Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[macole]

The "dumbing down", while it could be applied to the lack of stats/numbers, seems to apply more to a few other things. The numbers can be gotten by with/worked around/ignored. The really tragic part of the dumbing down process was the removal outright of customization as far as spell choices/creation of new spells, and the ability to customize your armor/clothing through more wearable item slots. While I understand the argument "we don't want to overwhelm people", it's very hard to argue that it cannot be called dumbing it down for the masses.

 

Things like the UI fall more under an massive failure of consolization than dumbing down, though the removal of any buff/debuff list from the HUD leans more towards dumbing down. The lack of more skills/stats can be an annoyance for some, but it is not totally game-breaking, and likely will see a change via mods down the road (after all, we got a full conversion of Oblivion from the skill-bar levels to XP per kill/quest, this can't be too much more complicated). I am not going to get into a full UI discussion again, though, as that has been discussed to death in many other threads what is wrong and what needs to change for K/M users.

 

All that said, Skyrim is still a good game, good enough to have drawn close to 100 hours played out of me, and I haven't even finished the main quest yet.

You hit it right on the nose when you say it is the removal of personal customization that is the core of the dumbing down problem. Once something is taken out the hard code it become next to impossible to add back in.

[Handofbane]

You know mate, that's a bit unsubtle, but I have to agree with you. Its shameful how many PC gamers treat their console kinsmen like second class citizens, the level of elitism is appauling. Frankly I sometimes feel ashamed to call myself a PC gamer simply because of how abnoxious the vocal PC gaming community is. Console players are gamers to, calling them the usual tropes of "idiots" or "casuals" just proves PC gamers are a pack of repulsive hidebound elitists, and makes me feel ashamed to identify with them, no matter my almost exclusively PC playing background.

 

Consoles are gaming for the masses, and as far as I'm concerned, that's entirely a good thing. More consoles = more gamers, more gamers, more profit in the industry, better industry = more games, more games, more fun. Treating console players like the spawn of all evil, acting as if ownership of a PC somehow maks you superior, and spouting endless garbage about how consoles are "ruining" the games industry is just shameful. We're all the same at a core level-we all love games.

Does using a PC make anyone superior to someone using a console? Not at all, but there is no denying that consoles are holding back the gaming industry as a whole, because if a company wants to sell mass numbers of copies, they have to tune their game for hardware that is 5-7 years old, rather than even attempt to take advantage of newer hardware or things like DirectX11. The complaint from a PC user's perspective boils down to a quantity vs quality argument - some companies want to push for quantity of sales rather than quality of product, to make that big buck sooner rather than later. Can anyone blame them for that? Not really, they are there to make a profit, but there *ARE* companies out there who actually do focus on putting out a quality PC game without worrying about having to make sure it's fit for a console above all else - companies like CD Projekt, Paradox Interactive, and a few others. Bethesda has guaranteed sales purely based on the game's name, as they did when they bought the rights for part of the Fallout franchise, and they take full advantage of that. The upsetting part is that they take advantage of their most hardcore customer base and pander primarily to new customers while outright ignoring several minor and major issues from their original customer base. Do any of us really want to see them follow in the footsteps of SOE with Star Wars Galaxies? (The first major name MMO to officially shut down for good as of next month, after driving off most of their own customer base when they changed major game mechanics completely, "dumbing it down" to draw in new players without even seeing if any of the old players thought it might be a good idea) I don't know about you, but I would prefer Bethesda learn from the mistakes of others and not get blinded by the $$ in their eyes.

 

And the other thing to remember is for some, ownership of a console is not a choice-a gaming PC is a lot more expensive than a console, and a lot of people lack the quantity of spare time needed to make their own. So, consoles attain some popularity by selling to those who cannot afford a PC. Console players aren't "12" or "a bunch of idiots" console games aren't "dumbed down for idiots" If anyone has a problem it's the PC community, who's elitism and willingness to attack people for difering likes or choices is absolutely shameful.

 

I miss the days when, a hella long time ago, being a PC gamer actualy meant something. Yes, a long time ago we were the elite, but not anymore, most gaming PCs are simply treated like consoles now, and so few people build their own rigs that they may aswell be another console. Yet the elitism remains, and has grown even stronger, and to be honest, I'm sick of it, when you badmouth a console player to seem cool, when you tell someone they're an idiot because they're too poor to buy a $7500 Alienware, all you do is drag the repuation of my beloved platform through the mud. It's like bogans-they drag the Australian flag through the mud by wearing it as a cape. :facepalm: For shame.

