Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

Kayyyleb, on 16 Feb 2013 - 11:30, said:

 

RighthandofSithis, on 16 Feb 2013 - 09:24, said:

 

Kayyyleb, on 15 Feb 2013 - 11:12, said:

 

RighthandofSithis, on 15 Feb 2013 - 10:04, said:

 

Kayyyleb, on 15 Feb 2013 - 08:27, said:

 

 

RighthandofSithis, on 15 Feb 2013 - 07:36, said:

 

 

 

kradus, on 14 Feb 2013 - 13:33, said:

 

 

You dont heal a wound by removing your limb. If Cyrodill is taken, the Dominion will have southern access to Hammerfell and Skyrim. There's a reason most legions are in the south. Saying the Redguards beat the Dominion is like saying the Vietname beat the USA. They where still around and powerfull in their own right.

The Thalmor have been pushing for a broken empire, keeping the stormcloak rebelion alive for that purpose. Think about that. Segregate at everyone's peril.

I thought France and Britain became stonger after they left the Roman Empire? I mean, the Franks did have to save Rome's hide on more than one occasion.

 

The Empire is at a point of no return, from my analysis. Saying it will come back and save the day is very optimistic thinking. It has been collapsing for 200 years, and is continueing to do so (at an accellerated rate, look at Skyrim and Cyrodiil, hammerfell left, Morrowind is crap, leaving High Rock as perhaps the only peacful province).

Europe wasn't a picnic after the Roman Empire by any stretch of the imagination. The anarchy left behind a vulnerability to raids and invasions from barbaric native tribes.

So Skyrim should simply collapse with the Empire?

 

The empire is currently going down the gargler. Gang Wars in Cyrodiil, Civil War in Skyrim, severe pirate raids in High Rock, and a very hostile Morrowind (albeit, destroyed), not only make reconstruction near impossible, but they signify an Empire well past its height, and in decline.

 

And lets not forget that the Imperial treasury had been spent following the Great War (evident in the Markarth Incident, can't pay mercenaries, offer them religious freedom [sounds similar to the old Roman tactic of offering land]), and that the Thalmor have inquisitors inside the Empire. What if a great military leader is framed for Talos worship? Look at the potential for corruption.

 

So, in general, should Skyrim remain with the Empire? When the Empire is so poised to collapse, or kneel completly to the Thalmor. In the worst case scenario, independant Skyrim could offer at least some resistance. In the best case scenario (which is not so optimistic), a Skyrim-Hammerfell pact could push the Thalmor into a tight corner.

There is absolutely no evidence to support the repeated claim that Skyrim/Hammerfell can defeat the Thalmor on their own. If anything, evidence is to the contrary. The first Great War was against a combined Imperial Legion made of Nords, Redguards and Imperials and they managed a stalemate. Now you want to pretend that Skyrim with some sort of half-strength Hammerfell ally is gonna take on the Thalmor and win while leaving Cyrodiil to the Thalmor? This is so militarily absurd in so many ways it's not even worth mentioning.

 

The Imperials have no intention of giving in to the Thalmor a second time and they haven't lost their will to fight by any means. During the events of Skyrim the Empire is carefully guarding the border with the Thalmor preparing for the next war. Instead of working with the Empire to crush the Thalmor, Hammerfell abandons ship and decides to fend for itself (which isn't going well for them) while Skyrim is straight up stabbing the Empire in the back. Could you really look me in the eye and tell me that not EXACTLY what the Thalmor want to happen? Divide and conquer is very effective. And those dumb Nords are falling for the Thalmor's plan hook, line and sinker.

 

Sure the Empire's infrastructure is weak and falling apart, but the Legion still represents a key piece on the chessboard for defeating the Thalmor. One that if discarded will almost certainly end in an easy Thalmor victory.

The first Great War was against a weakening and dying Empire, with obviously incompetent leadership. Also, after 25 years, and no evidence of internal conflict (knowing that the Corowns were in the perfect position to assert their traditional dominance), one could make the educated assumption that Hammerfell, with a new generation (perhaps also a high growth rate. Tragedies encourage growth in population) would have been able to rebuild relativly well. Not to mention, trying the same thing and expective different results is the definition of insanity (particularly when the second time, you weaken the Empire signficantly).

 

Also, if we are talking about tactics, look at the battlefield in a Skyrim-Hammerfell scenario. It looks to me that, based on Tamriel's geography, the Aldmeri would be backed into a corner (with Skyrim in the north, and HAmmerfell in the west, their only option would be retreat, or fight a war in a boxed in position [Cannae comes to mind]). Also, I think you are underestimating Skyrim's natural defensability. Treacherous mountain passes, hostile enviroment, hardy and warlike people etc etc.

 

I have still not seen a reliable account for the numbers of the legion. Tullius may say the Empire is preparing for a war, but when you look at the troubles it has faced, can we be sure it effectivly has? Also, the DOminion admits it must avoid a Stormcloak victory, I mean, didn't the US want Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets?

 

Also, are you implying that a people should be forced to carry the burdens of a dying Empire?

 

The Legion may be an effective fighting fore, but without an Economy, it will collapse with the Empire.

