Boycott Beth.net

[TeamBacon]

 

This is a bit naiive, I think. It's fair to say that this is the intent of how the system would work, but at the same time I'm reminded of the "One Extra Apple" mod the first time paid mods came around. And there's almost no incentive to not slap a price tag on something available now for free other than a vague sense of what people ought to do.

 

So let's say I was a fairly self-important modder, I would feel perfectly justified taking what I charged nothing for before and charging 5$ for it now without a single change in operational quality of the mod. While the modders I know aren't the kind of people who do that kind of thing, you're bound to find that "one extra" bad apple who will do that sort of thing. And probably a small but noteworthy percent of the modding community will see no real need to change their content to justify the additional cost.

 

And I'm not even sure they should.

 

See, if you think about it, the mods already should be of the highest quality they can be, right? So if paid modding returns, which is pure speculation at this point, why should they feel compelled to not charge for the product as it already exists?

 

 

But then you also have to look at how big of a pain it is working with a free program like Blender.

 

Take that same artist and buy him/her Zbrush and a Wacom tablet and there is no doubt in my mind that all future quality goes up, up, and up as time goes on. It might not effect the mods they made last week. You might not even see results next week. But in the long run the quality will only go up as a result.

 

Industry standard tools are expensive, and most people don't have access to them. I happen to be lucky and my former employer let me keep my Zbrush license, but I would never pay that kind of money to make free mods.

 

http://store.pixologic.com/ZBrush-4R7-Single-User-License/

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4RE4AG5250&cm_re=intuos_medium-_-23-100-124-_-Product

 

 

 

Wacom stuff seems to be getting more and more expensive as well... sigh...

 

 

 

It isn't just about motivation to do a good job. Sometimes our job requires tools... Tools that cost money.

Edited July 18, 2016 by TeamBacon

[Billy1969]

Well, the boycott discussion quickly changed to the unteempth paid mods debate, who didn't see that one coming?

 

Fact is, the modmakers that expect (or know? Maybe beth contacted them again and they have now prior knowledge) paid modding to be back, will never participate in a boycott as that would be bad publicity, especially towards their future console customers.

 

Probably they have already their excel spreadsheet ready with projected revenue ð and it's looking so good that they wouldn't complain even if beth would feed them poop every day lol.

 

So my conclusion is boycott is impossible as not enough people would participate.

 

And don't quote me, as I don't care if paid mods will be back or not...

[Alexotero1219]

 

 

2 things. You forgot that the consumer gets something new that he paid $4 for, that he wouldn't have had to pay money for in the past. So its not a WIN WIN WIN its a loose win win. Company and modder win whereas the consumer looses. I don't think I need to prove this when you look at the massive backlash from the original paid modding attempt. Its obvious.

 

Lastly, at least from what ive seen, most modders are leaving right now because of bethesda.net and its poor design the harassment from the userbase there and rampant mod theft. Not because theres no paid modding. At least thats what I see.

 

1. You are wrong. If a user pays 4$ for something, then he pays money for something he would not get for that level of quality before. And you can bet money (for real!) than something with a 4$ price tag will be of much higher quality. I worked my tush off for 3 weeks on Murphy Wildlands to get it ready for the Nvivida contest. Money is one hell of a motivator. Sure I would have paid the same level of attention to detail without the prospect of money, but I would have worked a lot slower.

At this point you are just begging for cheaper prices or trying to block paid mods because you don't get a cut. And that backlash was 100% not modders who might make money but users who are angry at someone making money without them getting a cut. Basic envy. The hilarious thing is that people come up with all types of imaginary arguments on how a modder (soemone else than the complainer) making money.

Envy is an emotion that is impossible to control, one can only conceal it. Here is a test: Watch some reporters asking random people on the street whether a certain profession is right to strike to get an x % of wage increase. Most people will say it is not just or fair and use very graphic language. Just because they are not getting a cut of it.

 

2. I was not harassed once on Bethesda.net and I like how the mod site is seamlessly integrated into the game.

 

1. You have no idea if thats accurate and as someone else stated before its naive. Sure you might think monetizing something will increase the quality but that simply isnt true. The way markets like this tend to work is they produce what is in demand not what is innovative or better. To provide a more grounded example do you remember skyrim nexus when people found out they could make cbbe slutware and get 100 thousand endorsements? I do. Now imagine if modders figured out they could make skimpy clothes and make 100 thousand dollars?

