DR's to the console modding bits?

In the more likely scenario, you probably just royally f*#@ed up with a comment thingy, meant to reply to someone else. Is that right?

Nimboss · June 17, 2016

In response to post #39468315. #39468760, #39469375, #39469590, #39473275, #39474995, #39476435 are all replies on the same post.

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R0NlN wrote: I hesitate to post this (since most people aren't very open to criticism, no matter how constructive-- that's just human nature), but in the end I feel compelled to do so. That was a painful read, which means it probably didn't accomplish what you wanted it to.

I know you have some important points to make, but there's a lot of brush to clear to find them. Please, in the future, edit before you publish. Provide an introduction that previews your main points, develop those points in the body, and finish with a summary. Go through each line (or at least each paragraph) and ask yourself, "Does this need to be here? Can it be shortened or reworded, to make the point more concisely?"

Try saying in a few words what you've said here in 5,127. You have to grab your readers' attention, get your message across, and wrap it up as quickly as the subject allows.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice. I only want to help you write articles that will impact your audience.

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Dark0ne wrote: I hated English Lit class for this very reason.

These posts have always been a practical opinion-dump on my part. Almost as though you're reading what I would have said out loud, unedited and uncut. My honest opinion.

Believe it or not these articles do go through extensive editing, reworking of paragraphs, the removal of others and reorganising the structure, so the end result is exactly how I wanted the article to read.

All in all, it took about 6 hours to write and edit this particular article.

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jackty89 wrote: I tough it was a good article it's written in the style "I'm in front of you talking". I really think it's a good read, a bit long but for a subject like this I'm rather certain that being short would leave to much for interpretation and that is something you want to avoid. I do think he should have added a TLDR; at the end as a lot of people... dislike reading unlike me :p

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Thallassa wrote:
In response to post #39468315. #39468760, #39469375 are all replies on the same post.

Perhaps you shouldn't hate on legalese so much though...

Edit: What I mean is, legalese is a writing style that serves a particular purposes and does it very well. You also defend your writing style as suitable for your purpose, even if others find it a bit dense. So why complain about other people's language? :tongue:

Edit 2: Do all the swear words in your post mean swearing is ok on nexus now? Damn! :D

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R0NlN wrote: This is a reply to Dark0ne, in response to _his_ reply to me:

That's fine, it's your choice. Just as long as you realize that a not-insubstantial number of people will give up on the "stream of consciousness" type of writing, never having learned what it was that you wanted them to take away from it.

Thanks much for taking my post in the spirit in which it was intended!

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icecreamassassin wrote: While feedback and subjective opinion about this article may be valid, is this really the place for this? Is it really more important to be dissecting Robbin's writing style than to focus on the purpose of the content?

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RoyBatterian wrote: @RONIN

I facepalmed over this comment, and had to reply even though I don't really want to get involved.

You don't speak for other users at all, only yourself. Comments like these only serve to derail the topic and reveal your personal issues with control and the need to make others communicate with you on your terms.

In summary, you may want to keep your unsolicited advice to yourself because reasons.

@R0NIN
I'm not even native in English and had not the slightest problem to understand what Dark0ne posted or the reason for it.

If this was supposed to be an essay or high level poetry I might buy your concern, but this is more of a news flash, reported by someone knowledgeable in the centre of the trouble.

To address your advice what kind of audience do you represent?

OnTopic: This as already told derail the purpose of the more important data presented by Dark0ne, why not focus on that instead of "styles" on writing?

Canderis · June 17, 2016

what about the mass amounts of mods you guys just reuploaded from filefront? I certainly didn't give my permission for mine to be uploaded here.

jackty89 · June 17, 2016

In response to post #39477705.

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The Matrix Prime wrote: Really?

Dislike against "console mods" is a thing? Like a real thing? Not something made up like "Homophobia" or "Islamicphobia" or something? I mean, I've never felt anything but sorry for people who had no other option but to use the console - mods are the reason I stopped playing on the X-Box (other then occasionally) and play games on the computer instead. If consoles can use mods too - which is big news - then it only means the community grows even larger. Isn't that a good thing?

Why would the idea of "console modding" annoy anybody? I still have trouble believing that it's a real thing - at least the way the Dark0ne describes. If you don't use a console, then what real difference to you is it going to make? And if you do, wouldn't it be a good thing? I mean the atrocious (read British) spelling on Nexus annoys me far more then the concept of "console modding" and I download from Nexus nearly every week (use to be everyday before work-life increased).

As to mod theft, it's a very ugly thing for someone to do, but I don't really see how "console modding" really affects that one way or the other. If people are going to steal, they are going to do regardless of consoles being able to mod. And while "stealing" someone's mod - which I understand is really stealing the credit for creating said mod - is certainly wrong, it's not like anyone is getting paid for it - so I can understand why Bethsaida wouldn't care much. I mean, when people over in Asia were downloading mods and SELLING them on disks in stores, I could understand the outrage - but in this case, a few sleazy types are just fooling new gullible console users into thinking that the sleazebags made the mod when it was in fact someone else. A rather sleazy thing to do just to try to get your 15 minutes of fame, but it's not really hurting anyone. Eventually the console users will gain experience and these sleazy types will have to move on.