I like how you can go from bashing the Empire for a weak economy but somehow claim Hammerfell can support a war against the Thalmor with half its territory occupied and in a severely weakened condition. You are committing a rather blatant double standard when you claim the Empire can't fight off the Thalmor but an even weaker Hammerfell can. Geography is going to help the Thalmor even more without the Empire than with it and how you can't see this I can't fathom. They get to fight smaller scale more focused wars in far better defensive positions with Cyrodiil under their control. The Thalmor can bottle up the Nords in their own mountain passes and focus the majority of their army on crushing whatever is left of Hammerfell then set their sights on Skyrim bring their full strength to bear. Skyrim vs the Thalmor with the resources from 2/3 of Tamriel will take nothing short of an utter miracle to save Skyrim.

 

While the Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks to ultimately win the war (in the interest of enforcing the Concordat most likely) they make no secret that they want the war to drag on for years so that both Skyrim and the Empire are weakened significantly so they can be completely uncontested in dominating all Tamriel. Hammerfell will never defeat the Thalmor on their own. But Skyrim will never defeat the Thalmor on their own either. Three provinces against one is extremely poor odds.

 

Throwing out the Empire is a fatal mistake. It's not a matter of carrying the burdens of the Empire, it's a matter of being strategically realistic instead of falsely optimistic. If Skyrim wants to secede, then they can pick a better time than killing potential allies right when they will need them most. The Stormcloak rebellion is ill-conceived and short-sighted.

Hammerfell beat the Thalmor around 4E 180. So, as I said, that is around 20 years, with no evidence of revolt and a new generation. So, there was a large flaw in that argument.

Quote

 

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a

standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left

southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that

the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept

his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined

forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that

assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not

forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.

-The Great War, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_%28book%29

 

Also, Cyrodiil, unless it somehow remains completly in tact, will collapse to its neighbours. Bruma, Chorrol and CHeydinhal would be taken by Skyrim (And hammerfell), Leyawiin, bravil and Skingrad to the Dominion, and Anvil and Kvtach will become the focal point of the next war (Judging by geography). So my point remains, the Dominion are boxed in.

 

But still, the Empire is not capable of sustaining a war of such severity. It is rather clear to me, that the Empire is dying. Skyrim in the midst of Civil war, Morrowind ruined, and uncooperative, Cyrodiil torn apart by war, and then drug wars, and even staunch Imperial supporters (such as Rikke, and Brina Merilis) stating the Empire is overstretched and facing severe issues.

 

As i said, the EMpire is poised to collapse, or to kneel before the Thalmor. This is why an independant Skyrim is the better option.

Edited February 16, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Drakescale]

That depends on the perspective of the ones in conflict. Ulfric were simply trying to replicate what Hammerfell did but the difference was the Empire came down on them instead of the Thalmor. But were Hammerfell's decision to risk civil war also ill-conceived? I think not. Ulfric just lost his bet. Everything started with the Empire, esp TM2. The WCG was a double edged sword by itself. In forcing Hammerfell to seceed land and Skyrim its faith, it would've backfired on the Thalmor had TM2 clever enough to exploit it. But look on the bright side, if things didn't go accordingly, the prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled and we wouldn't have TES5:Skyrim. *smirk*

[Njorunn]

I see lots of people here complaining about Ulfric being a rotten tomato and seem to have forgotten that the Empire is apparently mostly run by rotten tomatoes as well.

 

I remember doing the Synod-questline from the Mages college in Winterhold and how you find out that the Empire is run by corrupted nobles - which also is a reason the Synod is sent out to collect powerful magic artifacts in the first place - to consolidate the power of the court.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Empire is WAY to weak to pull off another war with the AD.

 

Considering the Emperor gets assassinated it also means there will be a power vacuum in the Empire. Bethesda's intention is that to where your character never actually gains power in his or her own rite. So that blows the whole idea of "You will just take the throne and declare war on the thalmor" out the window.

 

The Empire's only good legion is currently in Skyrim killing or rather trying to kill the very people it was meant to protect.

 

If the Empire was smart they would have allowed for Skyrim to secede and had the foresight to think "With Skyrim being independent the Nords WILL fight the AD and weaken them if not defeat them and if not then simultaneously We as the Empire can wage war against them with the shell of our legions." But no TMII doesnt see Skyrim as a province of people he sees it as a power. A power he can use at his own means for whatever he chooses. The Stormcloaks prove that Skyrim isnt just a province of tools. They are people who have hearts and minds.

 

Hammerfell got f*cked by the Empire. Raped and left for the wolves. Wolves being the AD. Hammerfell stood up on its own two feet and fought another war for itself this time. Fought them to, yes, a stalemate but a stalemate that made them withdraw from Hammerfell completely.

 

That may not mean that the AD will not attempt another invasion but it does mean a temporary victory for Hammerfell.

 

 

You referred to this as a civil war

 

 

 

by definition Empire's can't have civil wars, as by Definition an Empire is a central state and it's vassal states, whereas a civil war is defined by a power struggle within a state itself.

 

 

 

The British Empire was an Empire because it had it's central State ( England, and after time the United Kingdom ) and it's vassal states ( at it's height Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the West African Coast ).

 

 

 

The Roman Empire was an Empire. The central State being the Roman Province, and the Varied states under it's control, at one point consisting of Espana, Gaul Britian, Africana ( North Africa ) Parthia, Scythia, Judea, and others.

 

 

 

What is distinctive about a nation and an Empire is this, a nation has political entities within it that represent themselves to the nation, and empire has political entities that represent the empire.

 

 

 

For example, the Duke of York represents York to the United Kingdom, the Raj of India represents the United Kingdom to India. See the difference?

