On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[FalloutVeteran2009]

I also think that everything will be just fine an dandy. We just have to wait for people to grow up a little.

[HermanMODSTER]

In response to post #39607820.

FalloutVeteran2009 wrote:

I also think that everything will be just fine an dandy. We just have to wait for people to grow up a little.

Kids... Kids never change

[DrakeTheDragon]

In response to post #39605705.

MrGrendel wrote: I wonder what would happen if multiple copies of all the popular mods started turning up there, but it so happens that most of them eventually develop save game failure and the like.

Last time I checked the authors the mods were stolen from were telling exactly that about the versions that were stolen. This is exactly what is happening right now with like every single pirated mod on Bethesda.net, the pirates just didn't tell anybody, or more likely are just as clueless themselves for they didn't ask after all.

Just read the comments on most of the currently still not yet removed ones, if you need any further proof. And please keep in mind, the corruptions will sometimes take their time to unfold, so if there's comments with no reports yet, rest assured they will soon come. Edited June 21, 2016 by DrakeTheDragon

[Dodsa]

"Indeed, everything about the Bethesda.net launch has stunk of “release now, fix later”."

 

Beth in a nutshell, just remove the "fix later" part

[TheVampireDante]

 

Plus, that was written about a year ago. That is ancient in internet time.

 

- and yet you still see some people stating they are against it. Author and user alike.

[RealmEleven]

In response to post #39533645. #39575050, #39575985, #39577845 are all replies on the same post.

jet4571 wrote: Different topic so new post...

"End time-out, resume play." About just above that.

I am against consoles in general. Not the users, they are just someone who enjoys games. I am against consoles themselves because they are holding back game technology and in a sense computer hardware across the board as well. Last gen consoles lasted what 10 years? 10 years of the same outdated when first released hardware? Back in the 90's PC gaming pushed hardware makers to make faster more powerful hardware and the advances were fast paced and meaningful to keep up with new games. Even Intel was advertising and upgrading because of games. Running the latest game the fastest was a selling point even if it was for an office typewriter replacement. Then comes cross platform games and all that came to a slow crawl. No more was a PC game pushing the PC to it's limits and had so much more to show if the PC was better. Today even the minimum specs are not correct.

I have an I7 920 and a GTX 750TI and can run vanilla FO4 at ultra settings even without the shadow problem Gopher was having on his much better hardware(I so wanted to tease him too). If November 2016 was 1997 instead and I had the same aged hardware and FO4 was just released with specs similar to any game of the era I wouldn't even be able to see the main menu. Yet I can play on ultra settings today? That is because of the last generation of consoles and now the current generation being outdated hardware before they are released. Consoles have held back advances in gaming and in hardware by 10 or more years. That's not the console users fault, it is Microsoft and Sony's fault.

ManleySteele wrote: Designing and producing a more capable console is a trivial challenge if we're just discussing the engineering aspects of the exercise. The problems don't appear until you start trying to sell them for a profit. Never forget that all these business entities are for profit businesses. They have to sell seats to stay in business. The game developers have the same problem. They have to sell to the predominate seats first and to everyone else afterwards. That everyone else is us.

It's easy to forget that the only hardware on sale that is dedicated to gaming first are the consoles. Everything else is designed for some other problem domain. Lucky for us, they're also good for gaming. A console that would push games they way we want them pushed would have to be priced between $1000 and $2000. You couldn't sell enough to stay in business.

Tahnval wrote: My issue with consoles is that they dominate game development and always for the worse. Simplified everything and badly implemented and heavily limited controls are the norm now and that bothers me more than graphics designed for outdated and cut-down hardware and PC ports that are not just unoptimised but actually counter-optimised as a result of being designed for consoles.

It won't change, though, because developing for a console is inherently much easier and therefore much cheaper because you're developing for one set of hardware running one set of software. A PS4 is a PS4. Pick 10,000 PCs and you are very unlikely to find any 2 the same in all relevant ways. Then you have to make the game scale to at least some extent across hardware with wildly different capabilities, which at the very least means adding the ability to change lots of options. You have to add the ability to use various input devices and to rebind controls. Much easier to develop for console and then make a console game work to a degree on PC and rely on the power of a PC to brute force through the inefficiencies. Or not bother at all. Consoles will be a bigger market because they're cheaper to buy and simpler to use, which is what people usually want with most things.

Which is why it's not consoles holding back hardware development. It's the money that large numbers of people are willing and able to spend on gaming. Companies could make consoles with relatively new high midrange hardware, but there's never going to be a significant market for spending US$ 1000 on a new console every 18 months.