 

Every single, and I do mean every single, innovative modder would stop all their projects to learn how to make outfits to make skimpy armors and get in on that money. That is 100% how market economies work lol its not even arguable. So no just because something has a price tag now doesn't mean it will suddenly become more innovative and higher quality. Maybe armors and such might reach higher level of quality but the less profitable, and often times most interesting an innovated mods such as quests will decrease in quality and quantity.

 

2. This is anecdotal and you might be the only mod author besides magnus that ive personally seen describe their beth.net experience that way but im glad you're having a positive experience.

 

 

@magnus

I agree with everything you said except the first part. No one would upload their paid for mod on one site and upload a free version on another. So yeah the mod that a user could get for free will no longer be uploaded for free or it will be with cut features (see skyUI) So yeah the consumer still looses.

[Mitigate]

I absolutely stand by the insult I flung at you in my first post. You are a jerk.

 

I've only been a minor writer or lore consultant on mods that are currently published, that doesn't invalidate my right to have an opinion in a conversation about the future of modding.

 

Jerk.

 

 

 

There's nothing elitist about it.

 

 

console peasants be damned.

 

You may wish to consider how the sentiments you express come across to the reader, if you're concerned about being misjudged.

 

I laughed. I laughed hard. For like five minutes.

You can barely mention consoles without telling console gamers off. But man, you're so not an elitist! Maybe you're just... wait, what was it?

 

 

 

... you're kinda a jerk, aren't you?

 

 

Right. You're a jerk. That's what it was.

Regardless of my position on consoles, they are still completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Also my manners and general tone do not determine whether I am ultimately right or wrong. Just wanted to clear that up.

Carry on.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Mitigate

[Deleted82156User]

 

Keep saying I started the insults if it makes you feel better. I'm not upset. I merely pointed out that, by your reasoning, you and Lelcat were the first to resort to petty insults. Anyone can flick back and see that for themselves though.

 

Oh I did flick back and noted the multiple times you outright called Arthmoor a 'sellout'.

 

You've just latched onto this idea and tried to use it to belittle me when it's actually completely irrelevant to the discussion. A discussion about something in which the negative impacts you've refused to acknowledge because you're blinded by the prospect of getting paid...

 

Annnd again...the insults....assumptions...and outrageous, ignorant accusations.

 

Maybe you're still star struck from Bethesda possibly contacting you last time? I assume they did. Stating that someone would be a sellout if they fit the description in some future time isn't an insult. it's pointing out a fact. If you dislike that fact. Don't sellout.

 

Aaaannnd there you go again with the whole 'sell out' crap!

 

 

 

I've only made minor mods for private use. Nothing no one else couldn't do. No, I wouldn't know exactly what goes into making a massive mod like the kind you're familiar with. I never claimed to though. But that's just something you'd bring up to try and belittle me further so whatever.

 

Seriously any attempts to belittle are in your head, the only thing clear is that you have issues with Arthmoor for some reason.

 

 

All I know about you is that you consider yourself a bigshot in the community,

 

Actually Arthmoor is the last person given to boasting or considering themselves a 'big shot'. I have known him since around 2006 and I have never seen him act like he is better then others or egotistical, not even once.....seriously.

 

you're keen to do whatever it takes to get some sweet cash by selling out on beth.net when they re-introduce paid mods,

 

 

Again with the 'sell out' accusations. But of course you have never called him a sell out, not once. :dry:

 

 

assuming I am merely jealous of your potential to earn money from modding.

 

 

You clearly have issues with it.

 

 

Other than this, I have never spoken to you or been involved with you at all except by appreciating and donating to your Unofficial Patches. Which I am not even sure you made entirely by yourself. I know you've been given a lot of fixes by others and included them in yours. Like I said, I never claimed that I was anything other than small potatoes.

 

 

So here instead of addressing the topic you resort to personal insults.

What's your point though?

 

 

What is yours exactly? You clearly take um-bridge at Bethesda and anyone who was involved in the pay for mods, Beyond that you just come across as feeling yourself entitled to others hard work for free.

 

Your arrogance is strong, I should apparently know damn well exactly who you are as if you are some kind of king and not just a part of the community like everyone else...The reality is that if you didn't make unofficial patches, someone else would have.

 

Your ignorance is strong at this point.

 

I'll be able to say I had the community in mind instead of money.

 

No....just no... it is more then clear that you have had your own interests at heart here. Without any consideration of others and especially others who pour thousands of hours of hard work for the benefit of others and have the omg 'gall' to ask for just a little in return.

 

I do know that the mod author called Chesko was royally f***ed over last time...

 

 

Wrong, the only one who f'd over Chesko was the self entitled little pricks in this community.

