On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[VanScythe]

You, and those with like-minded mentalities, are the reason I love this community so much. It's saddening that the one thing that has brought us all together, is also being misused to tear a line between us.

 

Mod theft isn't like stealing a candy bar from the dollar store. This is an attack on an individual and their intellectual property, not some multi-million dollar corporation who will sue because you used a word from the dictionary in your product.

 

It's a sad day indeed, when a company who so openly supports the modding community doesn't actually care about the modding community. Bethesda, like Microsoft, seems more in it for the monetary gains than the fans and people involved. Whether that is Zenimax's fault, or their own, I don't really know. But I am starting to lose faith in them.

 

I'm glad someone (Dark0ne) is at least trying to do what they can to turn the tide. Even if all we are allowed to do is talk about these issues, sometimes words are more powerful than anything. Hopefully something changes soon. Too many amazing mod authors have retired because people stole from them. I'd hate to see that happen on a wider scale like this, all because a company we thought we could trust on this subject refused to help.

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39561535. #39561945, #39563550 are all replies on the same post.

Tabub2001 wrote: Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

Tantalus010 wrote: It doesn't matter. Bethesda could shut down the Nexus at any time they please with a single letter. All they have to do is make the decision, and I suspect that decision is coming eventually anyway. They clearly want to monetize mods and allowing the Nexus to exist would entirely cut them off from the PC market unless they convince mod authors to only post their mods to Bethesda.net, and we saw how well that went over with the Steam Workshop. Might as well let them know just how badly they f***ed up.

mmaniacBG wrote: The moment they "shut" Nexus is the moment they lose face to any coscious person who has ever downloaded a mod for any of their games!

They are detached, but they are not stupid. I think this site is safe because of that. I can imagine what would happen, if they did it: mods that intentionally break your game, open insults to Bethesda's employees, mods taken down by the authors as an act of protest, low reviews for their games.

Bethesda would love to have monopoly over the mods for their games, but I think it's safe to assume they care about the future sales of their games more.

@mmaniacBG - I half agree with you. I'd certainly add Bethesda to my list of game company boycotts and I imagine many others would as well, but I think you overestimate the impact it would have. Bethesda themselves have stated that we (the modding community) account for only 14% of all Fallout 4 users. According to them, the vast majority plays their games without mods. It would suck to lose us, but with console mods, they stand to make much more money. If paid console mods are a success, I can easily see them at some future time deciding that PC players need to pay for mods, too.

[tohdoh]

In response to post #39561535. #39561945, #39563550, #39563885 are all replies on the same post.

Tabub2001 wrote: Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

Tantalus010 wrote: It doesn't matter. Bethesda could shut down the Nexus at any time they please with a single letter. All they have to do is make the decision, and I suspect that decision is coming eventually anyway. They clearly want to monetize mods and allowing the Nexus to exist would entirely cut them off from the PC market unless they convince mod authors to only post their mods to Bethesda.net, and we saw how well that went over with the Steam Workshop. Might as well let them know just how badly they f***ed up.

mmaniacBG wrote: The moment they "shut" Nexus is the moment they lose face to any coscious person who has ever downloaded a mod for any of their games!

They are detached, but they are not stupid. I think this site is safe because of that. I can imagine what would happen, if they did it: mods that intentionally break your game, open insults to Bethesda's employees, mods taken down by the authors as an act of protest, low reviews for their games.

Bethesda would love to have monopoly over the mods for their games, but I think it's safe to assume they care about the future sales of their games more.

Tantalus010 wrote: @mmaniacBG - I half agree with you. I'd certainly add Bethesda to my list of game company boycotts and I imagine many others would as well, but I think you overestimate the impact it would have. Bethesda themselves have stated that we (the modding community) account for only 14% of all Fallout 4 users. According to them, the vast majority plays their games without mods. It would suck to lose us, but with console mods, they stand to make much more money. If paid console mods are a success, I can easily see them at some future time deciding that PC players need to pay for mods, too.

When the power of your sales are driven by the people (modders, etc) it is absolutely the best thing to use that power to let them know what they're doing wrong.

[Tantalus010]

In response to post #39491315. #39496050, #39497250, #39531815, #39534800, #39535005, #39554390, #39554680, #39556240, #39557575, #39559140 are all replies on the same post.

tvs_frank wrote: I think the simplest solution to this would be to just make your mod rely the SKSE libraries, even something as basic as a texture replacer. There must be a way, right?

qasm0ke wrote: SKSE for Skyrim and F4SE for Fallout 4. This way the developer can focus & care about only for PC. That's the way I think.