The main thing stopping me using a console isn't the hardware limitations of a console itself, though. It's the input devices. I have a console controller for my PC (literally - it's an Xbox 360 controller). I use it for racing games sometimes because I'm not into them enough to buy a wheel and a joystick is better than a keyboard for steering. Other than that, it's an absymal input device in comparison to a mouse and keyboard. Far less precise, far less versatile, far less comfortable.

fallout3123 wrote: in a way i like that becuase if it werent for consoles you would have to buy new hardware every year

I'm not against console players.
I'm not even against consoles.
I'm against the pathological dishonesty of public companies.

This a problem that is created by giving control to people who could care less about the product and only care about getting money for nothing. If the receipt-bearing consumer base had an equal say in the leadership and running of a public company, relative to the shareholders, returns would be better for the shareholders and the consumers would start getting what they paid for - instead of excuses dressed up as waivers of statutory (i.e. inalienable) rights.

Alas, if the people in charge can't figure out really basic stuff, like this, things are going to have to get a lot worse before they ever begin to show any sign of improvement.

[boomerizer]

 

 

Plus, that was written about a year ago. That is ancient in internet time.

 

- and yet you still see some people stating they are against it. Author and user alike.

 

I wasn't saying that in a manner that would say that paid mods are OK. I'm glad people are against paid mods, and hope they remain vocal to it, and make sure Bethesda knows to let that beast be.

[MrJoseCuervo]

In response to post #39533645. #39575050, #39575985, #39577845, #39608100 are all replies on the same post.

jet4571 wrote: Different topic so new post...

"End time-out, resume play." About just above that.

I am against consoles in general. Not the users, they are just someone who enjoys games. I am against consoles themselves because they are holding back game technology and in a sense computer hardware across the board as well. Last gen consoles lasted what 10 years? 10 years of the same outdated when first released hardware? Back in the 90's PC gaming pushed hardware makers to make faster more powerful hardware and the advances were fast paced and meaningful to keep up with new games. Even Intel was advertising and upgrading because of games. Running the latest game the fastest was a selling point even if it was for an office typewriter replacement. Then comes cross platform games and all that came to a slow crawl. No more was a PC game pushing the PC to it's limits and had so much more to show if the PC was better. Today even the minimum specs are not correct.

I have an I7 920 and a GTX 750TI and can run vanilla FO4 at ultra settings even without the shadow problem Gopher was having on his much better hardware(I so wanted to tease him too). If November 2016 was 1997 instead and I had the same aged hardware and FO4 was just released with specs similar to any game of the era I wouldn't even be able to see the main menu. Yet I can play on ultra settings today? That is because of the last generation of consoles and now the current generation being outdated hardware before they are released. Consoles have held back advances in gaming and in hardware by 10 or more years. That's not the console users fault, it is Microsoft and Sony's fault.

ManleySteele wrote: Designing and producing a more capable console is a trivial challenge if we're just discussing the engineering aspects of the exercise. The problems don't appear until you start trying to sell them for a profit. Never forget that all these business entities are for profit businesses. They have to sell seats to stay in business. The game developers have the same problem. They have to sell to the predominate seats first and to everyone else afterwards. That everyone else is us.

It's easy to forget that the only hardware on sale that is dedicated to gaming first are the consoles. Everything else is designed for some other problem domain. Lucky for us, they're also good for gaming. A console that would push games they way we want them pushed would have to be priced between $1000 and $2000. You couldn't sell enough to stay in business.

Tahnval wrote: My issue with consoles is that they dominate game development and always for the worse. Simplified everything and badly implemented and heavily limited controls are the norm now and that bothers me more than graphics designed for outdated and cut-down hardware and PC ports that are not just unoptimised but actually counter-optimised as a result of being designed for consoles.

It won't change, though, because developing for a console is inherently much easier and therefore much cheaper because you're developing for one set of hardware running one set of software. A PS4 is a PS4. Pick 10,000 PCs and you are very unlikely to find any 2 the same in all relevant ways. Then you have to make the game scale to at least some extent across hardware with wildly different capabilities, which at the very least means adding the ability to change lots of options. You have to add the ability to use various input devices and to rebind controls. Much easier to develop for console and then make a console game work to a degree on PC and rely on the power of a PC to brute force through the inefficiencies. Or not bother at all. Consoles will be a bigger market because they're cheaper to buy and simpler to use, which is what people usually want with most things.

Which is why it's not consoles holding back hardware development. It's the money that large numbers of people are willing and able to spend on gaming. Companies could make consoles with relatively new high midrange hardware, but there's never going to be a significant market for spending US$ 1000 on a new console every 18 months.