The PC gamers you are referring to are a vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. If all boards everywhere were like /v/, I could agree with you, but gaming forums cover the full spectrum, from the helpful to the "don't go there if you value your self esteem". That said, consider what a new PS3/360 costs today, and how much the games cost - on average they pay less for their consoles ($250-400), but get jacked on the games by $10-20 more each, which does add up fast. There are some sites out there where you can get a custom computer built, shipped to you, with a 3 year warranty for under $1000 (my current one cost me $900 shipping included, and while not top-of-the-line, will run everything I throw at it, just not on Ultra settings). Tack on things like Steam sales, which can cut your game purchasing costs anywhere from 20-75%, and suddenly the difference in pricing isn't nearly so wide overall, with replayability added to the mix thanks to many games working with mods like the Elder Scroll series.

 

Are there idiots out there who make us all look bad? Sure, but they exist no matter what platform they may claim as their own. There is no reason to lump everyone together just because a few loudmouths do their best to make everyone look bad.

[JimboUK]

It's not PC gamers who treat console gamers like halfwits, it's the developers. A lot of PC gamers will also own consoles, something developers and juvenile fanboys seem to forget. So instead of insulting other gamers lets put the blame where it belongs, with the developers and publishers.

[Goliath978]

I'm just astonished at what happened to the Pc community after the 2 years inleft it. I return and in BF, or any community I'll find elitists. I consider PC gamin beter but for my own reasons and I consider it an opinion rather than a fact that I will impose on others.

 

And old PC fundamentals are broken. The days of levels are gone. In the future there will be no levels or classes, because we'll have actual entertainment rather than having to be entertained by our ability to sit and drill a game for hours and say It has "DEPTH".

[JimboUK]

Has it occurred to you that people will have differing opinions? not everyone likes the same thing and it's perfectly normal for people to discuss their opinions on a forum.

[antonkr]

Skyrim is not dumbed down. It doesn't have pointless stats. Or pointless numbers. It has a lot more depth than Morrowind or Obliion combined, but for the misguided fool it may seem that fewer pointless numbers or stats mean the game is dumbed down. It's actually much deeper and more time can be spent ENJOYING the game, not the most pointless thing and something that I simply couldn't give a sh it about: the levels. I don't know what level I am. I just immerse into the world and if you'd stop trying to play it like dungeons and dragons or world of warnerd you'd be able to play 100hrs and have just breached the surface of things to do. Not levels to complete, but adventures.

 

Classes are pointless too.

All it is is purist fever: the core fans hate change and if it ain't a reskin of the favorite it's not a true sequel or is "dumbed down" as many purists are saying about Skyrim.

 

Same problem in any game community. I played morrowind lots too...great...in that level never cared about my level, and there was so mug less depth than oblivion. If you stop caring about the useless: levels and numbers and text, you'll see Skyrim kicks the sh it out of morrowind.

 

You know mate, that's a bit unsubtle, but I have to agree with you. Its shameful how many PC gamers treat their console kinsmen like second class citizens, the level of elitism is appauling. Frankly I sometimes feel ashamed to call myself a PC gamer simply because of how abnoxious the vocal PC gaming community is. Console players are gamers to, calling them the usual tropes of "idiots" or "casuals" just proves PC gamers are a pack of repulsive hidebound elitists, and makes me feel ashamed to identify with them, no matter my almost exclusively PC playing background.

 

Consoles are gaming for the masses, and as far as I'm concerned, that's entirely a good thing. More consoles = more gamers, more gamers, more profit in the industry, better industry = more games, more games, more fun. Treating console players like the spawn of all evil, acting as if ownership of a PC somehow maks you superior, and spouting endless garbage about how consoles are "ruining" the games industry is just shameful. We're all the same at a core level-we all love games.

 

And the other thing to remember is for some, ownership of a console is not a choice-a gaming PC is a lot more expensive than a console, and a lot of people lack the quantity of spare time needed to make their own. So, consoles attain some popularity by selling to those who cannot afford a PC. Console players aren't "12" or "a bunch of idiots" console games aren't "dumbed down for idiots" If anyone has a problem it's the PC community, who's elitism and willingness to attack people for difering likes or choices is absolutely shameful.

 

I miss the days when, a hella long time ago, being a PC gamer actualy meant something. Yes, a long time ago we were the elite, but not anymore, most gaming PCs are simply treated like consoles now, and so few people build their own rigs that they may aswell be another console. Yet the elitism remains, and has grown even stronger, and to be honest, I'm sick of it, when you badmouth a console player to seem cool, when you tell someone they're an idiot because they're too poor to buy a $7500 Alienware, all you do is drag the repuation of my beloved platform through the mud. It's like bogans-they drag the Australian flag through the mud by wearing it as a cape. :facepalm: For shame.

I am sure you would be saying things differently if you knew what Oblivion was supposed to have and didn't due to XBox 360.

And PC gaming in general is cheaper than console gaming. You seem to forget that for work/school/internet you still need at least a 400 dollar more or less decent computer. With an average console costing about 200, you can either have a shitty comp and a console, or a decent comp for 600.

