Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Firstly, 400 posts on my part. Not sure why anyone cares but whatever.

 

On to business. The Empire, unlike the Dominion, has two borders with Skyrim, meaning it does not need to occupy a province and maintain supply lines to invade Skyrim again. Similarly, as most of Ulfrics forces would be committed to Haffingar, Pale Pass would probably be relatively lightly manned (in comparison to what it could be). Similarly, the death of the Emporer is implied (or so I'd imagine) to actually enrage the entire population of Cyrodiil. That said, I have no idea what the Cyrodiilic psyche would be like at the moment, with the presumed economic depression and gang wars (they could very probably be war weary).

 

Nonetheless, yes, ulfric admits that Skyrim will need to rebuild itself following the civil war, and his claim that there will be peace for a period of time would seem justified, considering Cyrodiil would probably remain a sufficient buffer zone for a few months at the very least (perhaps a few years, even). With the inevitable decline of the Empire, a 'grab for cyrodiil', would probably help Skyrim's economy to recover (and give it a strategic position in Bruma).

 

On the topic of recovering economies, would Tony Cliff's 'Permanent Arms' theory be applicable to the TES universe? If so, Skyrim;s economy (and Hmmerfell's, for that matter), could recover very quickly.

 

 

The death of the Emperor has other consequences: considering that it was a High Council member who hired the Dark Brotherhood to assassinate the Emperor it is fairly safe to assume that there are other Council members who also aspire to succeed Titus Mede II on the throne. This will probably lead to some sort of war of succession or power struggle (and no, I do not believe that the council members' sense of responsibility for the Empire as a whole will surpass their ambition to elevate themselves).

 

Could it be a hint from Bethesda that the final Dark Brotherhood quest is named 'To Kill an Empire' and not 'To Kill an Emperor'?

 

Yes, the assassination of the Emperor by scheming councils does not bode well for the EMpire, contributing to my arguemnt tht its screwed.

 

Admittedly, there is no evidence that Titus II doesn't have a successor (although he could be next, or even refused power). And also, Titus Mede I the first arose after a few decades, not a few centuries (not that it reversed the decline of the Empire).

[MightyZ0G]

Yes, the assassination of the Emperor by scheming councils does not bode well for the EMpire, contributing to my arguemnt tht its screwed.

 

Admittedly, there is no evidence that Titus II doesn't have a successor (although he could be next, or even refused power). And also, Titus Mede I the first arose after a few decades, not a few centuries (not that it reversed the decline of the Empire).

 

the Empire isn't screwed if you listen to what the "scheming councillor" says

he says that killing TMII is the best thing for the Empire and that his death has probably saved it

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Yes, the assassination of the Emperor by scheming councils does not bode well for the EMpire, contributing to my arguemnt tht its screwed.

 

Admittedly, there is no evidence that Titus II doesn't have a successor (although he could be next, or even refused power). And also, Titus Mede I the first arose after a few decades, not a few centuries (not that it reversed the decline of the Empire).

 

the Empire isn't screwed if you listen to what the "scheming councillor" says

he says that killing TMII is the best thing for the Empire and that his death has probably saved it

 

I said it contributes to it. Beside, what does Motierre say he will do? Does he deny that he will take the throne? Does he state he will declare war on the Dominion? Will he kiss the Dominion's arse? Saying you will do 'what is best' means you could do anything, I mean, the Assassination of Julius Caesar was supposedly 'for the good of the republic', and look what happened.

 

I wrote point 5 of this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1

 

 

5. The Empire is collapsing

Following the Oblivion Crisis, many NPCs suggested that the Empire may have been beginning to wane. They were right. Within the year, Black Marsh Succeeded, along with Elsweyr. by the 5th year, Morrowind was destroyed, and within the 30th year, the Thalmor took advantage of the turmoil facing the Empire, and formed the Aldmeri Dominion. So even entering the 4th Era, the Empire was stunted.

 

In the 2nd century, the cities of Winterhold and Riften were devastated, further crippling the Empire. However the Great War was undoubtedly the largest blow to the Empire in recent history. By the end of it, the Imperial treasury and legions were spent, and the Cyrodiilic infrastructure ruined. To make things worse, Hammerfell left, serious drug wars began in Cyrodiil and Skyrim slowly became gripped in Civil War, making rebuilding near impossible.