Don't get me wrong, I think its bad, but it's not exactly a crisis. I mean, if it means that much, the original authors (or someone) can PM every user that downloads a "stolen" mod and tell them who the actual credit belongs too.

Yes hate against console mods a thing, i think the grudge for some people start because of , 1. Console exclusives 2. Console fanboy-ism shitting on PC and mods (aka mods are cheats) 3. The ungratefulness of console users etc etc but some people take these thing rather serious and that how "hate" can start manifesting itself

Jusey1 · June 17, 2016

In response to post #39471205. #39473665, #39474105, #39474445, #39475240, #39476395, #39476505 are all replies on the same post.

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Jusey1 wrote: I didn't fully read this, just skimmed through it. BUT that is because I already know everything that's going on, so I generally agree with what you're saying or at least what you are getting at.

However, from what I've read. You miss a few things, and there is some stupidity in there that you shouldn't have said at all.

Firstly, this modding business is a problem because of everybody involved. What I am saying is that there are more people making this a mess, than just the thefts themselves...

1. The thieves themselves for starting this ordeal... HOWEVER, there is probably two types of thieves going on. Console people who just wants to play the mod but has no idea why they shouldn't... And PC people who wants to cause trouble in the first place, or are PC elitists and wants to crash console users in general, giving no f*#@s about the modders themselves...

2. The console users who knowingly supports the thefts. Now, these people are pretty rare but they do exists and just having a few will cause any modder to be upset and highly judgemental.

3. The modders themselves being stupid over this crap. Yes, people stole ye' s#*! and etc. Don't rant about it, don't go private, don't be stupid... Mods are your work and you should continue releasing your work, to as many people as possible. If someone stole a mod of yours, do what you need to do to fix it and let Bethesda know that they need to make a better system on Bethesda.net, but don't stop modding and don't make your mods go private. If possible, release those mods for console users yourself. That would greatly lower the chances of them stealing your mods.

Secondly, yes. Bethesda needs to do something to Bethesda.net and they are planning to do something at least. But we don't know how successful it will be until they do it. People also shouldn't complain about how long it takes for them to do it. Yes, they need to take action ASAP but they're are planning to put in a new system to help the modders and console users. They need to do it right, which can and will take some time to do it right. The longer they suggested means that they are really paying attention to this system and really want to put out something that works.

Lastly, paid mods are NOT gonna happen again. Don't be a doomsayer with that stupid stuff.

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Kukassin wrote: Agreed, although they have every right to go private and I don't think any of the 2 options are better.

What I do think is better is adding a DRM system which would inform the user (if on console) to delete the mod and report it and if not, it will damage their game.

About your second point, there are actually quite many that support it, not rare whatsoever. Pretty much every comment on the stolen pages is from them and there are TONS of them on YouTube videos, everywhere really. Again, not a rarity whatsoever.

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turoktony wrote: Regarding number 3, Dark0ne already adressed your comment. A mod author should not continue releasing their work if they do not want to. At the end of the day, it is THEIR work. No one has the right to tell them what to do with it or pressure them in any way to port the mod to consoles.

You should complain about how long Bethesda takes to put a system to prevent this stuff in place. At the time of writing this comment, people are still stealing mods. It should be Bethesda's top priority to keep their community satisfied, but frankly they don't really seem to be giving a s#*! at this point. If they never will give a s#*!, then at least they could be kind enough to let us know so we can just abandon Fallout 4 and all their future RPGs.

Lastly, paid mods are DEFINITELY going to happen again. Come on, man. Why do you think this entire console modding thing was created anyway? So that Bethesda will be able to milk the modding community in the future! The situation with Skyrim was just a test. Now a system has been put in place to allow them to start selling you mods pretty early in the game's life, in an attempt to milk everyone as much as possible. Sadly this is what corporations have devolved into. Nobody gives a s#*! about us anymore. All we really, truly are to Bethesda (or rather ZeniMax) is sentient wallets, waiting to be exploited so they can earn yet more money. Gotta love capitalism, am I right? Paid mods will definitely not kill the modding community, though. There will always be mod authors that will offer their mods for free, and those certainly deserve donations for the effort they have put in their mods.

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Jusey1 wrote: Huh. I rarely see people supporting the actual thefts myself.

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MurdermiesteR wrote: Check Bethesda.net for theft supporters. They host threads and can be found all over "test" files.

As an author myself, I find Beth.net toxic and have moved to modding Witcher 3 until the site begins supporting the authors. Our content is ours to do with as we will. Until that is recognized only my good friends will have access to my work.

