On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[SixT4]

Welp, I guess I better throw any hopes of making my own mods from scratch out the window and onto the concrete. All I need as incentive to create is knowing I'd be doing something good for people- I don't need some bundle of "rights" and a draconian legal regime enforcing them. It's a shame to see a modding community support the same system that empowers game companies to step all over mod authors, and makes innocent things like fan art a criminal offense with fines over $100,000.

 

Loving what I did is how I started to draw, and how I started my journey to become a computer programmer- and seeing how so many people doing those two things are so obsessed with copyright rather than doing good, I'm starting to be driven away.

[DOPR5]

I browse the Nexus, literally, every day to see what new mods have been posted for my favorite games.

Becoming a premium member is quite accurately an insignificant gesture compared to how much I use and appreciate the existence and maintenance of this website.

 

I have been modding Bethesda games since Oblivion (although I post very little of what I create), and I have relied on The Nexus as my primary - indeed, my sole source - for Bethesda mods in that time.

It's vividly apparent how much time, effort, tears and sweat go into these sites, and it really is the least I can do to express my gratitude to you and all your staff for dedicating yourselves toward keeping Nexus so accessible and friendly to the masses of users that come here every day.

Thank you so much for that.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775 are all replies on the same post.

bigdeano89 wrote: Sigh, the ignorant comments coming from some folks here is unbelieveable, to the point that I think you must either be children or trolls to have this mindset. Most of these people even admit to "not reading the whole article" but somehow their insight has to be more valuable than the damn article you are commenting on.

Heres the gist, shrunk down into a smaller size so you can understand. Mod authors DO own their mods, Bethesda and Zenimax own the LICENSE to it (and thats ONLY if made with the creation kit. If they make them by any other means, Zenimax dont own anything). That license does NOT extend to users. That does NOT give anyone the right to take and upload the mods without permission from the authors, END.OF.STORY.

No more of this BS "I own the game, I can do what I want", no, you cant, and you are childish or a troll if you believe thats true.

Brabbit1987 wrote: I am of the argument that, while I don't agree with mods being stolen, I think it's better to make it less of a big deal, because it's only making the situation worse.

Remember what the music industry did back when piracy was rather new? There are always going to be people who do not respect your wishes. Also, in many cases, it's not even someone who is trying to be disrespectful, it's just someone who enjoys your content and wants to share it with others.

Now, you can do what the music industry did and try your best to prevent piracy. Or you can accept that there is very little you can do to stop it entirely and it's probably best to just embrace it and work along with it, rather than against it. If this trend continues with mods on consoles, you can be sure .. eventually we will come to a point where trying to stop your mod from being uploaded will just be impossible unless you don't mind spending most of your time doing take downs.

Again, it's not that I agree with people stealing mods, I just think it's going to come to a point where .. it will be too much work to try and prevent it.

boomerizer wrote: And in my case, I feel the same way Brabbit. Although, it's more because its digital media. Once you upload it to the internet, you sort of lose ownership. You know, its not like you're actually losing anything. And the 'thief' really isn't gaining anything. In fact the only people that benefit from this, are the people that download the mods to their game.

My god, what a travesty! Oh, what a world where people are actually enjoying something on a platform that isn't a PC! *gasp*

Like I've said, repeatedly, if the thief is actually trying to claim ownership (or worse, trying to encourage donation or payment of some sort), yeah, I'd have a problem too. But if its a direct copy/paste upload? C'mon, what the flip are you really losing out on?

BuffHamster wrote: @boomerizer: Apathy, ... awesome. I have some Insurance policies I can sell to you, oh and this bridge I found somewhere near Brooklyn NY.
Accept it, "Buyer Beware" and all that.
You bought a shoddy used car with no warranty? Too bad, accept it.
Oh my, you purchased some food items that have been recalled due to Salmonella contamination? Ah well, you still have that Insurance policy I sold you? Never mind, food poisoning is not covered.
Imitation brand electronics burned your house down? Ah, too bad, that's not covered. Accept it, no, ... embrace it.

My take? Mod Authors have the legal right to be advocates for themselves and the legal right to petition their grievances as loudly as possible, ... accept it.

doomy19 wrote: @Brabbit1987 You're right, it will be too much work to try and prevent it, so the mod authors will do the most simple thing they can, which is to stop making mods because the enjoyment of doing so has been eclipsed by the problems involved. And who benefits from that? Nobody. This is the reality that the community members here understand and the new console people and Bethesda don't, that there is no way to win if everyone isn't respecting the ones creating the content.

boomerizer wrote: Wrong Again. Because now you're bringing money into it. Now I'm at a loss. Because so far, everyone arguing against this mod theft like its genuine piracy, keeps using analogies that bring in money. Currency.