 

Thus, over a period of 200 years, the Empire has entered a never-ending spiral of collapse, signalling it is heading the way of Rome, Byzantium, Russia, China and the Ottomans (etc).

 

Irreversibility of the 'spiral of collapse':

While it is commonly said that the problems outlined above can be solved rather easily, this approach undermines the dynamics of how Empires fall. With every lost province, the Empire loses income, meaning it cannot pay troops or fund projects, which leads to other provinces declaring Independence, meaning the Empire loses yet more income (etc etc). Obviously, when you run out of money, your troops rebel (or disband), and you have no ability to reverse the situation, without creating a 'revolutionary situation', which has the potential to end the Empire in an instant.

[MightyZ0G]

some citizens mention some troubles in Imperial provinces but a lot of those seem to be centered on the Dark Brotherhood (it is their sanctuaries that bear the brunt of the troubles) and most of the troubles are gangs fighting gangs.

 

High Rock isn't in too bad a shape and a Breton Emperor could bring Hammerfell back into the Empire (it was Mede who "sold out" Hammerfell not Motierre)

 

the Empire only has 2 real problems to deal with

the big one is the Dominion but they are on the back burner for now

the second problem is the Stormcloak Rebellion which isn't that big a problem but it is one that has to be sorted out quickly before it takes too much of a toll on the Empire's resourses leaving Cyrodiil and Skyrim vulnerable.

 

one thing to consider

if Hammerfell is so anti Empire, why are so many Redguards in the Imperial Army and in Skyrim?

[LadyMilla]

 

Yes, the assassination of the Emperor by scheming councils does not bode well for the EMpire, contributing to my arguemnt tht its screwed.

 

Admittedly, there is no evidence that Titus II doesn't have a successor (although he could be next, or even refused power). And also, Titus Mede I the first arose after a few decades, not a few centuries (not that it reversed the decline of the Empire).

 

the Empire isn't screwed if you listen to what the "scheming councillor" says

he says that killing TMII is the best thing for the Empire and that his death has probably saved it

 

I would not take the words of the 'scheming councillor' at face value. If you take Ulfric's words that he is fighting for the freedom of Skyrim with a pinch of salt then the same yardstick should be used when you judge the words of other in-game characters. It is almost like trusting the words of Emperor Palpatine when he assured Anakin that by killing the Separatist leaders on Mustafar he "restored peace and justice to the Galaxy".

[RighthandofSithis]

some citizens mention some troubles in Imperial provinces but a lot of those seem to be centered on the Dark Brotherhood (it is their sanctuaries that bear the brunt of the troubles) and most of the troubles are gangs fighting gangs.

 

High Rock isn't in too bad a shape and a Breton Emperor could bring Hammerfell back into the Empire (it was Mede who "sold out" Hammerfell not Motierre)

 

the Empire only has 2 real problems to deal with

the big one is the Dominion but they are on the back burner for now

the second problem is the Stormcloak Rebellion which isn't that big a problem but it is one that has to be sorted out quickly before it takes too much of a toll on the Empire's resourses leaving Cyrodiil and Skyrim vulnerable.

 

one thing to consider

if Hammerfell is so anti Empire, why are so many Redguards in the Imperial Army and in Skyrim?

Cicero provides the main insight into the Cyrodiilic situation, and sums it up in Dialogue "The Imperial Province is Ravaged by Strife".

 

He gives a more in depth discussion in his journals: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero%27s_Journal

 

The Empire has far more to deal with than just Skyrim and the Dominion. The Chaos Cicero describes suggests that it would be impossible for the Empire to rebuild after such a devastating war (Camilla Valerisu states it 'ruined everything', along with common sense), not to mention Legates stating the Legion is overstretched as it is, and Imperial supporters recognising serious problems in the Empire, and refusing to address them (Rikke and Merilis).

 

As i said, the Empire is collapsing, as it had been for 200 years. Nothing can stop it (short of becoming a complete puppet to the Dominion). Better to have some resistance than no resistance.

Edited April 26, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Anska]

Zog, I think the ill blood between Hammerfell and the Empire is a rather recent thing, a result of the Great War and the WGC (the last two "chapters" of "The Great War" suggest this). On the other hand most of the Redguards in the Imperial Legion have probably been in there for a much longer time, just as many Nords already served in the Legion during the Great War (Rikke for example). Some Redguards might not consider themselves people of Hammerfell anymore too, because they and their parents haven't even been born there. You could just as well ask, why a Redguard would want to fight for the Stormcloaks, as the son of the Redguard silversmith in Markarth does.