I don't have any console so I couldn't test anyway. My Skyrim mods are all require SKSE, so if the so-called 'thief' stole my mod to Bethesda market, he can't play it on non-PC environment.

Darkstorne wrote: That's not a solution though. It's a temporary preventative measure to avoid theft, that prevents ALL console users enjoying a mod because of the arrogance of a very small minority who would resort to theft.

A solution has to come from Bethesda, so that mod authors can feel safe about releasing their content wherever they choose, without fear of theft, because they can trust Bethesda to work as hard as the Nexus staff to do protect their creations.

Consoles on mods could be a wonderful thing. The reason we're all here is because we love modding our Bethesda games on PC, to get a lot more out of them, and I'm really glad console users will be getting a similar experience from now on. Bethesda definitely need to step it up though, and focus on protecting content instead of blatantly focusing on a method of trying to reintroduce paid mods with a 75/25 split in favour of themselves and Valve again...

jonboy wrote: Perhaps some sort of key or other dependency check, one for each platform? Something you tick off in the CK, which embeds this dependency within the file where no one can (easily) change. This version is for PC/XB1/PS4 only or any combination of.

JN273 wrote: And the mod would still work on a console. Even if it requires SKSE or FOSE, you can still download the mod. They're never included in the mod, hence the mod would work because it's just a "fake" requirement.

Tantalus010 wrote: @jonboy - what if the original mod author wants to change it in the future? Even if you have a good answer for that question, a feature like what you're proposing would require a pretty thorough rewrite of how the CK works. By default, the tools implicitly trust the user and grant full read/write access to the esp or esm.

I think requiring script extenders in mods is a good temporary solution until Bethesda gets their s#*! together and fixes Bethesda.net's frankly unprofessional problems.

ThinkerTinker wrote: I definitely think we're on the right track with requiring SKSE or relevant script extender to run a mod. There are shortcomings in using a script extender as such a validation check - but this is how brainstorming and real problem solving works. Someone comes up with a good idea and people see why its a good idea at the root. In my opinion, I think its a good idea because it involves the use of an external tool that can be checked upon.

So maybe SKSE isn't the exact long-term solution - maybe we create another external tool explicitly for the use of compatibility checking for a PC version of a mod (or lack thereof, for a console I guess?) But I think we're on the right track - use the benefits and uniqueness of the platform (in this case, PC) in order to hard-code compatibility and ensure against piracy. These are ideas we can build from and that's what makes this community so successful. Putting down ideas, or not trying to be open-minded about suggestions for solutions is sort of toxic and I hate to see this community resort to that language.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: This would also benefit Bethesda because Pirated versions of their games do not support FASE or SKSE.

ToxicInfinity wrote: I don't create mods, so maybe this seems like a stupid question. I think this is a great temporary solution, however, couldn't someone planning on stealing mods teach themselves enough code to simply remove the requirement of F4SE before reuploading it?

If a mod doesn't in any way actually need the F4SE, but instead requires it with a "fake" requirement where it won't work without it but doesn't actually need it, couldn't someone download the mod, remove the requirement, and it then works?

I'm thinking along the lines of content mods, such as gun mods. I haven't noticed if many or even any of the gun mods require F4SE, meaning they don't need it to be created. But say a mod author makes a gun mod and makes it require F4SE in an attempt to stop the stealing. Then, someone could download it, change the mod to work like most gun mods do now and remove the F4SE requirement and re-upload it to Bethesda.net, the protection has failed. Maybe this isn't as easy as I think it is since I have no coding or mod creation experience, but I thought it might be worth considering this issue if it is fairly easy.

ThinkerTinker wrote: @Toxic, you're right in that removing the script extender dependency by a pirate is an option in some cases. There are a couple scenarios I could see that would prevent this being an issue:

1) The more long-term method: create some other kind of external application that these mods tap into outside of a "script extender." This sort of application is beyond my scope of understanding; I'm not an expert with DirectX games or writing software any more complicated than simple C++ Console applications and C# Windows Forms but I think if there's a will, people will find a way to make it happen.