There is no currency in the modding community beyond ego. Beyond namesake.

And if it isn't that, then it's anti-console types. Neither of which are valid, in my opinion.

One is ego stroking, the other is elitism. Both are insanely selfish, which defeats the purpose of the sharing of your mods.

Sharing.

Huh.

Maybe somebody forgot the definition of sharing.

I mean, if you don't want to spread the love, maybe you shouldn't mod. Sounds like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Looking for some glory? Maybe hoping you make such a great mod that Bethesda (or whoevers game you're modding) hires you?

If I made mods, I'd be flattered if it were being redistributed. That meant I did a good thing. That'd mean that people liked what I made.

And, as I've said before, and something that people seem to be forgetting, or not paying attention to:

If the person redistributing it were claiming it as their own, outright-- not just failing to credit, but saying it is THEIRS and THEIRS alone, yeah, I WOULD have a problem. But the fact of the matter is that most "stolen" mods out there, are merely redistributed, without credit or permission.

And I'm sorry, but that is not nefarious. That's not genuine theft. That is not worth the fuss that everyone here is making it out to be. That is simply redistribution. Nobody is losing out on credit/recognition. Nobody is losing money. Nobody is gaining money.

So please, tell me again. Whats the f*#@ing problem?

@doomy19
If that is all their mods are worth to them, than that is on them. They can stop developing mods if they so wish. You know, some people may care at first, but everything moves on and people will simply forget.

Worrying about a mod you made, which you released entirely free, being uploaded in a place where people can download it entirely for free .. is just stressful. It's easier to really not care. It's not exactly the biggest deal in the world.

I am not new to theft either. I am an artist and a game developer, started off a long time ago as a mod developer myself.

It was something I enjoyed, and I expect the same to be true of current mod developers. Anyone can take your mod and upload it anywhere, and there is very little you can do to stop it. So why stress about it at all?

If you are worried about giving support, than just make it clear you only give support for those who get their copy from an official source. If you have a problem with my mod, and you got it from a place I did not upload it, then tough, no support for you.

There are ways to deal with these things without making yourself stressed out.

[Vagrant0]

So please, tell me again. Whats the f***ing problem?

 

 

The problem, simply, is that ONLY the author of a mod is qualified to decide if it is safe to use on console or decide if they want to offer support for that mod on console. There are dozens of threads popping up on reddit warning console users against certain mods (which were uploaded to bethesda.net without consent) which are corrupting saves or causing other harm. Unfortunately, given the lackluster systems, they blame the original mod author for these problems and have been flaming the author for uploading a "broken" product, some of these flames even making its way back to this site. This makes the mod author look bad, causes harm to those users of the mod, and leads to significantly more problems for EVERYONE involved... All because someone decided that they wanted to upload a mod for console users.

 

This is the situation as it exists. There is evidence of this happening. Beyond all the usual arguments of copyright and providing credit, this one issue remains and serves to cause harm to both mod authors and mod users regardless of what platform those mods appear.

[boomerizer]

In response to post #39515150.

Vagrant0 wrote:

So please, tell me again. Whats the f***ing problem?

 

 

The problem, simply, is that ONLY the author of a mod is qualified to decide if it is safe to use on console or decide if they want to offer support for that mod on console. There are dozens of threads popping up on reddit warning console users against certain mods (which were uploaded to bethesda.net without consent) which are corrupting saves or causing other harm. Unfortunately, given the lackluster systems, they blame the original mod author for these problems and have been flaming the author for uploading a "broken" product, some of these flames even making its way back to this site. This makes the mod author look bad, causes harm to those users of the mod, and leads to significantly more problems for EVERYONE involved... All because someone decided that they wanted to upload a mod for console users.

 

This is the situation as it exists. There is evidence of this happening. Beyond all the usual arguments of copyright and providing credit, this one issue remains and serves to cause harm to both mod authors and mod users regardless of what platform those mods appear.

Well, I mean, thats a risk of mods. I've had to reinstall Skyrim several times on PC because of the complicated ENB installation process. Or because dirty mods that I couldn't be bothered to clean up with TES5edit. I've spent days trying to get certain mods to work on PC.

This is merely growing pains for console mods. So far, I've had a smooth experience downloading mods, though I have no way to say if any mods I currently use are stolen.

[Vagrant0]

 

In response to post #39515150.

 

 

 

Vagrant0 wrote:

So please, tell me again. Whats the f***ing problem?