 

 

 

Now there is no doubt that in The Empire in Tamriel that it is in fact an Empire, so this by definition isn't a civil war, it's a rebellion. The desire of the people of Skyrim is to overthrow the Imperial power represented in this case by General Tullius and thus return itself to a state of self-reliance. If this was a civil war, say the US civil war, it would be the representatives of Skyrim withdrawing their representation to the Empire from the Empire. Skyrim has -no- representation to the Empire. It's not like the Senator from Skyrim declared itself independent then walked out, there isn't anyone in The Imperial City that was elected or appointed by the people of Skyrim to represent it's interests, and there never was. That's just a fact.

 

 

 

To call this a civil war is rather ungracious to the people of Skyrim, as they were never on an equal footing with Cyrodil when it came to the politics of the Empire, if the Empire truly wanted to keep Skyrim they could have pursued a policy something like the British Commonwealth, where the individual aspects of the Commonwealth determined their own destiny with the one exception of who their Head of State was. For example in New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, each nation determines it's own destiny, the only thing holding them together being the Head of State, who is the Queen of the United Kingdom. This is not the case here

 

 

 

So this is a rebellion, with the overall goal being to create a nation independent of the Cyrodillian Dominated Empire. This puts quite a different outlook on the whole situation in this one way. A Rebellion is an attempt to earn by whatever means, whether it's Gandhi and his approach of non-violence ( which only worked because the people in the UK had at that time a strong value for the idea of Justice ) or violence ( which is more or less the only way to go about it with the Empire, because it's apparent just by signing the WGC that the Empire has very little if any respect for the idea of Justice ). If we're going to all agree that Skyrim has at least -some- right to determine it's own place in the world, if we're going to assume that the Nords are of themselves a people who deserve the right to determine their own destiny, then really they've been backed into a corner where they either lose their right to exist as an independent people, with their own culture and heritage, or they fight. It's as simple as that.

 

 

 

It never had to be that way, I've pointed out at least two dozen ways it could have been different, but it wasn't the case and that is how we find ourselves where we are today. It began with the WGC ( which benefited no one except Cyrodil, this is pretty clear. The only territories that were recovered in it were in the Nation of Cyrodil itself, the vassal nations for the most part all caught it in the shorts ) and as a result little choice was left but to make one of two choices, either give in and bow to the will of the Imperials and loose your cultural identity, or fight. Since non-violent resistance to the Imperials was futile, violent resistance was the only option to those who would hold onto their cultural identity. The first were the Redguards, now we have the Nords, and it's as simple as that.

 

 

 

The question of course is, whether it is right or wrong for a people to fight for their right to hold onto their own identity. A person can make all the arguments they want about any other issue, but if you do not address this issue. If a person is unable to say I'm pro-Imperial and as such I agree that it is wrong for -any- group to fight for it's right to fight to protect it's own culture ( I'm not just talking about Nords here, I'm talking about anyone. If you say it isn't right for Skyrim, then it wasn't right for Hammerfell either, and should this game have taken place in High Rock, or Orsinium ( orc place it's early for me and I can't remember the name ) that it isn't right for the Orcs or the Bretons either. Essentially you have to come right out and say " It isn't right for anyone to be anything but what the Imperials want them to be ) If you can't agree to that, then you -can't- be pro-Imperial, because being pro-Imperial means that you are -exactly- that, you can't have one without the other. It would be like saying I'm for with the United Nations so long as everyone acts like they are Americans. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

So here's the deal for the pro-Imperial folks, you simply cannot single out the Nords ( claims of racism, etc, don't care it may be -all- true but it doesn't matter, if you want them to change and accept Imperial dictate and thus stop fighting for their culture and land, then you have to do the same for every other Imperial citizen regardless of Race. Stop worshiping your Gods Mr. Orc because frankly it's not what the Imperials do and they said the Nords shouldn't do it, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it either ) I get really tired of people talking about Nord this and Nord that, because it isn't about the Nords it's about whether or not people have the right to fight for their culture and land.

 

 

 

Little has been said about whether or not Hammerfell has the right too, it did, and it won, and since it's over no one really gives it much thought. However what they did was rebel ( it's even called the Hammerfell rebellion in the lore, hell I think you can find a book in the game called exactly that ). So it comes down to this, the Nords either have a right to fight ( not even to necessarily succeed, but a right to fight ) for their culture and homes, or they don't. If you're pro-Imperial you believe they don't, because that's what the Imperials say, you can't half-measure it and say " Well they have the right to fight, but unfortunately if they succeed this or that will happen so we can't allow them too " if you're pro-Imperial then follow the Imperial line.

 

 

 

I think that's what I find most infuriating with pro-Imp's honestly you want to divide up the pro-Imp party line. With the pro-Stormcloaks we might say " No we don't agree 100% with Ulfric's attitude, no we don't agree 100% with this or that aspect of the way the war was conducted ( Siege of Whiterun for example ) but the one thing we can -all- say is we agree in the cause. We agree that Nords are a race with their own culture, their own traditions, their own religion, and their own lands, and that they have a right to fight for them. " This solidifies the pro-Storm side. The pro-Imp side is all over the map with it's opinions on to -why- they are pro-Imp but they never come out and say they toe the party line and say " No, we do not agree that the Nords have a right to rebel, even if it is to protect their culture, religion, traditions, and land." and I'm sorry Pro-Imp's no matter what way you try to rectify it ( It's one of the reason I feel for Rikke, the Battle-Born's, Balgruuf and the list goes on ) once the WGC was signed, the Nord way of life was under attack. Hell if you go with the Imperial guy out of Helgen one of the things his Uncle says right off the bat is " There was a time when everyone home had their little statue of Talos and then the Thalmor came etc etc " essentially what he's saying there is this " There was a time when we were allowed to practice our culture in peace, but after the WGC was signed the Empire invited the Thalmor in and they denied us this aspect of our culture "

 

 

 

That's pretty much as clear an attack on someone's culture as I've ever seen, the classic " conversion at the end of the sword " aspect of Crusader fame. It's hard to get a clearer attack on a people's culture and heritage than when people kill you for following it.

