On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[jet4571]

Another topic..

 

DMCA was never meant to be the first response. It was always meant to be the last response and the first for legal action. Copyright holders were supposed to still make a request to the offender to remove the copyright violation in good faith without starting a legal battle when doing so. DMCA was for when the in good faith requests failed and the copyright owner is saying the next step involves a courtroom. The Nexus rules and moderation follows what the DMCA was meant to be, a last resort before a lawsuit. Robin, please don't go corporate, all your hard work will be trashed and all copyright claims will require a DMCA to get attention even if it is against the spirit of the law... Spirit that's dead and rotted away thanks to corporations.

[LordCybot]

I've seen several authors who have just decided to incorporate SKSE and F4SE as requirements for their mods since consoles physically cant run the script extenders. A fairly clever solution.

[jet4571]

Fu...c...k me another topic...

 

"Bethesda are like a father who left you at birth with all the tools you need to survive. They weren’t there for you, they haven’t looked after you or protected you when you needed it, but they did leave you to fend for yourself with some pretty good tools. Sure, without them you wouldn’t have ever existed and the tools they provided were invaluable in staying alive, but ultimately it was you, the person with the tools that made you the person you are today."

 

Umm no. Mod tools are not always given to make mods and though helpful not always needed, Take Mass Effect 1-3 mods. Take mods for Skyrim or FO4 before Bethesda released the CK. "Daddy came home and passed out on the couch after his latest bender and for the next two years you walked by and poked him with a stick to see if he twitches and he didn't". Is a better analogy.

[Hutspot01]

What upsets me most is that Bethesda seemingly took no notice of the glaring holes in their service with regards to mod (or mod asset) theft. It should have been a prime consideration from the very first moment they conceptualized Bethnet. They are creators themselves after all. They go to great lengths to protect their own work, so how come they so easily omit the rights/desires of others?

 

What also bothers me is that whenever Beth gets involved with the creative community that's grown around their games these days they usually have a polarizing effect. Even though their intentions usually seem to be 'positive'.

 

There seems to be a massive disconnect here.

[JN273]

In response to post #39491315. #39496050, #39497250, #39531815 are all replies on the same post.

tvs_frank wrote: I think the simplest solution to this would be to just make your mod rely the SKSE libraries, even something as basic as a texture replacer. There must be a way, right?

qasm0ke wrote: SKSE for Skyrim and F4SE for Fallout 4. This way the developer can focus & care about only for PC. That's the way I think.

I don't have any console so I couldn't test anyway. My Skyrim mods are all require SKSE, so if the so-called 'thief' stole my mod to Bethesda market, he can't play it on non-PC environment.

Darkstorne wrote: That's not a solution though. It's a temporary preventative measure to avoid theft, that prevents ALL console users enjoying a mod because of the arrogance of a very small minority who would resort to theft.

A solution has to come from Bethesda, so that mod authors can feel safe about releasing their content wherever they choose, without fear of theft, because they can trust Bethesda to work as hard as the Nexus staff to do protect their creations.

Consoles on mods could be a wonderful thing. The reason we're all here is because we love modding our Bethesda games on PC, to get a lot more out of them, and I'm really glad console users will be getting a similar experience from now on. Bethesda definitely need to step it up though, and focus on protecting content instead of blatantly focusing on a method of trying to reintroduce paid mods with a 75/25 split in favour of themselves and Valve again...

jonboy wrote: Perhaps some sort of key or other dependency check, one for each platform? Something you tick off in the CK, which embeds this dependency within the file where no one can (easily) change. This version is for PC/XB1/PS4 only or any combination of.

And the mod would still work on a console. Even if it requires SKSE or FOSE, you can still download the mod. They're never included in the mod, hence the mod would work because it's just a "fake" requirement.