The problem, simply, is that ONLY the author of a mod is qualified to decide if it is safe to use on console or decide if they want to offer support for that mod on console. There are dozens of threads popping up on reddit warning console users against certain mods (which were uploaded to bethesda.net without consent) which are corrupting saves or causing other harm. Unfortunately, given the lackluster systems, they blame the original mod author for these problems and have been flaming the author for uploading a "broken" product, some of these flames even making its way back to this site. This makes the mod author look bad, causes harm to those users of the mod, and leads to significantly more problems for EVERYONE involved... All because someone decided that they wanted to upload a mod for console users.

This is the situation as it exists. There is evidence of this happening. Beyond all the usual arguments of copyright and providing credit, this one issue remains and serves to cause harm to both mod authors and mod users regardless of what platform those mods appear.

Well, I mean, thats a risk of mods. I've had to reinstall Skyrim several times on PC because of the complicated ENB installation process. Or because dirty mods that I couldn't be bothered to clean up with TES5edit. I've spent days trying to get certain mods to work on PC.

 

This is merely growing pains for console mods. So far, I've had a smooth experience downloading mods, though I have no way to say if any mods I currently use are stolen.

 

It is a risk of mods, but people who go around uploading other peoples mods are not able to answer the sorts of questions which alleviate these risks, and in most cases are providing no support. Which leads to them just passing the responsibility to the original author who never had any intention of trying to provide support for a platform that they cannot test and troubleshoot on. Since there is a lack of support, these people pass blame anywhere they can, and create outrage and spread misinformation. That is the problem.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #39515150. #39515405 is also a reply to the same post.

Vagrant0 wrote:

So please, tell me again. Whats the f***ing problem?

 

 

The problem, simply, is that ONLY the author of a mod is qualified to decide if it is safe to use on console or decide if they want to offer support for that mod on console. There are dozens of threads popping up on reddit warning console users against certain mods (which were uploaded to bethesda.net without consent) which are corrupting saves or causing other harm. Unfortunately, given the lackluster systems, they blame the original mod author for these problems and have been flaming the author for uploading a "broken" product, some of these flames even making its way back to this site. This makes the mod author look bad, causes harm to those users of the mod, and leads to significantly more problems for EVERYONE involved... All because someone decided that they wanted to upload a mod for console users.

 

This is the situation as it exists. There is evidence of this happening. Beyond all the usual arguments of copyright and providing credit, this one issue remains and serves to cause harm to both mod authors and mod users regardless of what platform those mods appear.

boomerizer wrote: Well, I mean, thats a risk of mods. I've had to reinstall Skyrim several times on PC because of the complicated ENB installation process. Or because dirty mods that I couldn't be bothered to clean up with TES5edit. I've spent days trying to get certain mods to work on PC.

This is merely growing pains for console mods. So far, I've had a smooth experience downloading mods, though I have no way to say if any mods I currently use are stolen.

It's a problem that exists, yes ... but it's a problem that is going to continue to exist. Everyone is just stressing themselves out more than they should be.

If people are coming here complaining about mods breaking their game, then they have much to learn. This is going to happen even if the mod author uploads it themselves.

[doomy19]

In response to post #39514525. #39514985, #39515670 are all replies on the same post.

SixT4 wrote: Welp, I guess I better throw any hopes of making my own mods from scratch out the window and onto the concrete. All I need as incentive to create is knowing I'd be doing something good for people- I don't need some bundle of "rights" and a draconian legal regime enforcing them. It's a shame to see a modding community support the same system that empowers game companies to step all over mod authors, and makes innocent things like fan art a criminal offense with fines over $100,000.

Loving what I did is how I started to draw, and how I started my journey to become a computer programmer- and seeing how so many people doing those two things are so obsessed with copyright rather than doing good, I'm starting to be driven away.

boomerizer wrote: Finally, someone here with a line of genuine human logic.

SixT4 wrote: I was just gonna thank you for your other post, boomerizer. :U People are bringing money into this, when many mod authors aren't asking money to download their mods. If I wasn't a broke college student, I'd definitely pitch in some money to say thanks and show I care. Also, I'd agree with what you said about redistribution; I've had a few of my drawings redistributed a while ago, and it hasn't bothered me any- they gave me credit. ;P If someone was trying to claim it, sure- I'd be mad. When it comes to software-related things like game mods, I can see a few reasons why some mod authors wouldn't want their work tinkered with- people could add viruses, screw it up and make the original author look bad, etc. I can also understand some restrictions on redistribution for support issues; I've seen plenty of people elsewhere asking for support for a really outdated version of something; it looks stressful. XP But rather than forbidding distribution and modification, why not just allow them within a set of rules? I'm actually curious on why people don't just make rules instead of forbidding something outright...