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MokChaoticran wrote: The reality is the grand majority of these mod users on console don't care one way or the other if it's stolen - as long as they get to use it, that's what matters to them.

Modders aren't stupid for being emotional or angry - many of them have spent dozens, sometimes hundreds of hours on works that take you fifteen minutes to download and install. It's hardly anyone's place to tell them what to do with their content. Good on them for taking it down! People who would be complicit in using stolen content or ignoring the problem don't deserve it.

There's no stupidity in Dark0ne's article but this comments section sure comes close.

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malakengago wrote: I'd have to disagree with your belief that mod authors "should" do anything. Like Dark0ne said, they don't need to do anything, at all, like creating mods in the first place, let alone sharing them with anyone. They put their time and effort into something, they can do whatever the hell they want (short of illegal activities). He also stated that some mod authors just can't/don't want to make/maintain mods on two different sites and three different platforms, especially if the only thing they own is a PC. It's no problem for our new console community brethren to only own one system, but in essence, people are pretty much asking PC users to own all three, maintain versions for all three, and if they don't, well tough s#*! for them, they NEED to. Gopher had to purchase an XBox One because he has a certain standard for anything he releases, but guess what, he's a big name MA, and actually can make a decent living by really working in this community, which is amazing for him. The vast majority of MA's are not as fortunate or as dedicated. This is something they do because they love creating, they hated something that bugged them, or they were bored, and added something to the game, to make it (hopefully) better, and then decided to share it as well after. Creating and sharing do not automatically go hand in hand. From DDProductions83 GTKYMA, some of the big name MA's started because something bugged them or they wanted something that just wasn't in the game. Others had used other people's mods, and when they finally created something, they wanted (read: chose, decided) to share it with the community that had given them something.

And yes, no one should expect Bethesda to suddenly fix everything right away, but one of the main points that Dark0ne was talking about was that this is not a new situation for them. Plus, they have 14 years of knowledge and advice to use, and yet, they decided to just ignore everything. This "time" you want to give them, well, they had 14 years.

No one can say for certain whether paid modding will ever try to return, NO ONE. But based off Bethesda's recent actions, as well as re-releasing a 5 year old game on new consoles, with modding being yet again one of the big selling points, why would they put so much effort into a community they have largely ignored for almost a decade and a half (for which they would not be nearly as successful as they are now since let's face it, without mods, Bethesda games are not as great as they seem to be) without at least wanting to make some more money? Yes, they will make money from reselling Skyrim, but by giving away the new version to PC users (read: the people they need to create and maintain mods), they would be stupid to not even at least considering making money off of "labor-less" DLC.

TL;DR. I agree with Dark0ne, disagree with many points of Jusey1, and really, really hope Bethesda does something as quickly as possible to fix this situation they partially helped to create. I love their games, but only after I discovered modding and the community. Oblivion on my XBox was okay, but I never finished it because of it's many vanilla problems. Then I gave Fallout 3 a try, and found modding, and their games are now my favorites of all time. This community is awesome, and we'll need to work together to keep it awesome, but Bethesda needs to find their place in it, not the other way around.

Edit: Also, I find it hard to really give true consideration to posts replying to something they start off by saying "they didn't read all of it".

I would like to "correct myself" as what I meant as "should"...

When I said "should", I am speaking with the assumption that a modder might want to make a career out of their work, being very serious with their work, and so on. If you do mods for fun, and just for yourself then that's fine. Do whatever you want with your mods as you wish. However, if you really wanna be serious and even have a donation system set-up, then you have to take your work seriously. Don't just "do whatever you want" with your mods, because A: It hurts your image, and B: people who might've actually donated for your service is getting screwed, and thusly you're showing disrespect to people who have supported you.

So, if you are doing modding in a serious way, than you shouldn't remove your mods, you shouldn't be childish with this ordeal, and you should take your work seriously, rather than just thinking "Oh, it's my work. I can do whatever I want with it"... Because, if you do that kind of s#*! while attempting to be serious, then you shouldn't be taken seriously and you're only hurting yourself in the long term.

I take my own modding works seriously, because it's where I begun. Yes, I didn't share much of anything really and didn't ask for donations, because I was using my modding work as practice. But I took it seriously because I have an interest in having a career in game designing, and if I did have any mods uploaded and shared with others, I'll keep them officially up for anyone and will attempt to share them to console users (which I'm planning to do with at least one of my mods)... And why? Because I take my work seriously. I'm not gonna be selfish with my work. I'm not gonna be childish...

And modders who are on a higher scale than that, especially asking and even making money from donations? Yes, again, they should take their work seriously and NOT be childish.

Oh and I probably should've said childish, not stupid. I do apologize for bad wording.

JimboUK · June 17, 2016

In response to post #39477300.

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It'll only work if they start banning the thieves, if they just remove the files as they do now then it will achieve nothing.

On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

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