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39491315. #39496050, #39497250, #39531815, #39534800 are all replies on the same post.

tvs_frank wrote: I think the simplest solution to this would be to just make your mod rely the SKSE libraries, even something as basic as a texture replacer. There must be a way, right?

qasm0ke wrote: SKSE for Skyrim and F4SE for Fallout 4. This way the developer can focus & care about only for PC. That's the way I think.

I don't have any console so I couldn't test anyway. My Skyrim mods are all require SKSE, so if the so-called 'thief' stole my mod to Bethesda market, he can't play it on non-PC environment.

Darkstorne wrote: That's not a solution though. It's a temporary preventative measure to avoid theft, that prevents ALL console users enjoying a mod because of the arrogance of a very small minority who would resort to theft.

A solution has to come from Bethesda, so that mod authors can feel safe about releasing their content wherever they choose, without fear of theft, because they can trust Bethesda to work as hard as the Nexus staff to do protect their creations.

Consoles on mods could be a wonderful thing. The reason we're all here is because we love modding our Bethesda games on PC, to get a lot more out of them, and I'm really glad console users will be getting a similar experience from now on. Bethesda definitely need to step it up though, and focus on protecting content instead of blatantly focusing on a method of trying to reintroduce paid mods with a 75/25 split in favour of themselves and Valve again...

jonboy wrote: Perhaps some sort of key or other dependency check, one for each platform? Something you tick off in the CK, which embeds this dependency within the file where no one can (easily) change. This version is for PC/XB1/PS4 only or any combination of.

JN273 wrote: And the mod would still work on a console. Even if it requires SKSE or FOSE, you can still download the mod. They're never included in the mod, hence the mod would work because it's just a "fake" requirement.

@jonboy - what if the original mod author wants to change it in the future? Even if you have a good answer for that question, a feature like what you're proposing would require a pretty thorough rewrite of how the CK works. By default, the tools implicitly trust the user and grant full read/write access to the esp or esm.

I think requiring script extenders in mods is a good temporary solution until Bethesda gets their s#*! together and fixes Bethesda.net's frankly unprofessional problems. Edited June 19, 2016 by Tantalus010

[ravernware]

In response to post #39534425.

jet4571 wrote: Fu...c...k me another topic...

"Bethesda are like a father who left you at birth with all the tools you need to survive. They weren’t there for you, they haven’t looked after you or protected you when you needed it, but they did leave you to fend for yourself with some pretty good tools. Sure, without them you wouldn’t have ever existed and the tools they provided were invaluable in staying alive, but ultimately it was you, the person with the tools that made you the person you are today."

Umm no. Mod tools are not always given to make mods and though helpful not always needed, Take Mass Effect 1-3 mods. Take mods for Skyrim or FO4 before Bethesda released the CK. "Daddy came home and passed out on the couch after his latest bender and for the next two years you walked by and poked him with a stick to see if he twitches and he didn't". Is a better analogy.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!
Except for the next two years I kept stabbing the bastard with a pocket knife. Took him that long to...
oh.. did I really just say that? Oops

Seriously tho.. both points/analysis are well said and imo spot on. Edited June 19, 2016 by ravernware

[ManleySteele]

I've only been a member here since 2012, so not nearly so long as many of the people here. I don't comment very often on these posts. Most of my comments are on file pages and are limited to telling a particular mod author how much I like their work. When I don't like a mod, I just pass it by without comment. That's the standard here. The standards are not hard to understand or follow. I've been playing games for a long time, on computers for more than 30 years and on consoles almost as long.

 

A console is a computer. I know some of you don't want to hear that, but it is true. The only substantive difference between a console and a PC is that a console is frozen in time for some arbitrary period. (The length of time a console is frozen is not actually very arbitrary. That's just a rhetorical device. I'm sure you understand the point.) The games have the same shortcoming. Some day, for each game, the time comes that the developer has to claim it is finished and release it. No different than any other piece of software or hardware. How long they continue active support is not arbitrary either. They all must move on to the next project or watch their company go out of business. When a game company, like BSW, supports modding on their titles, they expect a return on their investment and, by and large, they get it in the form of a prolonged shelf life for their titles.