@sixT4 Imagine you had just created a beautifully crafted new outfit for fallout 4, and upload it expecting (justly im sure), that all of those downloading it are going to love it. Now imagine that the outfit, which is very unique and original and is tied to your name and reputation as a modder, gets pulled from the nexus by some smartass who then proceeds to open 3dsmax and adds a big nazi swastika to your original and unique outfit, or cuts off the bottom of the outfit and makes it a skirt, or makes a super skimpy version of your outfit and reuploads it to other sites under your name. Im sure you would be just fine with all of this happening right?

[Vagrant0]

 

In response to post #39515150. #39515405 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

Vagrant0 wrote:

So please, tell me again. Whats the f***ing problem?

The problem, simply, is that ONLY the author of a mod is qualified to decide if it is safe to use on console or decide if they want to offer support for that mod on console. There are dozens of threads popping up on reddit warning console users against certain mods (which were uploaded to bethesda.net without consent) which are corrupting saves or causing other harm. Unfortunately, given the lackluster systems, they blame the original mod author for these problems and have been flaming the author for uploading a "broken" product, some of these flames even making its way back to this site. This makes the mod author look bad, causes harm to those users of the mod, and leads to significantly more problems for EVERYONE involved... All because someone decided that they wanted to upload a mod for console users.

This is the situation as it exists. There is evidence of this happening. Beyond all the usual arguments of copyright and providing credit, this one issue remains and serves to cause harm to both mod authors and mod users regardless of what platform those mods appear.

boomerizer wrote: Well, I mean, thats a risk of mods. I've had to reinstall Skyrim several times on PC because of the complicated ENB installation process. Or because dirty mods that I couldn't be bothered to clean up with TES5edit. I've spent days trying to get certain mods to work on PC.

 

This is merely growing pains for console mods. So far, I've had a smooth experience downloading mods, though I have no way to say if any mods I currently use are stolen.

It's a problem that exists, yes ... but it's a problem that is going to continue to exist. Everyone is just stressing themselves out more than they should be.

 

If people are coming here complaining about mods breaking their game, then they have much to learn. This is going to happen even if the mod author uploads it themselves.

 

But if the mod is uploaded by the author, then they are in contact with someone who understands what their mod does and which can provide that information. Any issues which are popping up are being reported to someone who is able to then make appropriate fixes or adjustments to solve those issues. Rather than these issues being reported to a 3rd party who has no understanding how mods work, has no line of communication with the author to discuss the issues, and has no responsibility to care beyond their own ego for having uploaded a popular mod.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #39514525. #39514985, #39515670, #39515755 are all replies on the same post.

SixT4 wrote: Welp, I guess I better throw any hopes of making my own mods from scratch out the window and onto the concrete. All I need as incentive to create is knowing I'd be doing something good for people- I don't need some bundle of "rights" and a draconian legal regime enforcing them. It's a shame to see a modding community support the same system that empowers game companies to step all over mod authors, and makes innocent things like fan art a criminal offense with fines over $100,000.

Loving what I did is how I started to draw, and how I started my journey to become a computer programmer- and seeing how so many people doing those two things are so obsessed with copyright rather than doing good, I'm starting to be driven away.

boomerizer wrote: Finally, someone here with a line of genuine human logic.

SixT4 wrote: I was just gonna thank you for your other post, boomerizer. :U People are bringing money into this, when many mod authors aren't asking money to download their mods. If I wasn't a broke college student, I'd definitely pitch in some money to say thanks and show I care. Also, I'd agree with what you said about redistribution; I've had a few of my drawings redistributed a while ago, and it hasn't bothered me any- they gave me credit. ;P If someone was trying to claim it, sure- I'd be mad. When it comes to software-related things like game mods, I can see a few reasons why some mod authors wouldn't want their work tinkered with- people could add viruses, screw it up and make the original author look bad, etc. I can also understand some restrictions on redistribution for support issues; I've seen plenty of people elsewhere asking for support for a really outdated version of something; it looks stressful. XP But rather than forbidding distribution and modification, why not just allow them within a set of rules? I'm actually curious on why people don't just make rules instead of forbidding something outright...

doomy19 wrote: @sixT4 Imagine you had just created a beautifully crafted new outfit for fallout 4, and upload it expecting (justly im sure), that all of those downloading it are going to love it. Now imagine that the outfit, which is very unique and original and is tied to your name and reputation as a modder, gets pulled from the nexus by some smartass who then proceeds to open 3dsmax and adds a big nazi swastika to your original and unique outfit, or cuts off the bottom of the outfit and makes it a skirt, or makes a super skimpy version of your outfit and reuploads it to other sites under your name. Im sure you would be just fine with all of this happening right?

@doomy19

XD Nothing like that as far as I am aware is happening. So your point is ... pointless.

However, to answer such a question, I would be mad if that happened of course. It's an entirely different situation than this.