 

Because I recognize that capitalism cannot be redeemed and greed corrupts everything in this World, I know bethesda.net doesn't exist with the gamers' best interests at heart.

 

Translation....give me your hard work for free. If you don't then you are a 'sell out'.

 

Ultimately you just have to think back to their first attempt. All it was about was getting some easy cash from the modding scene. Which they realized was ripe for pillaging. Nothing about it was to make the community better. All it did was cause trouble.

The only trouble that arose was from entitled little *expletives* who think that they deserve the hard work of others for free and that the person who actually did the work deserves nothing. Little a'holes who sent death threats amongst other pleasantries to anyone who thought that modders actually deserve something in return for their hard work.

 

 

And they corrupt or trick mod authors into abandoning what they originally accepted modding was all about.

 

 

Bull.

[MasterMagnus]

@Alexotero1219

Yes I see your point, I was too quick to make that other argument.

 

You're totally right going forward.

 

Many musicians these days have songs that are intended to be given for free as promotion for the 'good stuff'. So yeah, it will happen to some degree, you're right.

[Alexotero1219]

@Alexotero1219

Yes I see your point, I was too quick to make that other argument.

 

You're totally right going forward.

 

Many musicians these days have songs that are intended to be given for free as promotion for the 'good stuff'. So yeah, it will happen to some degree, you're right.

Alright fair, im glad you managed to see what I was saying. Sometimes its hard to get even the most basic concepts across to others in text medium.

 

That being said I think its worth noting what magnus did here. You can acknowledge someones point without necessarily agreeing with it. Too many times it feels like discussions on the nexus, especially about this topic, are treated like a zero sum game. People think only they are 100% right or the other guy is 100% right and that kind of discussion is I think evident in this thread. It is possible that both parties are wrong and the truth lies somewhere in between, its also possible that both parties are right but coming from different perspectives. You can acknowledge the way someone feels about a topic and honestly it isnt hard to understand where most people are coming from if you think long enough with some effort. Everyone that disagrees with you isnt a jerk or a sellout its possible they are just seeing it from a different angle.

[lelcat]

 

Someone read too much Adam Smith.

 

Okay, so basically, this is how it would work if people weren't people. If everyone behaved exactly the way that market theory dictates, the problems would solve themselves. But people do not behave rationally and will buck the expectations of the system for any number of reasons.

 

Assume, for a moment, that I make a mod that's easily copied. Say, something that stops the new radio files from starting after Confidence Man. That's a pretty simple edit that I'm actually not quite sure I'm not just doing right now instead of talking about it. But I knock it out in an afternoon and toss it out on Nexus. Then, two years from now, paid modding returns. Well, there probably won't be a lot of people who want my mod but don't have it yet, but I'll take it down from free hosting services and put it up on commercial ones. Not a single change to the file. Even if not many people download the paid version, I've still managed to pull some profit from the work.

 

Now, someone comes along with a mod that does the same thing. They decry me for having 'sold out' by moving my mod to a paid model, but theirs is on the paid site as well. Which of us is the 'bad guy'? Me for discontinuing free access to my mod or the copycat for trying to release the same product based on the idea that I'm a sellout?

 

And even if his mod is cleaner than mine, or somehow slightly more streamlined, what is the practical difference to the player? Other than he says his is better?

 

And consider something without an easy replication, like a questmod or a voiced companion. If I follow the same model of moving it to a paid distributor without any marked changes or increases in quality, you can't reasonably release a mod that does the same thing better or does the same thing free because by its nature what I made is unique. Short of mod theft you can't create the exact same product.

 

Now let's look at two similar ideas tackling the same thing. Let's say that I move an Easy City Downs race betting mod to a paid platform without meaningfully changing it, and someone else makes their own. By some measure or other, theirs can be claimed 'better' than mine. But still, both will likely continue to collect purchases. Both Minutemen 2.0 and We Are The Minutemen tackle the same problem in different ways, and both are top-downloaded faction mods.

 

So, essentially, the ideology of the perfect free market solution doesn't actually work in the real world. The market doesn't solve the problem of people making a quick buck, it actually actively encourages them to.

 

And again, I'm not completely convinced this is a bad thing. It sucks for consumers, sure, but I'm not sure that makes it wrong.

 

As for the failure of "trash mods", a mod that added a single extra apple to Skyrim was a smash success. You cannot count on the consumers to make rational decisions on quality of product either.

 

 

 

1. I never read any of Adam Smith's works and you do not need to have read Marx either. The base logic of the free market is something everyone who sells things will understand.