 

 

 

So here's the deal, I'll accept -anyone- who wants to be pro-Imp so long as they say, straight up and no BS surrounding it " I agree that it is necessary to attack and destroy the culture of the Nords or -anyone else- to preserve the Empire, and that the Nords do not in fact have a right to fight to protect their culture, and if they do fight to protect their culture I will kill them " If you can come right out and say that, flat out, then I'll go " OK, you're pro-Imp, and as much as I disagree with you, I'll accept that about you " you can then proceed from there to give all your reasons why you think it's the best path, and I'll listen to them.

 

 

 

If you won't admit to the above though, I really am not interested your reasons likewise if you're on the pro-Storm side and you're not willing to say " I believe that a person has the right to fight and kill to protect it's traditions and culture, including slaughtering those who may not have a stake in the fight should they get in my way, that I believe that a right of a people to protect their heritage is paramount to all other considerations, and regardless of the cost, is worth the cost. Including things that individually I find repugnant " I don't buy your pro-Storm arguments and I don't want to hear the reasons why.

 

 

 

War is -not- pretty, and that's just a fact, so I'll come out and say it.

 

 

 

I don't like it, but I see it as necessary, for Whiterun to be sacked, with all the horror that comes to a city when it's walls are breached and soldiers storm into the streets filled with civilians.

 

 

 

I don't like it, but I see it as necessary, to support the most effective war leader that steps forward regardless of their own personal faults in other areas. Since Ulfric is that person, I accept his racism, his ambition no how bloody, and any other negative aspect of his personality. I would have supported William Wallace too, and this is a guy that History has recorded as literally skinning the men he killed and then tanning that skin and making it into a belt. This is historical fact, and I'd have followed a guy who wore human-skin belts. Ulfric isn't that bad relatively.

 

 

 

I don't like it, but I accept -anything- short of denying another people the right to their own culture by force of arms that is necessary to protect the Nords heritage and culture. No matter how bad it is. The right of the Nords to defend their own culture and heritage supersedes all else in Skyrim.

 

 

 

There I've said it, I've taken the pledge, I'm a Stormcloak. Now let's see the pro-Imp people say the same, as I've listed above. I want to see pro-Imp's say " No, Nords do not have a right to their culture and heritage " If I don't see it, I'm not interested in their reasons for being pro-Imp because frankly they've missed the boat. There are certain things that you have to be before you can claim to be from a group. I'm not black so I'm not a member of the Black Panthers, because I miss one of the big requirements in belonging to that group ( just an example, for god's sake no one give me an opinion on what they think of that statement, I truly don't care ). So whatever your argument is for being pro-Imp I want people to own up to the very -basics- of being pro-Imp before they go on with the rest of their reasons.

 

 

 

If you can't accept the basics I'm not interested in the abstract, and for the longest time now I've had to go " Well I accept both the basics and the more personal reasons to be a Stormcloak " and had to defend that position from the " Well I can see all the reasons not to be pro-Imp but there is -this particular- reason to be pro-Imp and that's why I am ". It simply isn't a fair fight for us Stormcloaks to have to defend our positions while accepting all the negative aspects that come along with it from Imperials who only give one reason for being Imperial but don't jump in with all the negative parts of being an Imperial.

 

 

 

It's one reason I retired from this forum, because I started getting really frustrated with people not willing to go " I'm an Imperial and I'm proud of it! Down with Nordic culture and identity! " because if you don't believe that, if you don't think that's the best thing, then frankly you're an Imperial on paper only. You may regret the necessity for it, but it's come to that. To be an Imperial is to stand against the Nords right to fight for their culture and traditions, and if you think it's not then you don't understand what's happening in Skyrim. What did you think if the Imperials won then all the reasons the Nords rebelled in the first place would go away? That all of a sudden the Imperials would go " Well, now that we've won let's give you all the things you were fighting for in the first place ". Bleh.

 

 

 

So let's hear it from the Imperials, write your belief that you think the Nords shouldn't be allowed to fight for their culture and traditions, write that you believe that if necessary the Nordic traditions and culture should be destroyed in order to preserve the empire, because if you don't think that, then you aren't an Imperial. The key words being " if necessary " because you're halfway there by siding with the Imperials, because if you're willing to fight against their right to rebel in defense of their culture and traditions, the next step -could- be to eradicate that culture and those traditions, because why not, after all if you fight against their right to fight for it, you might as well fight to destroy it all together.

 

 

 

Just accept that that's what you're fighting against, you're looking a Nord in the eye and saying " No, you don't have the right to fight for this " you can add your " and here's why " after that, but if you don't begin your sentence with that, I'm just not interested in what comes after.