2) A more immediate method: changing the dependency on a script extender requires access to the source code. The files that the game reads (any scripts your mod includes) are compiled files - i.e. they can't just be opened up and modified. Source files are required to edit script dependencies et cetera. So in order for a pirate to change the dependency the pirate would have to have access to the source code, know how to code, and have the tools necessary to recompile the source code after being altered. Setting up that whole configuration is...not just a 30 minute job.

Now, in the case of requiring dependencies or compatibility checks when all your mod does is include some loose files for overwriting a couple game textures with custom made ones of your own, I'm not sure how a script extender could be used in preventing this, but again, I think if the community thinks about it enough a solution will present itself.

TheCheeseCakeGuy wrote: The scrip extender doesn't always work, which would 'cause a s#*! ton of issues.

@Toxic and Tinker - It is possible that a pirate could remove the dependency, but I don't see that happening often. They'd have to know both Papyrus and which functions are unique to the script extenders to do it. Papyrus is easy to learn in a few hours if you're smart and have had some prior coding experience, but it still takes a few hours, and then you have to research the script extenders on top of that. There are no flags in the editor that tell you which functions are native and which are part of a script extender (at least, there weren't with Oblivion and OBSE). The pirate won't know just by looking at the script what functions require the SE. If they just remove the script entirely, the game will crash when the esp calls a script that doesn't exist.

[ravernware]

In response to post #39561535. #39561945, #39563550, #39563885, #39563970 are all replies on the same post.

Tabub2001 wrote: Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

Tantalus010 wrote: It doesn't matter. Bethesda could shut down the Nexus at any time they please with a single letter. All they have to do is make the decision, and I suspect that decision is coming eventually anyway. They clearly want to monetize mods and allowing the Nexus to exist would entirely cut them off from the PC market unless they convince mod authors to only post their mods to Bethesda.net, and we saw how well that went over with the Steam Workshop. Might as well let them know just how badly they f***ed up.

mmaniacBG wrote: The moment they "shut" Nexus is the moment they lose face to any coscious person who has ever downloaded a mod for any of their games!

They are detached, but they are not stupid. I think this site is safe because of that. I can imagine what would happen, if they did it: mods that intentionally break your game, open insults to Bethesda's employees, mods taken down by the authors as an act of protest, low reviews for their games.

Bethesda would love to have monopoly over the mods for their games, but I think it's safe to assume they care about the future sales of their games more.

Tantalus010 wrote: @mmaniacBG - I half agree with you. I'd certainly add Bethesda to my list of game company boycotts and I imagine many others would as well, but I think you overestimate the impact it would have. Bethesda themselves have stated that we (the modding community) account for only 14% of all Fallout 4 users. According to them, the vast majority plays their games without mods. It would suck to lose us, but with console mods, they stand to make much more money. If paid console mods are a success, I can easily see them at some future time deciding that PC players need to pay for mods, too.

tohdoh wrote: When the power of your sales are driven by the people (modders, etc) it is absolutely the best thing to use that power to let them know what they're doing wrong.

I think the Nexus will be fine
1. Bethesda/Zenimax agrees that modders own their content and Bethesda/zenimax only has a distribution license if, and only if, the CK was used in creating the mod. There are a ton of mods that did not use the ck, ergo Bethesda/zenimax has no rights at all over those.
That is a huge point btw.
2. Bethesda/zenimax need the Nexus more than we need Bethesda.net or steam workshop. Fact.

Now.. will Bethesda.net be fine? That is the ultimate question.

[VanScythe]

In response to post #39562410.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

 

 

 

Let me see if I can take a shot at this one.

 

I am an artist. I love to paint and draw but it is a hobby not a career. I just like when people like them. So I paint a lovely scene of a church and country lane. I make them into a bunch of small prints and give them out on the street to whomever would like them. My name is at the bottom as all artist typically are. People are happy. I am happy. So I pack up my things and go home.

 

A few weeks later I walk by an art gallery and there is my print, I did not give the print to the gallery. I go in to talk to the gallery owner and they kinda brush me off even though I have proof the work is mine. I walk out upset and there is a large group of people pointing at the work and they look mad. One person yells, "That is the one that painted the cards like the picture! Get her!!" I then run for my life...possibly regretting having shared something I loved with others.

 

I now see the print everywhere. And most people no longer know I painted it. It is being used in all kinds of places I did not intend and I am not given credit for it.

 

So this is how I see the mod theft thing.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else.

Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion.