The main thing stopping me using a console isn't the hardware limitations of a console itself, though. It's the input devices. I have a console controller for my PC (literally - it's an Xbox 360 controller). I use it for racing games sometimes because I'm not into them enough to buy a wheel and a joystick is better than a keyboard for steering. Other than that, it's an absymal input device in comparison to a mouse and keyboard. Far less precise, far less versatile, far less comfortable.

fallout3123 wrote: in a way i like that becuase if it werent for consoles you would have to buy new hardware every year

RealmEleven wrote: I'm not against console players.
I'm not even against consoles.
I'm against the pathological dishonesty of public companies.

This a problem that is created by giving control to people who could care less about the product and only care about getting money for nothing. If the receipt-bearing consumer base had an equal say in the leadership and running of a public company, relative to the shareholders, returns would be better for the shareholders and the consumers would start getting what they paid for - instead of excuses dressed up as waivers of statutory (i.e. inalienable) rights.

Alas, if the people in charge can't figure out really basic stuff, like this, things are going to have to get a lot worse before they ever begin to show any sign of improvement.

I agree, consoles are the fast food of gaming.

[ThinkerTinker]

In response to post #39606255.

boomerizer wrote:

 

In response to post #39594035.

boomerizer wrote:

The person shouldn't have to google everything just to pander to mod authors. If a mod is uploaded to Bethesda.net, it is Bethesda's responsibility to make sure it works, and doesn't break a game.

In response to post #39590680. #39591610, #39591915, #39592885 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote:

So, what? You're just OK with breaking savegames, games, and consoles?

..Ignorance can't be an excuse, no one is innocent...

The average console user, I wager just opens up Fallout 4> Clicks Mods> Browses Mods> Clicks Download> Wash Rinse Repeat until satisfied or download queue is full or whatever> Returns to menu> Stars game.

There is NO WAY OF TELLING THE MOD IS STOLEN. What about that do you not flippin understand?

Is your ego that fragile that you're perfectly fine with "console peasants" being out, possibly $300 because of your free mod being redistributed? Please go away, don't start this again. I don't want to talk about the pure shittiness of that attitude. If you're that fragile, just stop modding. Just stop-- you obviously don't care about the community. Back to the way I put it:

You're burning a village, to catch a thief. IT. IS. MADNESS. Good Job, Targaeryen. Answer all your problems with fire.

EDIT: Furthermore, by including scripts that may break a game or console, you are supplying weapons to the terrorists now, you realize that? You're doing the work for them. By doing so, you have yourself become the very thing that will destroy the modding community. Good Job, on that one.

jwa1975 wrote:

In response to post #39590680.

boomerizer wrote:

So, what? You're just OK with breaking savegames, games, and consoles?

..Ignorance can't be an excuse, no one is innocent...

The average console user, I wager just opens up Fallout 4> Clicks Mods> Browses Mods> Clicks Download> Wash Rinse Repeat until satisfied or download queue is full or whatever> Returns to menu> Stars game.

There is NO WAY OF TELLING THE MOD IS STOLEN. What about that do you not flippin understand?

Is your ego that fragile that you're perfectly fine with "console peasants" being out, possibly $300 because of your free mod being redistributed? Please go away, don't start this again. I don't want to talk about the pure shittiness of that attitude. If you're that fragile, just stop modding. Just stop-- you obviously don't care about the community. Back to the way I put it:

You're burning a village, to catch a thief. IT. IS. MADNESS. Good Job, Targaeryen. Answer all your problems with fire.

EDIT: Furthermore, by including scripts that may break a game or console, you are supplying weapons to the terrorists now, you realize that? You're doing the work for them. By doing so, you have yourself become the very thing that will destroy the modding community. Good Job, on that one.

I was in Iraq for 3 years and never saw someone carrying around a Xbox to try and kill me with. I saw plenty of RPG rockets, bullets flying past me, IED explosions which crippled me, and many other things. To say that including F4SE scripts is supplying terrorists with a type of weapon is just ignorant. Why don't you go screw yourself before insulting any more vets that actually play these moddable games. F4SE is harmless you stupid ignorant s***, especially when used as DRM. It is a preventive measure and when used correctly a good one. Games are full of scripts, its how they function you corroded *censored*. God bless America, because we the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines will fight the wars.

Namea wrote: As a fellow veteran I find your use of the term "Rag Head" disgusting and quite indicative of the type of person you must be.

Derrick93 wrote: you should ask this to bethesda since all this mess is caused from them. Bethesda is responsable of bethesda.net, same for the safety and stability of the console version. And just to say, this is one of the most stupid comment i ever read on nexus.