 

Microsoft, Sony and any other console makers see the advantage of mod support for the titles on their devices and they would be crazy not to do everything in their power to enable mods for consoles. It's just too much money to leave on the table for any reasonable manager. They have been trying to figure it out for a long time. It is the same with paid mods. Paid mods will be back, as soon as they can figure out how to do it. Nothing you can do or say will stop it. You can step away and not participate, but that will only change your experience. It won't do diddley to stop it. It's coming. Wrap your head around that or be bypassed. Those are your only choices. I know that free advice is worth less than you pay for it, but my advice is to stop hating on consollers and consoles. It's a waste of your time, focus and effort.

 

Having said all that, I wish to state that I agree with Robin's assessment of the situation in every particular. Bethesda has already jumped into the deep end without looking hard enough, twice, recently. Sooner or later they'll figure it all out because they have no other viable option. I'm hoping for sooner. I'm just not spending a lot of expectation on that hope.

 

Correcting other peoples opinions on the Nexus is not my function. Not even a little bit. I wouldn't take the job if it was offered. Too much work for too little reward. Besides, I like a good laugh every now and then. Without pointing anyone out, some of the opinions typed here are hysterical in both senses of the word. I've never had a strike on any forum. As far as I know, I've never had a comment deleted, either. Just don't type anything that a clod of dirt would find ignorant. Easy Peasy.

Edited June 19, 2016 by ManleySteele

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39510315. #39511175, #39511945, #39512040, #39518785, #39531445, #39531585 are all replies on the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Dark0ne, I agree with some of what you said but I must remind you of a couple of things.

1) Console Users did not create this community or enable this site to become what it is today.
2) I am not aware of any contribution Console gaming has provided PC Users other then the dumbing down of game content across the board.
3) There is little chance for revenue to be made by you from console gaming unless you plan on selling us out in the future or that technology drastically changes, which I don't see happening any time soon.

In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists to some extent because we are not just consumers, we contribute. I realize that our contributions are taken for granted by the industry and are only allowed to continue because they see a financial advantage in doing so, but regardless of that you cannot belittle people for wanting to protect this community from vultures who want to rake in as much profit with as little effort as possible.

I would suggest you remember who made your successful site possible and avoid sh!tting where you sleep. In the immortal words of President Obama, You didn't build that by yourself.

boomerizer wrote: MrJoseCuervo:

Nice, coming from someone that stole their name from a tequila brand.

OK so
1) Many PC gamers I'm sure own consoles. Myself included. But you may be partially right. I've only endorsed one thing in the last year.
2) Well, until you invent the console controller that includes 108 keys (not including mouse functions), then "dumbing down" is insanely short sighted, bigoted, and beyond ignorant.
3) Egh, I don't understand the point of that jumble of garbage.

Nobody reserves any right to be elitist in any extent. Not only are you being elitist, but you are being an exlusionist-- as if there are people that SHOULDN'T be allowed to enjoy mods. Simply because of the platform they choose to play on. Console mods have only been available for a month. PC mods have been available for nearly 30 years. I don't want to hear s#*! about console gamers not being contributors. Not everyone that owns a gaming quality PC only owns a PC. I own a PC, a Macbook Pro, an XBox One and a PS4. We also have a 3DS and PSVita (had two of each for a time) At one time we also had a WiiU in the house.

So, for you, I would not recommend shitting on gamers. You know. People that aren't elitist. People that don't choose sides in platforms because each has their advantage.

You know why I have consoles? Because I don't want to have to worry about whether or not my PC can run it. Or having to download multiple third party programs to get something to work.

Y'know, even on PC I play Skyrim and Fallout 4 with an Afterglow wired Xbox One controller. It's not "dumbed down", its streamlined. Dumbed down is what SOE did to Star Wars Galaxies in 2007. Dumbed down is what Ion Storm did to Deus Ex: Invisible War (yes, to make it more accessible to console gamers because CONSOLE GAMING IS A HUGE MARKET).

