Imperial VS Stormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

you are saying that the Empire's boat is sinking because Ulfric is rocking it so it's time to abandon ship when all it needs is for Ulfric to sit down and behave or be thrown overboard.

[Anska]

If I understood it correctly, he's saying, that: Because there's a massive hole in the hull of the ship, a lot of people have turned their gazes towards the lifeboats. Ulfric is just the guy who organizes them so they actually climb into the lifeboats and start paddling. Also, hadn't there been a hole in the ship in the first place, the people would have gladly continued to scrub the deck and no one could have ever convinced them to climb into the lifeboats. - Just to stick to the ship-metaphor.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Anska

[MightyZ0G]

but there isn't a hole, there is just a bit of water coming in over the side because Ulfric is rocking the boat.

 

I still say that Ulfric is acting as the unwitting pawn of the Thalmor.

he doesn't know that he is acting in their interests but that doesn't make him or his actions right.

[LadyMilla]

but there isn't a hole, there is just a bit of water coming in over the side....

 

Probably the first class passengers thought the same shortly after the Titanic hit the iceberg. The stokers whose bunks were near the forepeak tank and the firemen in boiler room 6 begged to differ.

[MightyZ0G]

but the Empire isn't the Titanic and it isn't just the "first class passengers" who think the Empire is ok.

 

getting away from the metaphore for a bit, even some high ranking Stormcloak supporters don't believe that Ulfric is a noble hero fighting to save Skyrim and they suspect that his motives are selfish and purely for his own personal gain and prestige.

 

I suppose the only real answer to "which side to take?" is to ask every NPC that has the option to talk about the rebellion and see what the ones you or your character like or respect say about it and Ulfric, then re-read the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric and take it from there.

 

except for my first playthrough where I sided with the Stormcloaks, every playthrough since I have sided with the Empire based on the above criteria.

I couldn't face going to the Underkeep after Balgruuf was run out of Whiterun and pretty much restarted right away and sided with the Empire.

[RighthandofSithis]

Unless you can prove the Empire is recovering, my comment stands.

 

From my analysis, the Empire has been declining for 200 years (with a brief patch-up with the rise of Titus mede I), but since the great war, has sunck at a much faster rate, a signal of things to come.

 

Dialectics, my friend, Dialectics (now that I've actually read what that means).

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Hi, welcome to the thread - and don't worry, I don't think anybody here has read all the 140 and something pages of the discussion ...

 

I don't have too much time on my hands right now, so I'd like to reply to the point you made about Ulfric in Sovngard only, because I interpret it a little differently. I believe, that Ulfric isn't sorry that he started the CW, he is sorry that he helped Alduin to regain strength and sacrificed the souls of his people to the Worldeater.

 

The whole quote goes like this: "Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor."

 

If you meet Ulfric in Sovngard, it means you finished the CW before the Main Quest and Season Unending never happened. In other words, Ulfric had no idea that the big black dragon at Helgen wasn't just any big black dragon, but the harbinger of the end of the world. Ulfric and his men fought bravely for what they considered a just cause, thus they were certain that even if they died in the progress, they would be granted a place in the Hall of Valor. However, as Alduin was around, they couldn't reach the Hall and became dragon-food instead. That is why Ulfric says, that "Skyrim was betrayed" - they fought for the sake of their country, but fate played a cruel joke on them and they helped destroying the world instead. This doesn't have anything to do with the Thalmor, in my opinion, it only means that Ulfric regrets, that he didn't know about Alduin sooner, because had he known, he wouldn't have played right into the dragon's claws. And indeed, if Season Unending does take place, all you have to say is "Alduin's back" and Ulfric instantly agrees to attend the peace-council.

 

So I don't think he regrets having started the war, which he still considers a just cause, in my opinion, but he regrets having helped Alduin in the progress.