Such drama.

Console users are not imbeciles. Some mods are going to break saves. PC users deal with this every time we download a mod, too. It happens. Missing masters, incorrect file locations (due to author or installation method, I have dealt with both), hell, I couldn't play Fallout 4 for two days recently because of Beth's ninja-patch, so F4SE didn't work. We have learned how to work within the limitations of modifying the game well beyond its original design parameters--it's one of the fun parts of modding for many of us--and we are aware of the problems it can cause. Console users have not dealt with that on their machines yet, but this is not Armageddon we're talking about here. These are computers, running video games.

There is a way to tell if a mod is stolen. Console users just need to be told how--it is called Google, and you type in the mod's title in that little search bar, and if you see it listed in the results on the Nexus or somewhere else, visit the page. If the author matches the Bethnet listing, or if the author has stated it is on Bethnet, you know it's legitimate. If not, just steer clear. If a console user is too lazy to do this (if they can access Bethnet on their XBone, they have internet, complete with browser, so there are literally NO EXCUSES on that, once they know), then they are choosing to be complicit with using potentially stolen mods. As Bethnet/CK gets fixed/improves, this step should be unnecessary, but until then, spread the word. Console users are not babies, despite the smack talk. They can manage simple internet searches.

When you learn to ride a bike or climb a tree, do you get hurt? Usually. Some skinned knees, maybe a broken arm, but you learn, and part of it is learning how not to skin your knees and break your arms. That's where the console community is right now. "They don't know any better" is not an excuse, it's condescending to the point of insult. Console users are learning, and once the furor of this whole debacle dies down a bit, they will keep learning, and get better, and maybe, just maybe, become a great part of the established modding community.

You deride pixelhate by saying they solve all their problems with fire, but you are the one pouring gasoline on this flame war just to watch the world burn. You also invoke terrorists, an odd metaphor (I HOPE it's a metaphor), so what's next, comparing someone to Hitler? Stop being a pedant and instead spread the word in the console community about their responsibility--yes, responsibility--in making sure the mods they download are legitimate. If you have no interest in doing that, you are simply here to whine and argue, which makes your comments less than useless, it makes them part of the problem.

Don't be that guy.

And JWA, are you serious? Did you seriously believe I meant ISLAMIC TERRORISTS? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

GO home. Go to the VA and get your s*** checked, because clearly you are TRIGGERED. Je zuz f'in Kryst. No.

I, of course, meant the petulant children that steal mods, include some nefarious script with the intent to f*** s*** up. Hackers. Script kiddies. Whatever you want to call them. You're an idiot that you think that I meant islamic extremists. I mean, I really want to be nice, here, I really do, but people like you make it extremely difficult.

Mods aren't free DLC that come with hundreds of hours of QA and bug testing. Never have been, never will be. Although I love that consoles are finally being able to have mods because I've loved modding every Bethesda game since Oblivion and I started playing that on Xbox back in 2006/7, I'm beginning to think more and more that perhaps console owners shouldn't really get that privilege. There seem to be lots who think that a mod is just "click this button and install and your magically ready to go." F*** that noise, seriously. What this community USED to be was a tight knit group of people who would make mods, try them out, and in many cases an insane amount of troubleshooting and feedback was required. Anyone honestly expecting the ability to plug and play without having to do any background research on the mod and its compatibility is going to be a detriment to the community, plain and simple. While they're doing this background research, I suspect any issues about mod thievery would likely arise. I hope that most console users don't anticipate this being the case but...your attitude suggests otherwise.

 

Also please try to remember that out 11 MILLION users on this site, how many people are actually posting opinions that don't conform to yours in a comfortable manner? I may be a rough, cringing experience on the fragile psyches of certain individuals, but I am only One. Out of ELVEN MILLION, on this site. [That number is likely inflated, due to people with multiple accounts, or old accounts no longer used, etc]. How many of us that have consoles haven't just been here for 1 month or less. I've said before, not every console player ONLY has a console.

 

Just remember that, OK? How few people are actually against this mob madness.

 

In regards to mods not being plug and play, that is exactly what most of these mods are. I download, via NMM, I activate. I launch game. Done and Done. Likewise with BethNet ingame mod browser. If mod doesn't work, I uninstall and am done with it. How hard was that? C'mon, you're really over-complicating the work, in regard to most mods. I understand there are mods that take a long time to make, and often require constant tweaking, but BethNet mods have to be small, and the less complex the mod, the more plug and play it is. This isn't rocket science, fellas.