 

 

 

Listen, I'm tired and it's not even noon now, and I've been harsh in this post but frankly I'm so very very very tired of going over the same damn ground over and over again. I'm a Stormcloak, yes, and I accept the downsides of taking that path.

 

 

 

The Imperials by and large however -never- own up to the downsides. They aren't willing to admit the horror they bring to the table, but are really quick to bring up all the negative things that being a Stormcloak means. Well here's the negative thing about being an Imperial, you're fighting against people's right to have their own culture and traditions. You're -oppressing- people, you're telling them they don't have a right to their traditions and culture. That's a -fact-, whatever else may be a " good " thing about being an Imperial, you first and foremost have to admit to yourself and to the world that you're first and foremost an oppressor. That's just a simple fact, and if an Imperial can't own up to that, I'm just not going to discuss anything else with them, I'm too tired to do so, as I said before I retired from this thread ( and took a hiatus from the game even ) due to in part having to argue my points from the position of a Stormcloak who accepts that all isn't shiny and righteous in my camp, but the people who argued against me liked to pretend it -was- all shiny and pretty in theirs.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[kradus]

The persintent and voluntary ignorance here never fails to blow my mind.
The empire is dying? Then, why would breaking it appart and leave a weakened cyrodill for the Thalmor be a good idea? Cyrodill is the hearth of tamriel, it separates hammerfell and skyrim from Valenwood and Elsweyr, so if the Dominion holds it, they'll have the tactical advantage, especially since they can invade Hammerfell and HighRock by sea. You'd also be giving up all Cyrodillic soldiers for any future campaigns, and unlike ^ said, Most legions are stationed in Cyrodill, the one in skyrim is just a fraction of what the empire has. Thats also the reason the stormcloaks haven't been defeated yet.
You falsely acuse the empire of poor leadership, when unlike a certain someone, they actually put some brain into their decisions. Sending more legions to skyrim means weakening the border against the Dominion, and it would be seriously stupid to let the Dominion walk in and pillage again. By the way, the empire was winnigng before the dragons came in.
And the only thing that's making the empire sick, is the stormcloak rebelion. That's the kind of thing that weakens the millitary and economy. Cyrodill, once the wealthiest land in the empire, suffered great loses in the great war, but that's thalmor doing. Without rebelion the empire can only grow stronger, not weaker.
These are some of huge fallacies born from a void of arguments by people desperatly trying to justify their attraction for the braveheart rebel stereotype. I mean, grow up, shut up, and look at the circunstances at which the civil war started.
It's no secret that Elenwhen tortured Ulfric, and released him after his father died, and he became Jarl. Knowing that, you're all as much Thalmor puppets as he is, falling prey to your own emotions.

Ulfric is not the best military leader by any means, he fell into Tulliu's ambush, and decided to fight a war that ultimately will bring the destruction of his own people by thalmor hands. The argument is right there, stop ignoring the obvious. You can fight for your people, but fight your actual enemy, not your only allies.

As far as imperial opression goes, it was the WTG concordat that bought the empire time to rebuild. If not for that, stormcloaks wouldn't even have had a chance to rebell. If you chose death over a bad peace, that's your problem, but makig that choice for all mankind makes you either dumb or mad. And if stormcloaks are so appaled by opressors, why are you following one? Or are you going to ignore Ulfric's deeds as well? The same goes for tradition, "Damn the moot!", sounds familiar? Most nords and Jarls don't want Ulfric for a king, knowing this, he starts a war to replace the Jarls and manipulate tradition for his own aims, rather than accept the decision of the majority.

Edited February 16, 2013 by kradus

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Empire IS full of terrible leadership. Theres no arguing that. Im going to attack you personally. If you think its okay to subject your people to the will of a tyrannical government even temporarily then your obviously not human.

The Empire is dead. The Empire was notably weaker immediately after the Mede's took over.

TMII gave into the Thalmor once and forced the suffering of his people. He sold Hammerfell out to the very people he saw as enemies not too long ago.

It becomes a power vacuum in the Empire after you kill the Emperor. Dont give the sh*t of trying to say "The Dragonborn becomes Emperor" because thats a plain lie. Bethesda never gives the throne to the TES character. Its there way of doing it.



You referred to this as a civil war



by definition Empire's can't have civil wars, as by Definition an Empire is a central state and it's vassal states, whereas a civil war is defined by a power struggle within a state itself.



The British Empire was an Empire because it had it's central State ( England, and after time the United Kingdom ) and it's vassal states ( at it's height Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the West African Coast ).



The Roman Empire was an Empire. The central State being the Roman Province, and the Varied states under it's control, at one point consisting of Espana, Gaul Britian, Africana ( North Africa ) Parthia, Scythia, Judea, and others.



What is distinctive about a nation and an Empire is this, a nation has political entities within it that represent themselves to the nation, and empire has political entities that represent the empire.



For example, the Duke of York represents York to the United Kingdom, the Raj of India represents the United Kingdom to India. See the difference?



Now there is no doubt that in The Empire in Tamriel that it is in fact an Empire, so this by definition isn't a civil war, it's a rebellion. The desire of the people of Skyrim is to overthrow the Imperial power represented in this case by General Tullius and thus return itself to a state of self-reliance. If this was a civil war, say the US civil war, it would be the representatives of Skyrim withdrawing their representation to the Empire from the Empire. Skyrim has -no- representation to the Empire. It's not like the Senator from Skyrim declared itself independent then walked out, there isn't anyone in The Imperial City that was elected or appointed by the people of Skyrim to represent it's interests, and there never was. That's just a fact.