 

First part, no it isn't like a base for others to use. Many times a mod is a single, enclosed creative work. It isn't a connect-the-dots they give someone.

 

And it is great you don't care. You make something and share it then are ok with others doing whatever (and many mods are like this) then superior attitude. But your single opinion can not over-ride the hundreds of mod authors that do not feel the same. That expect they can share what they want, where they want and have it used in the way they intended. You may think this is shallow or naive or even an attitude of asshattery. Nonetheless there is not a single thing saying they can not do as they please with their mods and that the mods are, copyrighted to the mod author as soon as it breathes life on a medium it may be demonstrated.

 

It's similar. It's still an act of redistributing something without permission.
Also, my "single opinion" is not meant to over-ride anyone else's. It's called having a discussion and bringing light to sides some may not have thought about.

 

Unfortunately this isn't a new issue to the modding community. Now it just happens to involve Beth's official site. :(

This is precisely the reason I refuse to post my artwork and designs, poetry or stories online. I stopped selling them and giving them away as gifts.

Years ago, I made a piece for a friend for her birthday. It was special and specific to her. She loved Batman, so I made her nickname into the shape of the Batman symbol (took me hours to get it the way I wanted), and I gave it to her. Then a few months ago, I see her ex-boyfriend (they were together when I made the design) post a picture of it getting tattooed on himself, claiming he had made it. He took credit for making something that he did not, then had it permanently etched into him when it was not even intended for him in the first place.

He stole not only from myself, but also the person I had specifically made it for. This isn't the first time something like that has happened. Just Google the movie "Zombie Christ". That movie is loosely based on a song of the same name that I had written back in the late 90's early 2000's. But there isn't anything I can do about it, and you'll not see a record of my song having ever existed before the movie's release.

Intellectual property doesn't mean anything to anyone unless you have the corporate and legal power to protect it. My art and my writing are never seen by anyone but myself because of people like this. They are obviously good enough to use in Hollywood movies and tattoos. Just not good enough to respect my rights as their creator.

I feel your pain, and am sorry that has happened to you.

[Qrygg]

@Dark0ne, glad you've addressed this issue. I'd like to just add my voice here as someone who stands by you and the modding community at large in preventing mod theft and the eventual legal pressure Bethesda/Zenimax will be applying to the Nexus. United We Stand!

[ravernware]

In response to post #39562410. #39564620 is also a reply to the same post.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

 

 

 

Let me see if I can take a shot at this one.

 

I am an artist. I love to paint and draw but it is a hobby not a career. I just like when people like them. So I paint a lovely scene of a church and country lane. I make them into a bunch of small prints and give them out on the street to whomever would like them. My name is at the bottom as all artist typically are. People are happy. I am happy. So I pack up my things and go home.

 

A few weeks later I walk by an art gallery and there is my print, I did not give the print to the gallery. I go in to talk to the gallery owner and they kinda brush me off even though I have proof the work is mine. I walk out upset and there is a large group of people pointing at the work and they look mad. One person yells, "That is the one that painted the cards like the picture! Get her!!" I then run for my life...possibly regretting having shared something I loved with others.

 

I now see the print everywhere. And most people no longer know I painted it. It is being used in all kinds of places I did not intend and I am not given credit for it.

 

So this is how I see the mod theft thing.

Not really entirely the same thing here. What is going on here would be more like drawing a base for people to use to draw their own characters, but then having that person upload that base somewhere else.

Personally, I don't care ... that type of thing doesn't bother me because I feel it's hypocritical to care about such a thing, but then repost other art from companies and such and also drawing their characters. As long as no one is claiming it as their own nor are the some how misrepresenting my work, it's all good in my opinion.

 

First part, no it isn't like a base for others to use. Many times a mod is a single, enclosed creative work. It isn't a connect-the-dots they give someone.

 

And it is great you don't care. You make something and share it then are ok with others doing whatever (and many mods are like this) then superior attitude. But your single opinion can not over-ride the hundreds of mod authors that do not feel the same. That expect they can share what they want, where they want and have it used in the way they intended. You may think this is shallow or naive or even an attitude of asshattery. Nonetheless there is not a single thing saying they can not do as they please with their mods and that the mods are, copyrighted to the mod author as soon as it breathes life on a medium it may be demonstrated.