 

As far as Bethesda ripping off a mod into a paid DLC-- going to guess Hearthfire for Skyrim? Can't really prove that it wasn't a system they weren't already working on. After the games' release in 2011, Todd Howard spoke and presented a short video of things that developers were asked to work on-- they could work on anything they wanted, but it had to be within Skyrim-- house building was among these things, along with things that would end up being in Dawnguard, and Dragonborne. So, you can't prove that. Not really, anyway.

 

I noticed during E3 when they were showing what was coming next, the build your own vault thing made me a little sour, I'm like "I can do that already..."

 

But I get the DLC for free regardless, so its whatever to me.

Are you passively suggesting that you pirate the DLC? I'm genuinely confused by that last remark. And I'm not sure what brought up the "Bethesda ripping off a mod into a paid DLC" rhetoric; maybe I'm misinterpreting the origin of it. Either way, I don't really have any statements to make on this topic :/

I'm one of those people that has a really nice gaming PC, a really nice gaming laptop, a PS4, and an Xbox One (legit not trying to boast - I am blessed in being able to support my hobby and just trying to make a point of how platform-agnostic I am). I suspect that console users are just as intellectually capable as PC users of troubleshooting. That's not the point I'm really trying to make (as I think I failed at getting that across). The crux of my concern for console users is that they're much more restricted on being able to troubleshoot their mod issues than PC users are.

Now ideally there won't be a(s much) need to troubleshoot on the scale a PC user needs to in console mods. But I'd also like to believe that console versions of mods are going to be just as fleshed out as their PC counterparts. Unfortunately, both of those desires are simple irreconcilable. If you believe otherwise then I don't think you're modding properly. TES5Edit is essentially a requirement for establishing and determining compatibility for anything more than a couple dozen mods installed. Its not rocket science, no, but its still more complicated than matching shaped blocks with their counter-part holes.

Also, if you're activating and uninstalling mods willy-nilly that's horrible practice. I mean, I'm assuming you're oversimplifying in that statement but in case you really aren't, and I hate to sound condescending, but you really need to read some beginner's guide to modding articles. It doesn't matter if there's 11 BILLION people doing what you're doing while trying mods, if they're doing it while not respecting the practices of a community that has been collectively modding for probably as many years, then that's still 11 BILLION people modding wrongly. And yes, you can mod wrongly. Especially on a console.

[midtek]

In response to post #39588720. #39590110, #39603345 are all replies on the same post.

fuzziewuzzie wrote: How about, as a way to counter piracy, to add a useless script requiring F4SE to any mod that you don't want on consoles. It wouldn't work, right? I don't know too much about modding but making it not work or crash on console seems like a good way to curtail the theft of a mod. It's like those magnetic strips that deactivate stolen goods at the store. (I think).

midtek wrote: That doesn't sound like a good idea. Anyone can remove empty scripts and reupload it if the script has no function. Plus, scripting is a serious business. You don't know how much time they spend for optimizing and to make better of the creation. Useless script is an insult to makers and also to users. If brought it that way, building useful script for protection would be likely preferable; still missing the point of this incident tho.

ThinkerTinker wrote: I'm an advocate for this approach. I know it has its fair critiques but for more immediate term, I think its a viable solution.

Yes, you could definitely just remove an empty script if it serves no function, but what if it had a function? Have the script call an script extender-only function and if it returns a value then obviously a script extender is loaded and the user is on a PC. I'm not sure how to accomplish it technically right off the top of my head for protecting against loose textures and assets but I'm sure it could be done too. Maybe this function has a signature (not "function signature", but like...some other kind of coded signature) that is unique to that author. Maybe that signature taps into another external application that allows checks to determine the registration of that mod and the author. That's really complicated but I think the point still stands.

The idea of course is not to damage anything; if the script is loaded and a function call is made that the game can not handle then something blows up - maybe a message box, error warning, maybe it crashes. I don't condone intentionally corrupting saves or ruining hardware out of spite.

I can't think of any reason why I would consider including a script for a mod I make as insulting, especially if that script serves to protect my work.

I think the point of this incident is exactly: how do we protect author's work on their mods? So I think this solution is definitely on the right track though. I'm definitely open to criticism though!

Useful script for protection I said. Empty decoy serves a security function, in a pity level that anyone can breach in seconds and recoat with mockery up showing how you are an useless scripter even a minute fun couldn't be provided while breaching it.

At least that's how my lads considered about similar case. If you go on a protection, you script useful protection that provides functional barricade. Some kind of DRM tech can be involved and be distributed to others. You put proud on making it. Empty script is bare to the bones.