To call this a civil war is rather ungracious to the people of Skyrim, as they were never on an equal footing with Cyrodil when it came to the politics of the Empire, if the Empire truly wanted to keep Skyrim they could have pursued a policy something like the British Commonwealth, where the individual aspects of the Commonwealth determined their own destiny with the one exception of who their Head of State was. For example in New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, each nation determines it's own destiny, the only thing holding them together being the Head of State, who is the Queen of the United Kingdom. This is not the case here



So this is a rebellion, with the overall goal being to create a nation independent of the Cyrodillian Dominated Empire. This puts quite a different outlook on the whole situation in this one way. A Rebellion is an attempt to earn by whatever means, whether it's Gandhi and his approach of non-violence ( which only worked because the people in the UK had at that time a strong value for the idea of Justice ) or violence ( which is more or less the only way to go about it with the Empire, because it's apparent just by signing the WGC that the Empire has very little if any respect for the idea of Justice ). If we're going to all agree that Skyrim has at least -some- right to determine it's own place in the world, if we're going to assume that the Nords are of themselves a people who deserve the right to determine their own destiny, then really they've been backed into a corner where they either lose their right to exist as an independent people, with their own culture and heritage, or they fight. It's as simple as that.
Im sick of people not realizing that the Empire lost 4 legions in the great war. 3 were total losses and the only semi intact legion is currently in Skyrim. IT CONSISTS OF NORDS! It also lost the Redguard legions too!

It has been 20-30 years since the great war and in the game you notice people leaving Cyrodil to escape the fighting and poverty. Obviously things have not gotten better. So theres goes the whole "It can only get stronger."

First you must fight your lesser self before you can vanquish your enemy. It will only hinder your attempts if you leave it be. The Empire is no more. The Septim Empire is gone. This is the Mede dynasty. Your fighting for the Medes. They are the worst set of Emperors in the history of Tamriel. Particularly TMII. Ulfric isnt perfect but he's more willing to fight the Elves than anyone else.

The Empire keeps it a secret that they want to go to war with the AD. The Stormcloaks shout it out on a daily basis. They arent cowards like the Imperials.

Like I said. Im willing to accept the downsides of being a Stormcloak. There will be suffering for the Nords but in the end we decide our fate.

The Imperials only like to point out the bad things about being a Stormcloak, very few reasons why its not the best choice, but arent willing to swallow the truth about there own camp. Own up to it. Own up to your blunders and downsides.

Ulfric says "Damn the Moot" out of frustration which makes perfect sense to me. He IS a Nord. He DOES respect the ways of his people. In the End of the Game he leaves it up to the Moot to decide who will be the Next High King. He knows they will elect him but he still allows for tradition to take place.

Ulfric is not an oppressor. He fights for his people. He is not invading a people's homeland and demanding that they fight for him and not worship their god. Not be allowed to voice their tradition.

The legion also doesnt just work on its own. It has to follow the Empire wherever. Now there is a power struggle in Cyrodil. The Legion just lost its commander.

Also the rights of human beings is what gives the Stormcloaks reason to Rebel. They are rebelling because they should. The Imperials are invading their land and forcing Imperial rule on them. Allowing the Thalmor to kill them as they see fit. That right there undermines that only way for the legion to gain strength.

Like I said before. Own up to your own f*cking faults first.

Ulfric isnt the most perfect leader. I accept that. There will be hardships the Nords will have to face (War being the hardship not religious oppression) I accept that. I accept that other races will be seen as potential spies. I accept that.

But that fact remains. It isnt okay to deal with a tyrannical government even for a short time. Its evil and theres no way around it. If the WGC was meant to preserve the Empire than maybe they should have read it aloud to its people first. Maybe they did, I could be wrong on that account. But I know im right when I say its the best choice for Skyrim to be independent.

The WGC did not keep the AD out of Skyrim. The Nordic legions were willing to continue into Alinor and defeat the AD completely. But TMII said "No, we took back the land we lost. Lets stop and oppress our own people for a while. Then in 20-30 years we will demand they fight for us again and make them leave their homelands and die for us after we f*cked them. I'll also be dead by this time so we will have to pray that the next dictator will try this too."

It is illegally occupying Skyrim and forcing the people to their rule and ways of life. When you side with the Stormcloaks your fighting to preserve the Nordic ways of life. Thats plain and obvious.


Always remember that when the Imperial City was sacked it was Redguards and Nords who marched to take it back, not Imperials. It was the Redguard and Nord Legions that left their home to save the Empire. They left their lands in the hands of militias ( the Al'kir in Hammerfell and the
Stormcloaks in Skyrim ) to come to a land that wasn't technically their own to save a city that they weren't really welcome in ( Anyone else remember the way that Redguards and Nords were treated in Cyrodil in Oblivion? I sure do ). So what thanks did they get?





1) The Emperor tried to give half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, the Redguards said f*** off, seceded, fought another five years, and beat the Thalmor


2) The Emperor gave the Thalmor the right to Police the Empire ( especially Skyrim ) hauling off his subjects without appeal to Imperial Law


3) The Emperor banned the worship of the Founder of the Empire, and a Nord to boot.





So essentially he was saved by two groups of people, who he immediately turned on when things got a little rough.