 

It's similar. It's still an act of redistributing something without permission.
Also, my "single opinion" is not meant to over-ride anyone else's. It's called having a discussion and bringing light to sides some may not have thought about.

 

Unfortunately this isn't a new issue to the modding community. Now it just happens to involve Beth's official site. :(

VanScythe wrote: This is precisely the reason I refuse to post my artwork and designs, poetry or stories online. I stopped selling them and giving them away as gifts.

Years ago, I made a piece for a friend for her birthday. It was special and specific to her. She loved Batman, so I made her nickname into the shape of the Batman symbol (took me hours to get it the way I wanted), and I gave it to her. Then a few months ago, I see her ex-boyfriend (they were together when I made the design) post a picture of it getting tattooed on himself, claiming he had made it. He took credit for making something that he did not, then had it permanently etched into him when it was not even intended for him in the first place.

He stole not only from myself, but also the person I had specifically made it for. This isn't the first time something like that has happened. Just Google the movie "Zombie Christ". That movie is loosely based on a song of the same name that I had written back in the late 90's early 2000's. But there isn't anything I can do about it, and you'll not see a record of my song having ever existed before the movie's release.

Intellectual property doesn't mean anything to anyone unless you have the corporate and legal power to protect it. My art and my writing are never seen by anyone but myself because of people like this. They are obviously good enough to use in Hollywood movies and tattoos. Just not good enough to respect my rights as their creator.

I feel your pain, and am sorry that has happened to you.

damn.. that is so sad, and sick what happened to you. Most of us are just so naïve. The others are just immature trolls I guess. You have my sympathy and my respect.

[pokenar]

In response to post #39561535. #39561945, #39563550, #39563885, #39563970, #39564565 are all replies on the same post.

Tabub2001 wrote: Are you sure lashing out at them on your site is the best thing to do right now...?

Tantalus010 wrote: It doesn't matter. Bethesda could shut down the Nexus at any time they please with a single letter. All they have to do is make the decision, and I suspect that decision is coming eventually anyway. They clearly want to monetize mods and allowing the Nexus to exist would entirely cut them off from the PC market unless they convince mod authors to only post their mods to Bethesda.net, and we saw how well that went over with the Steam Workshop. Might as well let them know just how badly they f***ed up.

mmaniacBG wrote: The moment they "shut" Nexus is the moment they lose face to any coscious person who has ever downloaded a mod for any of their games!

They are detached, but they are not stupid. I think this site is safe because of that. I can imagine what would happen, if they did it: mods that intentionally break your game, open insults to Bethesda's employees, mods taken down by the authors as an act of protest, low reviews for their games.

Bethesda would love to have monopoly over the mods for their games, but I think it's safe to assume they care about the future sales of their games more.

Tantalus010 wrote: @mmaniacBG - I half agree with you. I'd certainly add Bethesda to my list of game company boycotts and I imagine many others would as well, but I think you overestimate the impact it would have. Bethesda themselves have stated that we (the modding community) account for only 14% of all Fallout 4 users. According to them, the vast majority plays their games without mods. It would suck to lose us, but with console mods, they stand to make much more money. If paid console mods are a success, I can easily see them at some future time deciding that PC players need to pay for mods, too.

tohdoh wrote: When the power of your sales are driven by the people (modders, etc) it is absolutely the best thing to use that power to let them know what they're doing wrong.

ravernware wrote: I think the Nexus will be fine
1. Bethesda/Zenimax agrees that modders own their content and Bethesda/zenimax only has a distribution license if, and only if, the CK was used in creating the mod. There are a ton of mods that did not use the ck, ergo Bethesda/zenimax has no rights at all over those.
That is a huge point btw.
2. Bethesda/zenimax need the Nexus more than we need Bethesda.net or steam workshop. Fact.

Now.. will Bethesda.net be fine? That is the ultimate question.

I'd further like to point out that Bethesda obviously knows they'd be skinned alive for touching this site, otherwise they would have just sent a C&D over the Far Harbor leak instead of only sending an email.

[MrJoseCuervo]

What it comes down to is YOU don't matter. Only corporations matter. Post something here belonging to a corporation you will get banned. If a Corporation enables others to steal from you nothing will happen. Only they matter. only their profits matter. F you, you modding scum!

 

You don't matter, what you make does not matter, your opinion does not matter. Know your place worm and live like the serf you are, and by the way please buy our games, thanks.

 

-Sincerely Bethesda