 

Thank you for your welcome Anska and your response. I like your interpretation, but seeing it has made me realize something. That while I see your interpretation of Ulfric's word feasible, I still see it as feasible that he was referring to the mistake of starting that war, BUT what I realize is this might actually be a bit of phenomenal writing where it is deliberately capable of being interpreted in multiple ways.

 

Some stories (maybe even most) there really is a right and wrong interpretation depending on the writer of course, but this may be a situation where it is deliberately interpretive. I could be wrong, but seeing such a strong feasibility in your presented view without diminishing mine has caused me to move int hat direction. Damn this game is good, lol.

[RighthandofSithis]

Some stories (maybe even most) there really is a right and wrong interpretation depending on the writer of course, but this may be a situation where it is deliberately interpretive. I could be wrong, but seeing such a strong feasibility in your presented view without diminishing mine has caused me to move int hat direction. Damn this game is good, lol.

 

To me, considering every notable NPC met in Sovengard refers to Alduin (notably, in this case, Rikke), I'd imagine Ulfrics comments after his death were intended to follow the main line.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

 

Some stories (maybe even most) there really is a right and wrong interpretation depending on the writer of course, but this may be a situation where it is deliberately interpretive. I could be wrong, but seeing such a strong feasibility in your presented view without diminishing mine has caused me to move int hat direction. Damn this game is good, lol.

 

To me, considering every notable NPC met in Sovengard refers to Alduin (notably, in this case, Rikke), I'd imagine Ulfrics comments after his death were intended to follow the main line.

 

I'm not saying that is wrong as I think that is very possible, but I still think it is very possible that this interpretation is feasible as well:

 

"Upon death, he can be encountered in Sovngarde as a specter, interestingly regretting his belligerent actions against the Empire due to how it only weakend Skyrim and strengthened the Thalmor.

 

That's my opinion, but I respect yours and definitely think you could be right ;)

[LadyMilla]

but the Empire isn't the Titanic and it isn't just the "first class passengers" who think the Empire is ok.

 

Well, just ask those farmers who you encounter on the road. If you talk more than once to those who are heading for Windhelm, they say interesting things: "The Empire is in shambles."... "I may have roots in Cyrodiil, but Skyrim's as much my home as any Nord's". Listen to the Imperial soldiers: "...most of my family disagree with my decision".

 

The fact is, the Empire is going downhill since the death of Martin Septim. At that point in time the physical connection to the Dragonborn/Akatoshian roots of the Empire (represented by Martin's bloodline and the Amulet of Kings) was broken. It was an important symbol and link because the Amulet was infused with Alessia's soul as part of the pact with Akatosh, and Alessia was essentially the liberator of mankind, the one who crushed the Ayleid (i.e. Elven) oppression. Then came the Great War, and after losing the physical link to its heritage, the Empire lost the spiritual connection too by giving up the worship of Talos. When that happened the Empire lost its moral foothold.

 

But let's see the fate of the provinces: The Aldmeri Dominion attacked and Cyrodiil lost most of its provinces. Morrowind was destroyed by the Red Mountain and some part of it was conquered by the Argonians. Hammerfell secedes. Black Marsh, Elsweyr and Valenvood is lost.

 

I'm sorry, I must say the facts do not support your argument that the "Empire is okay". It's almost like examining a guy who lost most of his limbs and whose brain lost its higher functions, and saying "he is okay".

 

Also, the importance of the Thalmor dossier is overrated. The Thalmor consider everyone and everything that creates turmoil within the Empire an 'asset'. No to mention that the Thalmor dossier clearly states that Ulfris is un-cooperative. Ulfric is clever enough to try and maneuver his enemies. If he presented himself to the Thalmor as a potential threat, he would have been forced to deal with potential Thalmor assassination attempts.

 

The irony of the situation is that there are few ways to settle it in a pleasant manner in TES VI. Bethesda will not risk angering half of the TES fanbase by declaring one of the civil war factions winner. Since that option is out of question, one can only speculate about the fate of Tamriel (will Bethesda resort to another Dragon Break, or will they use some kind of deus ex machina to resolve the problem?).