Concerning the "scheming councilor" I agree with was said before, but would like to add, that apart from this, he is a character with his own point of view too. Even if he himself thinks, that he is doing the Empire a great favor by having the Emperor killed, we might not agree with his reasons for it or his plans for the future. He might just as well believe, that the Empire is in such a state of chaos, that it would actually be the best thing if the Dominion took over and finally brought some kind of peace to Tamriel again. Thing is, we know close to nothing to this man.

LadyMilla, I haven't replied to your post from Tuesday yet, because I am rather busy at the moment and didn't get around to give the two revolutions you mentioned a closer look, let alone the matter any deeper thought.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Anska

[MightyZ0G]

good points Anska, but I still believe that Skyrim's only chance of a future free from Thalmor rule is as part of a united Empire.

 

if Ulfric wasn't doing the Thalmor's job in Skyrim then the Empire would have been able to prevent a gang war between skooma dealers and also prevent corsairs raiding in High Rock.

the only real information is that the DB were heavily targeted. considering how theatrical and dramatic Cicero is, I am not surprised at the bleakness of the picture that he paints

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I apologize that I didn't read every post in this thread and if I say crap that has been said already and or squashed or whatever other offensive thing I might do with my post by being a newb but

 

The Empire wasn't being a puppet, they were surviving when they conceded to The Dominion. If you can't beat your enemy (or do so without significant loss and casualties), join them until you can. That is why they did what they did.

 

The Elves are smart enough to know this however and so they did the Talos thing so that the Empire would fight itself and thus threw a monkey wrench it what was otherwise the smartest (not the bravest or perhaps even the most honorable) move.

 

But pride is a b&@*$ (can I say that here oooo I hope I don't get banned before I've even made 20 posts) and it skews one's point of view. Running/surrendering is cowardly, face foes head on, etc, etc. Pride is costly too. I mean any mentality that has an upside of dying a particular way is a pretty expensive mentality to have in general.

 

There are also those that feel that to worship Talos in secret would have been wrong and I get that too, but in the end, The Empire was simply trying to play it smart and nothing else.

 

With the death of the Emperor perhaps there will be problems, but things often have to get worse before they can get better. It's sorta why the daedric princes technically aren't evil as much as they are simply forces of change and renewel like how forest fires are needed in order to help a forest grow.

 

But even Ulfric, if you see him in Sovengarde ends up regretting his actions if I am not mistaken so that says a lot in my opinion.

 

Which side wins in the civil war? The Dominion of course as Skyrim and the Empire played right into their hands :(

 

My apology if my post was offensive or inaccurate or a repeat of others' posts

[Anska]

Hi, welcome to the thread - and don't worry, I don't think anybody here has read all the 140 and something pages of the discussion ...

I don't have too much time on my hands right now, so I'd like to reply to the point you made about Ulfric in Sovngard only, because I interpret it a little differently. I believe, that Ulfric isn't sorry that he started the CW, he is sorry that he helped Alduin to regain strength and sacrificed the souls of his people to the Worldeater.

The whole quote goes like this: "Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor."

If you meet Ulfric in Sovngard, it means you finished the CW before the Main Quest and Season Unending never happened. In other words, Ulfric had no idea that the big black dragon at Helgen wasn't just any big black dragon, but the harbinger of the end of the world. Ulfric and his men fought bravely for what they considered a just cause, thus they were certain that even if they died in the progress, they would be granted a place in the Hall of Valor. However, as Alduin was around, they couldn't reach the Hall and became dragon-food instead. That is why Ulfric says, that "Skyrim was betrayed" - they fought for the sake of their country, but fate played a cruel joke on them and they helped destroying the world instead. This doesn't have anything to do with the Thalmor, in my opinion, it only means that Ulfric regrets, that he didn't know about Alduin sooner, because had he known, he wouldn't have played right into the dragon's claws. And indeed, if Season Unending does take place, all you have to say is "Alduin's back" and Ulfric instantly agrees to attend the peace-council.

So I don't think he regrets having started the war, which he still considers a just cause, in my opinion, but he regrets having helped Alduin in the progress.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Anska