Whether you like it or not (and I know you don't), but consoles are a huge part of gaming. Video games would not be anywhere near as big as they are today without the Nintento Entertainment System. Which, y'know, was a console. In case you forgot. Mario, video gamings biggest mascot...from a console game. Master Chief, y'know from Halo. Another video game juggernaut... console. You don't have to like it...

But you should learn to respect it.

vram1974 wrote: > In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists

Agreed with everything you wrote.

arenthefox wrote: @MrJoseCuervo: PC gamers who have contributed to the community by creating mods and content can be elitists to a tolerable amount. However, a good part of the group Dark0ne is talking about, the obnoxious elitists, have likely done nothing of the sort, and instead just play games and use mods without giving back, and talk s#*! about console gamers for no other reason than that they don't use the same platform.

Also, just because PC gamers created the modding community, doesn't mean we should shun, exclude, or treat console owners like second-class gamers; they like video games, and they want to use and maybe make some cool mods just like us. They probably play a lot of the same games aside from Bethesda titles, too. Acting like a snob just because you own the platform modding started on does nothing but deepen the divide in the gaming community.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I am not suggesting anything other than protecting what we have built here.

I am not saying we need to shun anyone. All I am saying is that we are the ones making the content, not them. And rolling over and letting the larger forces at play here destroy everything is not something that should be allowed to happen. Change is fine, inclusion is wonderful. Letting a horde of locusts come in and destroy OUR community of content creators and those that support them is not acceptable.

Yes, PC gamers are superior and if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that then there is nothing further to talk about.

jonboy wrote: A couple itsy-bitsy points...

1) No they didn't, but they _could_ expand it, and should not be excluded due to their....handicap :) And who knows, maybe some of them are converted to PC when they see what we can enjoy.

2) It should be noted that profits from console sales allow production budgets to be larger, leading to a (theoretically) better/bigger game.

3) Not sure what you are saying on this one, but if your point is that only PC sales make them money....pretty sure that is not true.

I too feel like an elitist as a PC gamer, especially due to mods. I also don't appreciate the consolitis/bad porting that infects too many games. However I do want to see mods become successful on consoles. It will expand our hobby to a vast audience, which is why it is so painful to see it done so badly by Bethesda.

Takashiro wrote: Wow you kinda missed the point, that type of toxic attitude is not what we need and only servers to make things worse. It's sad how people can feel superior but what piece of plastic they play on,i'm more than sure there are modders who play on console as well so to say they are not a part of this community is false.

But given what you said it would be pointless for me to go on, i honestly don't know how things got this bad but wow it's a bad time to be a part of this "community".

@jonboy - Just to respond to your responses to the OP:

1. Actually, right now, they physically can't contribute to the modding community, so I don't see how they can expand it. In order to make mods, you have to have the tools on PC. It's like a school: the mod authors are the teachers and the mod users are the students. By adding consoles as a modding platform, we've increased the number of students, but the number of teachers has remained the same. It's not a helpful arrangement if you're primarily interested in quality.

And, if you're hoping/betting that more than one or two out of every ten thousand of those console users will be so amazed by mods that they'll rush out and buy a PC so that they too can be mod authors, I wouldn't. If the lack of mods on consoles didn't convince them to take the plunge, suddenly giving them the mods on console won't do it either. Besides, I would imagine most console gamers don't game on PC because consoles are cheaper and easier to use. Modding won't change either of those things.