2. You should not worry about people calling you sell-out. Envious people will always hate you for what you have. However, if you decide to sell a mod without any additional content that you made available for free before, you can expect your ratings to go down which will affect customer confidence in your products.

3. About unique mods, they can still be compared to each other. Two different weapon mods can have vastly different production values. One can be trash that just collects old weapon models from fpsbanana and puts them into a mod, and the other could be a from scratch model with high end production value.

4. And if 2 different ideas do the same thing, the better one will have more sales. And the best one is the bar other mods will be compared to and that will also regulate their prices.

5. The quick buck never works, because if you screw over a customer with a product that looks nice on the surface but is trash, which the player will notice, then your ratings will go down.

6. About the apple mod. If that thing sold for 1$, and someone bought it with the clear description "Adds a new apple", well then you got your money's worth as a customer. And what if the texture on the apple was supreme? And if it sold millions of copies then it did something right. After all you can decide on your own what you want to buy.

 

The market will adjust the price of things. It works in a game's microcosmos. So let's not drag in other real world complications of different free market situations.

 

 

Ask yourself, when you buy a new graphics card, or a radio, or a pair of shoes (because you are a woman), what do you pay attention too? My guess: Brand name and what you associate with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. You have no idea if thats accurate and as someone else stated before its naive. Sure you might think monetizing something will increase the quality but that simply isnt true. The way markets like this tend to work is they produce what is in demand not what is innovative or better. To provide a more grounded example do you remember skyrim nexus when people found out they could make cbbe slutware and get 100 thousand endorsements? I do. Now imagine if modders figured out they could make skimpy clothes and make 100 thousand dollars?

 

Every single, and I do mean every single, innovative modder would stop all their projects to learn how to make outfits to make skimpy armors and get in on that money. That is 100% how market economies work lol its not even arguable. So no just because something has a price tag now doesn't mean it will suddenly become more innovative and higher quality. Maybe armors and such might reach higher level of quality but the less profitable, and often times most interesting an innovated mods such as quests will decrease in quality and quantity.

 

2. This is anecdotal and you might be the only mod author besides magnus that ive personally seen describe their beth.net experience that way but im glad you're having a positive experience.

 

 

@magnus

I agree with everything you said except the first part. No one would upload their paid for mod on one site and upload a free version on another. So yeah the mod that a user could get for free will no longer be uploaded for free or it will be with cut features (see skyUI) So yeah the consumer still looses.

 

1. Yes it is true, the proof is nearly every modern video game you bought. You think Doom or COD or BF4 would look this glorious if the company and its employees would not have been motivated by a big paycheck to work so hard on it? Money is the best motivator. If money were no motivator we would still be stuck with pacman and text adventures.

 

 

Every single, and I do mean every single, innovative modder would stop all their projects to learn how to make outfits to make skimpy armors and get in on that money. That is 100% how market economies work lol its not even arguable. So no just because something has a price tag now doesn't mean it will suddenly become more innovative and higher quality. Maybe armors and such might reach higher level of quality but the less profitable, and often times most interesting an innovated mods such as quests will decrease in quality and quantity.

You are wrong again. Let's assume for the sake of argument that an apple mod would cost 1$. A quest mod with some new interior cells 4$. Mods that are larger than that will command a larger price tag because of the work involved. And you need to consider the market demand for different things. Not all players want an apple mod. Some players want gun mods, or new companions or new maps.

 

 

Every single, and I do mean every single, innovative modder would stop all their projects to learn how to make outfits to make skimpy armors and get in on that money. That is 100% how market economies work lol its not even arguable.

Making skimpy armor requires work too. Just because it has tits does not mean the production quality is low. And if market economies would indeed work like that, then why are there Porsches, SUV cars and not just reasonably priced toyotas?

Some people want top-shelf things and are willing to pay a higher price for that. And money is the biggest motivator and the biggest quality tester too. When someone has paid money for a mod he will make sure you get carpet bombed with complaints about the tiniest bugs in your mod. And if the mod you just sold for 20$ does not hold up that level of scrutiny then your ratings will go down and it will damagee your sales.

Edited July 18, 2016 by lelcat

[MasterMagnus]

 

... It is possible that both parties are wrong and the truth lies somewhere in between, its also possible that both parties are right but coming from different perspectives. ...

 

 

I can't count the number of times I say exactly this in a day. Any given day.

 

Well said.

[Deleted82156User]

Because modders, no matter what they say in public, are drooling at the prospect of (what they think) is 'easy money' when Bethesda re-introduces payment for mods.