The Mede's are a pathetic imitation of the greatness that the Septim's used to be. The Empire is dead, whether you side with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor one the second that the Emperor turned his back on his subjects. What point is the Empire if it can't protect its people, so people can side with the Imperials if they want, they can delude themselves into thinking that the Imperials can defeat the Thalmor if everyone just sticks together.





Reality is that they can't. Not because they don't have the men, or the strategy, they don't have the will. They didn't have the will to tell the Thalmor to go blow it out their royal elven assholes, and they never will, not while the Mede's are in charge, and essentially sink the Empire itself into another civil war ( like the one that brought the Mede's to power in the first place ) which would suit me just fine honestly.





The Redguards defeated the Thalmor by themselves, Skyrim could too, they both have done so before while fighting -for- the Empire, I don't see why they couldn't while fighting for themselves. Hell they could even create a military alliance to take on the Thalmor till they were destroyed, wouldn't hurt anything for them to team up for a bit, since between the two of them they're more than powerful enough so long as Cyrodil isn't holding them back and taking all their best warriors to use defending places other than Skyrim and Hammerfell.





HighRock has more or less allied itself with the Thalmor anyway, which kinda puts the Orcs in a bad way, since they're a long way away from any Imperial help and the Nords, Redguards, and Bretons have all destroyed Orsinium at one point or another, and to get imperial help they'd either have to march through Hammerfell, Skyrim, or land ships at HighRock. All of which would involve a long trek through hostile waters or lands. The smartest thing for the Orcs to do would be to secede themselves, declare a sort of “neutrality " in the 15th century Swiss Sense, in that they'll export Mercenaries to either Hammerfell or to Skyrim so long as neither attacks Orsinium itself. Since it's equally beneficial to both Hammerfell and Skyrim to have access to Orcish Mercenaries, and that it would unify the Orcs and the other side, if one side broke the neutrality, it would
be a mutual benefit for everyone, except of course the Bretons of HighRock.





Hammerfell and Skyrim might as well sign a deal to split HighRock between themselves, that place hasn't been anything but trouble for either for 400 years, sounds harsh but it's true. Also secures the north which allows Skyrim to protect its South from any Imperial Nonsense and it's East from Argonian and possibly Dunmer Aggression, goaded on by the Thalmor ( who have deep claws in both societies ) while at the same time freeing up Skyrim's rather impressive Navy ( read the wiki's Skyrim and Hammerfell supply nearly all of the Imperial Navy. When Hammerfell seceded it took about half the Navy with it ), since Hammerfell simply cannot be ignored from its position North of Valenwood and the Kingdoms that used to be Elsywer nor even that far from the Summerset Isles themselves, the Thalmor would be thrown on the defensive at sea, to the north... and to the south.





Ports along Valenwood would burn, and Redguard Naval vessels would attack any weakened naval positions north of Summerset Isles, conceivably they themselves blockading Alinor, and that's just the situation on Sea.





Should Skyrim attack from the South at any time with just its Navy, it gives the Redguards a more or less free hand to strike west into what's left of the Empire, or strike south into Valenwood, or both. Taking Northern Valenwood would take most of the ports of that Nation, leaving Thalmor troops without a means of supplies without invading Cyrodil again. That alone might be enough for the puppet Colovian Dynasty in Valenwood to be overthrown by the Bosmer, since they hate it almost as much as they hate the Empire for abandoning them in the first place. A negotiated peace (perhaps something even as a territorial trade in exchange for Military support. Bosmer joining the fight against the Summerset Isles in exchange for their ports back, for trading purposes at the beginning of course) plus thousands of Thalmor prisoners.





The next step of course would be either a Nord, or a Redguard invasion of the Isles themselves, and both have more than enough reason to do so. Hate is a strong motivator and both hate them with a passion. All this could come to pass if just -one- of the two nations of either Skyrim or Hammerfell were to take the fight to the Thalmor with the other acting as they would almost certainly do. An organized offensive between the two would crush the Isles like a bear trap.





So who needs the Imperials again?





Likely after the Thalmor are made to pay (and dearly ) by the people they wronged so horribly ( the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards ) the three groups would turn home and begin their own expansions. Hammerfell likely into Cyrodil, Skyrim into Argonia, and Valenwood into Elsywer. All territories that the three races have been eyeing for some time. Of course this is hard luck on the Imperials, Khajiit, Argonians, and Dunmer (It wouldn't be Hard luck on the Altmer, they had it coming ) but honestly all those groups have done the first three very wrong in the past. It shouldn't really surprise them that they get paid back now. The Dunmer might even make their own play to take, and then hold onto and found, a new Dunmer country in eastern Cyrodil. Which considering how they play it diplomatically, might succeed. Reorganize the Council with more progressive houses. Offer Military alliances to the new " big three " and attack Argonia and Cyrodil, both of which the Dunmer have truly been betrayed by, and dishonorably so ( and the Dunmer are big on their honor, enough so that even Ulfric respect their sense of Honor, if not them themselves ). That could secure them a place, though not a huge one, in a Tamriel future.