2. Fair point, but I still agree with the OP that PC gaming has been largely dumbed down since the introduction of consoles. Any benefit in budget they provide, I think, is outweighed by the cost in quality of games. Take Bethesda, for instance - even today, Morrowind is still hailed by many as Bethesda's best game. That's why modding teams keep trying to recreate it (first with Oblivion's engine, then with Skyrim's). Yes, their more modern games appeal to a larger audience and make Bethesda more money, but Oblivion and Skyrim have been steps backwards in many respects, just the same as FO4 has been a large step backward compared to FO3 and insanely backward compared to FO2 (which was made by Black Isle, not Bethesda).

3. Yeah, I don't know what the OP is trying to say here either, but whatever his point was, it's moot. Robin has never been in this for money, so he doesn't care about revenue. He could've sold the Nexus for a small fortune at any time in the last five years if he really wanted to.

[ravernware]

In response to post #39535255.

ManleySteele wrote: I've only been a member here since 2012, so not nearly so long as many of the people here. I don't comment very often on these posts. Most of my comments are on file pages and are limited to telling a particular mod author how much I like their work. When I don't like a mod, I just pass it by without comment. That's the standard here. The standards are not hard to understand or follow. I've been playing games for a long time, on computers for more than 30 years and on consoles almost as long.

A console is a computer. I know some of you don't want to hear that, but it is true. The only substantive difference between a console and a PC is that a console is frozen in time for some arbitrary period. (The length of time a console is frozen is not actually very arbitrary. That's just a rhetorical device. I'm sure you understand the point.) The games have the same shortcoming. Some day, for each game, the time comes that the developer has to claim it is finished and release it. No different than any other piece of software or hardware. How long they continue active support is not arbitrary either. They all must move on to the next project or watch their company go out of business. When a game company, like BSW, supports modding on their titles, they expect a return on their investment and, by and large, they get it in the form of a prolonged shelf life for their titles.

Microsoft, Sony and any other console makers see the advantage of mod support for the titles on their devices and they would be crazy not to do everything in their power to enable mods for consoles. It's just too much money to leave on the table for any reasonable manager. They have been trying to figure it out for a long time. It is the same with paid mods. Paid mods will be back, as soon as they can figure out how to do it. Nothing you can do or say will stop it. You can step away and not participate, but that will only change your experience. It won't do diddley to stop it. It's coming. Wrap your head around that or be bypassed. Those are your only choices. I know that free advice is worth less than you pay for it, but my advice is to stop hating on consollers and consoles. It's a waste of your time, focus and effort.

Having said all that, I wish to state that I agree with Robin's assessment of the situation in every particular. Bethesda has already jumped into the deep end without looking hard enough, twice, recently. Sooner or later they'll figure it all out because they have no other viable option. I'm hoping for sooner. I'm just not spending a lot of expectation on that hope.

Correcting other peoples opinions on the Nexus is not my function. Not even a little bit. I wouldn't take the job if it was offered. Too much work for too little reward. Besides, I like a good laugh every now and then. Without pointing anyone out, some of the opinions typed here are hysterical in both senses of the word. I've never had a strike on any forum. As far as I know, I've never had a comment deleted, either. Just don't type anything that a clod of dirt would find ignorant. Easy Peasy.

Yes.. and yes. Because a console is frozen in time (cannot be upgraded like a PC) the makers have a limited life cycle of profit. The whole point of this discussion is why Zenimax is not fully enforcing anti piracy on it's mod site, Bethesda.net. I do not blame the devs at Bethesda myself. I think the suits at Zenimax want to maximize the console versions life cycle, ergo profitability, via the number of mods converted to console on their site. Am I wrong? I sure hope so.
Sure will be a sad day when modders stop releasing their hard work to those of us who appreciate it, enjoy it, and respect their creative rights. Do we really have to get into who owns what again?
Zenimax needs to wake up and smell the sheetstorm that will come it they don't clean up Bethesda.net and stop the pirating. Nuff said? I think you and I are on the same page here, as are many many others.
So here's something funny. From nisetanaka's page for Dwarven Bikini Armor (id 76214):

It was soo funny I snorted my beer all over me. LOL Edited June 19, 2016 by ravernware