[macole]

When it comes to the dummying down of the TES series I have to agree with Lachdonin's points on loss of a wide range of skills and armor types, minngarm's analysis on weapons follows my thoughts exactly (you know every time Vilja asks me why an axe is treated as blunt I ask myself that same question). I would also agree with nyxalinth's example of Daggerfall's handling of Daedric Prince summoning and DarkGenius' disappointment with the lack of spell crafting and the misuse of telekinesis as valid examples of dummying down of the TES series.

 

There are other things I consider to have been overly simplified, one is Smithing. It is totally baffling how one can wake up one morning and can craft Dwemer armor and weapons? From where does one learn an art that has been lost for thousands of years? As it is Smithing makes no sense at all. Just an overly simplified reaction to the button pushers complaints about repairing arms and armor being too boring. The thing is that once the skill is removed from the game there is no way of modding it to be able to improve it. It's gone or in other words dumbed down.

[JimboUK]

Most of these simplifications are not the fault of console gamers or the hardware, it's Todd "let the player win" Howard and his habit of treating gamers like idiots.

[Element115]

In my opinion i think Skyrim could of been a better game had Todd paid more attention to PC rather then console, do i blame console for it? Not really Todd Howard? Still no. I don't really care what flaws the vanilla Skyrim has because the modding community has always been awesome in fixing issues, addressing problems such as magic, combat, quests, etc etc. If people don't like it then they don't have to download that mod.

 

Everyone seems to be complaining about everything they didn't do, but i mean that's why we have mods???

 

For example i would love to see an xp based leveling system in skyrim, like in oblivion. I would also like to see more perks, more of everything, because rpg's just can't live up to say playing cod4 online for years and still not be bored of it. Your playing with yourself. With the same stuff. Its just like a wife almost. Mod's keep things fresh and new, i replayed oblivion probably 5-6 times and i only beat it once, cause i just had to start over with some new big mod like oblivion xp installed.

 

 

Vindekarr you seem upset. I've had many many people jump ship from console to pc, not one of them has a basic computer. Elitist is a strong word, i think of it more as a word used when someone feels upset or jealous because some idiot needs to boast about his/her pc. I built my own rig, spent quite a bit of money on it, am i going to boast about it? hell yes. Just like anyone would with a new fast car or truck, etc. I don't see why you care so much what other blowhards may say, and the pc name being dragged through the mud?? Man its been beat to death, stabbed, dragged through s***, burned, tortured, long before you ever came along, i think the pc name will survive. You may ask yourself well by who? I believe the developers nowadays are a number 1, simply because they see sales figures and instead of investing time in the community that made them, they would rather see more money in their pockets. The whole terminology of people on xbox that think pc gamers as a whole are all aholes or geeks of some kind. Hackers, whats more to be said, i know console people think pc games are full of hackers, hey at least we can kick them. Finally i think the loudmouths, that need to start these types of forums are probably the biggest trolls of all, isn't pc just so great!

 

So i most likely lean towards the elitist side of pc gaming, but i can't ignore simple facts that so many have stated before me, with no construction kit released yet and no word on dx11. Other titles that simply crushed my spirit for fps gaming such as mw2 blackops and mw3, there just isn't any love for pc gaming by console developers.

[minngarm]

Its a direct effect of the success of the industry, genre, and specific developer.

 

Most games of the last 20 years have followed the simple dogma of all industries, If you find something that works duplicate, duplicate, duplicate. And Skyrim feels just like that, or rather, like the start of the next rendition of it.

 

Skyrim does barrow well from the previous TES games, mostly in the rich background already established by the previous games. It does also bring in influences from other successful games. The result is much the same effect as the full journey through a set of Oreos and Milk.

 

While the initial cookies dipped in milk is absolutely amazing, once you get through them however you find yourself left with a half full glass of crumb filled milk, which is neither tasty nor fun to finish off.

 

The lack of direct changes to faction systems is a bit saddening as this is the same company that put out Fallout New Vegas, which had an amazing faction influence system that had a direct outcome on the end of the game. Now while that exact pattern may not fit into Skryim itself, you can do similar, and there is some faction effect, for example clearing out a fortress near either a Stormcloak or imperial outpost, they will occupy it afterwards.

 

Now you say no one used the polearms or crossbows, but polearms are my signature weapon for any melee based character. I know I cant be alone in loving pikes, halberds, lances, and the vicious Lochaber.

 

EDIT: on a side note, this is a modding site for PC games, modding the Console versions of these games is ILLEGAL, so why are we even having a discussion about console vs pc opinion on the issues of a cross platform game when this site in its very nature is for PC gamers, not console.

Edited November 25, 2011 by minngarm