The truly doomed races, at least if you play as a Stormcloaks, are the Bretons, High Elves, Imperials, Argonians, and Khajiit. The only one of which I truly feel sorry for are the Khajiit, who aside from some relatively small wars with Valenwood, really haven't bothered anyone too terribly much. The others really, really have it coming (some might argue the Bretons don't, look em up, they're almost as bad as the High Elves, and worse than the Imperials)





The map would get Carved up anyway, with perhaps Cyrodil shrunk to just the Imperial city and it's outlying farmland. I doubt any group would truly seize the city as to do so would be to declare themselves de facto the new Emperor of Tamriel, something that would almost inevitably lead to a massive war between the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards. Something none of those three races wants, and honestly none of those races are greedy enough to want it. Greed isn't really in the nature of any of those groups, not saying they won't bargain for what they can get, but the reality is that force of arms for them is more a matter of honor ( and payback ) than for conquest overall, at least in this point of their history.





Essentially what I'm saying is that supporting the Empire in TES V is a little bit like making an ugly girl prom queen ( I didn't go to prom, no idea what happens to make a prom queen, so don't hate on me too much for that statement ) it makes no sense. Everyone knows the tiara doesn't make her pretty, it's just an ugly girl with a crown on her head, and that's the Empire in this day and age. An ugly girl with a crown on it's head.





Don't date the crowned ugly girl, date the poor girl with the cool accent, who likes video games and skips prom to play World of Warcraft. You can guarantee that she'll have at least looked up some interesting bedroom techniques online at one point or another.





The sum up again is: Don't date the crowned ugly chick.

I know I recopied my own argument but its still correct. Ill do it 100 times if I have to. I have 30 Word documents ready for anything that anyone has to say.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[sajuukkhar9000]

Considering the Emperor gets assassinated it also means there will be a power vacuum in the Empire. Bethesda's intention is that to where your character never actually gains power in his or her own rite. So that blows the whole idea of "You will just take the throne and declare war on the thalmor" out the window.

 

Hammerfell got f*cked by the Empire. Raped and left for the wolves. Wolves being the AD. Hammerfell stood up on its own two feet and fought another war for itself this time. Fought them to, yes, a stalemate but a stalemate that made them withdraw from Hammerfell completely.

 

 

 

Actually, The Emperor getting assassinated actually is more beneficial then it is detrimental. Now a very high profile Anti-Thalmor noble can rise to the rank of Emperor, and turn the anti-thalmor sentaments of the people into a powerful weapon in the next grea war.

 

 

Also, Hammerfell was actually saved by The Empire. The Empire didn't have the resources to fight the AD to defeat in another great war so soon, and Hammerfell being let go allowed the Redguards to fight the AD to a stalement, thus giving them a back eye. Had The Empire NOT let them go, the second great war would have started far too early for anyone to be able to win, besides the AD.

 

Hammerfell being let go was probably one of the single best moves Titus Mede could have done, not only did it free the Redguards to punch the AD in the face, but it prevented another Great War from starting, and prevented the AD from attacking either Hammerfell, or the Empire in full force, when neither were ready for a full war.

 

Anyone who says that Titus Mede left Hammerfell to the wovles understand nothing of the siutation at the time.

[fraquar]

The situations that occur in the game don't support the kind of "covert" political sham that the Empire supposedly perpetrated by "allowing" Hammerfell to do the Empire's dirty work. This is an Empire that is willingly allowing the Thalmor to set up torture camps in Imperial territories and torture their own constituents. Edited February 16, 2013 by fraquar

[sajuukkhar9000]

Except many NPCs in the game mention that The Thalmor WEREN'T doing that until Ulfric came along and starting throwing a temper tantrum.

The Empire had actually gotten The Thalmor into a relative pigeonhole of them not actually being able to enforce the WGC, and it was only because of Ulfric's uprising that The Thalmor were given a chance to exploit the treaty, and actually be able to do that.

Edited February 16, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The situations that occur in the game don't support the kind of "covert" political sham that the Empire supposedly perpetrated by "allowing" Hammerfell to do the Empire's dirty work. This is an Empire that is willingly allowing the Thalmor to set up torture camps in Imperial territories and torture their own constituents.

Your exactly right. Im using the info provided about Hammerfell and other things only to add to my argument. I really dont even NEED them considering the atrocities the Empire is allowing the Thalmor to commit is enough argument to prove the Stormcloaks are right.

 

In the End yes it was better for the Empire to attempt to sell Hammerfell because it gave them reason to leave a collapsing Empire. But that doesnt excuse the treatment.

 

The Empire screwed its citizens over and thats plain to see.

 

Armound Mottiere or whatever his name is isnt "A Strong Anti-Thalmor" person. The Empire is full of Nobles who would rather worry about their own ambition and power rather than attempt another war with the Thalmor. They are weak "Milk Drinkers" who don't give two sh*ts about the Empire. Thats a fact. I have not once seen proof of a Noble who would see to the destruction of the AD ( a noble in the Empire that is)

 

The empire is done for. They hit the Self Destruct Button when they signed the WGC.

 

I also havent seen any "Pro Imperial" own up to the Downsides of being an Imperial. You say "Oh the Stormcloaks are traitors! And Hammerfell is the empires friend." And Sh*t like that. OWN UP.

 

We Stormcloaks have. We have our cause and we hold to it. The Empire has no cause. The Citizens of Cyrodil live in fear everyday and the Citizens of Skyrim dont have to. Not with The Stormcloaks in Power.

 

You never leave "Your" people to HAVE to fight by themselves if you can help it. The Empire couldnt help it, yes that much is true. But thats not a good excuse. By any means.

 

The Nords WILL fight. The Empire -may-

Edited February 16, 2013 by Stormcloak117