 

See the CS:GO-lotto scandal (Valve forcing under-aged illegal gambling into the gaming community by hiring economic and DRM experts to monetise virtual items, all while APPEARING to have clean hands)? Zenimax seeks to exploit the same types of foolish people by DRM prorecting mods and monetising them, using the same advice from economic experts.

 

Get rich quick schemes never go away, cos there's always enough fools thinking they will be the ones getting rich, not the people running the con.

 

People modded for FUN. If peeps wanted paying, there are millions of legit careers in every aspect of the computer creative fields. But Beth knows it only has to wave a TINY (to Zenimax) amount of money in front of the noses of modders, and many of them insanely fantasise that modding could become a 'career'. Same reason idiots play the lottery.

 

Stage one, in the minds of such people, is the need to CREEP to Bethesda as hard as they can in the hope that their grovelling will 'pursuade' Beth to do what Beth has intended all along- to exploit modding with money.

 

How many people have the brains NOT to play the lottery because they correctly understand the precepts of rational gambling? Not many.

 

Nexus is an astonishing service, and deserves the greatest loyalty. Sadly Nexus is about to discover just how shallow and foolish most people are.

Ignorance and selfishness must truly be bliss, because this post reeks of it.

 

Lets start with this gem...

 

Because modders, no matter what they say in public, are drooling at the prospect of (what they think) is 'easy money' when Bethesda re-introduces payment for mods.

You telepathic dude? The fact is that you have absolutely NO idea what modders are thinking. You are so far off here that you are in delusional land here.

 

 

See the CS:GO-lotto scandal (Valve forcing under-aged illegal gambling into the gaming community by hiring economic and DRM experts to monetise virtual items, all while APPEARING to have clean hands)? Zenimax seeks to exploit the same types of foolish people by DRM prorecting mods and monetising them, using the same advice from economic experts.

 

 

First Valve did not 'force' anyone to do anything. You are spouting completely ignorant crap here. A few you tubers who owned that company did a bit of false advertising in order to con people into using the site they owned. NOTHING to do with pay for mods and not even a close analogy of pay for mods.

 

Get rich quick schemes never go away, cos there's always enough fools thinking they will be the ones getting rich, not the people running the con.

 

 

No one has any ideas about getting rich quick and while we are here....'easy money!?' You are deluding yourself if you think that mods are easy or fast to make. Do some friggin research before spouting complete lies.

 

People modded for FUN. If peeps wanted paying, there are millions of legit careers in every aspect of the computer creative fields. But Beth knows it only has to wave a TINY (to Zenimax) amount of money in front of the noses of modders, and many of them insanely fantasise that modding could become a 'career'. Same reason idiots play the lottery.

 

 

Where do you get off dictating to us why we mod. Your ignorance speaks volumes here. Firstly 'legit careers in computer fields' are NOTHING like modding, secondly such careers are not freely available to all and sundry. This pathetic excuse has been used by the ignorant, self entitled over and over during and after the paid for mods. You stand there and tell us all that we are 'fantasizing this or that'. Who the hell do you think you are!? You have ZERO idea what myself and other modders are thinking so kindly keep your delusions to yourself.

 

Stage one, in the minds of such people, is the need to CREEP to Bethesda as hard as they can in the hope that their grovelling will 'pursuade' Beth to do what Beth has intended all along- to exploit modding with money.

 

You are waaay out of order here and being exceptionally rude. Keep your delusions and insults to yourself. Again you have ZERO knowledge of what people are thinking.

 

 

How many people have the brains NOT to play the lottery because they correctly understand the precepts of rational gambling? Not many.

 

Wow, that is a stupid statement to make. Selling mods has nothing to do with the lottery and if you think the odds of succeeding are the same then you are are really into loony land here. The paid for mods actually made a very good profit in the short time it was up.

 

Nexus is an astonishing service, and deserves the greatest loyalty. Sadly Nexus is about to discover just how shallow and foolish most people are.

 

Starting with yourself and the blatant self entitled, selfish attitude demonstrated by yourself here. You have no right to mods and to stand there and state that modders do not deserve compensation for their hundreds and often thousands of hours of work is the lowest of the low.

 

 

 

 

TimeLadyKatie, on 18 Jul 2016 said:

As for the failure of "trash mods", a mod that added a single extra apple to Skyrim was a smash success. You cannot count on the consumers to make rational decisions on quality of product either.

 

 

 

That mod was specifically put there to demonize the pay for mods and make an example of how it wouldn't work. It was not a realistic portrayal of pay for mods at all, people were supporting it to make a statement against pay for mods.