Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Kraeten]

imperistan, on 15 May 2013 - 09:51, said:

And as for Ulfric, the revolution has grown beyond him. He may have started it but the reasons to continue it have nothing to do with him anymore. To get hung up over some insignificant replaceable welp is to be extremely short-sighted.

Ridiculous. Ulfric is the figure head. He's the one who gives voice to their discontent. The rebellious Nords named their movement after him for crying out loud. To trivialize his role demonstrates a clear lack of understanding. Skyrim was peaceful before Ulfric, with the help of the Thalmor, stoked the flames of civil war. Without him it's just a rabble of very simple minded and disgruntled warriors. Edited May 15, 2013 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

 

The Snow Elves massacred the first human settler's save Ysgramor and may be a few others, iirc. Unprovoked, no less. They had it coming to them.

 

Excpet for the fact that Dagon tricked the Falmer into it, and the Nords rapid expansionism, and hostile activites, were real concern for the Falmer.

 

Even so, a total massacre of all the humans in Skyrim at the time was uncalled for. To put down the Nords for their response to genocide just ignores the facts.

 

 

 

imperistan, on 15 May 2013 - 09:51, said:

And as for Ulfric, the revolution has grown beyond him. He may have started it but the reasons to continue it have nothing to do with him anymore. To get hung up over some insignificant replaceable welp is to be extremely short-sighted.

Ridiculous. Ulfric is the figure head. He's the one who gives voice to their discontent. The rebellious Nords named their movement after him for crying out loud. To trivialize his role demonstrates a clear lack of understanding. Skyrim was peaceful before Ulfric, with the help of the Thalmor, stoked the flames of civil war. Without him it's just a rabble of very simple minded and disgruntled warriors.

 

 

Anyone can replace him. Anyone. The seeds of rebellion existed long, LONG before Ulfric came along and gave the people of Skyrim a push. If those seeds did not exist for years prior to Ulfric slaying the High King then half of Skyrim wouldn't have joined up with him the near instant he started the rebellion.

 

It already would have taken a while for word to reach Dawnstar, Riften, and Winterhold that Ulfric had started a rebellion. If the people were not already convinced there, then Ulfric would not have had any forces at all for at least a month outside of those of his own city.

 

Indeed, it was the very fact that Ulfric didn't plan his rebellion very well (He is an idiot after all, good at battle, horrible at war) that the rebellion almost came to a very swift end. Its clear that his 3 initial allies weren't preparing beforehand for the rebellion as otherwise they would have been better prepared to secure the territory after Ulfric started the rebellion. The fact that Ulfric was caught in the middle of his own territory proves his forces had not yet been rallied and had not secured their territory against Imperial incursion.

 

It is the very fact that Ulfric had any allies to call upon at all that proves that the rebellion does not rely on JUST him. Replace him with any other man capable of leading an army and you'll still have the Rebellion. But it doesn't matter if its the Dragonborn himself. Without the people of Skyrim willing to fight for independence the rebellion would be nothing. The people of Skyrim might be very well educated but do they not all fight for just one man.

 

It is only those who are closest to either side who fight specifically for Ulfric or the Empire. Everyone else is either fighting for their homes or fighting because they're being told to. Anyone can glorify a leader and invoke his name in battle, but in truth if its a choice between him and that person's home, the home will be chosen first. Everytime.

 

If Ulfric does not act in the interests of those he intends to lead then he will be ousted, and the rebellion will go on.

 

And don't insult the people of Skyrim. That just lessens your argument to nonsense. (and before you say it, I'm right in calling Ulfric an idiot, because he is one. And also because I will readily admit that I don't like him. Unless you are willing to admit that you don't care about the people (which makes you a part of the problem) then you have no right to belittle them)

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Yeah... but the fact that they were only seeds until Ulfric did what he did (and that his supporters are in fact supporting his claim to be High King) says that Ulfric is way more important to the Stormcloak movement than you are giving him credit for. (I mean a major portion of their movement, regardless as to why, is that Ulfric should be High King so if he were dead, a huge chunk of what they are fighting for would be gone)

 

You can't replace Ulfric with anyone and expect the movement to be the same, because not just anyone challenged the other guy who was High King and won.

[letthehammerfall]

when the Thalmor released him from the prison after the Markarth Incident, he started the Stormcloak rebellion. if he had died at prison, there would have no rebellion at all. Ulfric is important yes, and it's clearly important, for the Thalmor and its plans.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Even so, a total massacre of all the humans in Skyrim at the time was uncalled for. To put down the Nords for their response to genocide just ignores the facts.

To respond to genocide with genocide only makes the Nords as bad as the Falmer before them.

 

One does not need to exterminate an entrie race becuase they killed all the humans in one small area, the Nord's reponce makes them nothing more then simply hypocrites.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kraeten]

 

Anyone can replace him. Anyone. The seeds of rebellion existed long, LONG before Ulfric came along and gave the people of Skyrim a push. If those seeds did not exist for years prior to Ulfric slaying the High King then half of Skyrim wouldn't have joined up with him the near instant he started the rebellion

 

 

No, not just anyone. The people sing songs calling Ulfric the true High King. He is of paramount importance to his people. And I've seen you make this claim before, that anyone could replace Ulfric. Pray tell who is this "anyone"? A commoner won't replace him before a Jarl, and the Stormcloak Jarls are predominantly incompetent and irrational. Not to mention vain. Without Ulfric there is a vacuum that cannot be filled. More to the point, Ulfric's death does in fact spell doom for the Stormcloaks. Once you've finished killing him during the civil war, that's it. The rebellion has ended. No other Nord rebel stumbles to the forefront calling himself the true High King. These seeds of rebellion are not nearly as strong as you think.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Kraeten

[imperistan]

 

Yeah... but the fact that they were only seeds until Ulfric did what he did (and that his supporters are in fact supporting his claim to be High King) says that Ulfric is way more important to the Stormcloak movement than you are giving him credit for. (I mean a major portion of their movement, regardless as to why, is that Ulfric should be High King so if he were dead, a huge chunk of what they are fighting for would be gone)

You can't replace Ulfric with anyone and expect the movement to be the same, because not just anyone challenged the other guy who was High King and won.

 

A catalyst is a catalyst, no matter how you paint it. It didn't have to be Ulfric slaying the High King. It could have been a rise of the people. Another Jarl could have just outright started rebelling. In the end it doesn't matter. This rebellion stands for more than just putting some bumpkin on the throne, even if the people fighting it don't know it.

 

It stands for the beginning. The beginning of a new era for Tamriel thats free from the trappings and failures of the Mede Empire and the Septim Empire that collapsed before it. Free from the clutches of two warring empires that will only serve to plunge Tamriel into an even deeper darkness than has ever been seen before. If things do not change, now, in the present, before it is too late, then Tamriel will not see true peace for a long, long time.

 

The Septim Empire is dead. Talos is dying. The elves are coming. And the Mede Empire will sit and watch it happen. Let it happen. The Mede Empire used to be strong. It could have fought back, it could have saved itself from being split and wrought with in-fighting. But instead, we saw Mede APOLOGIZE for killing so many invaders of his country. We see the elves gain EVERYTHING they wanted WHEN THEY LOST. The Mede Empire deserves to die. Tamriel deserves better than that. A chance at something better.

 

The Rebellion is this chance, and no matter who started it this is what is needed to save Tamriel from darkness. In 200 years, no one will care if some stupid little man sat on the throne for 60 years and was a horrid ruler. But men will not be slave to mer. Tamriel will not be under threat of being unmade by psychotic elves obsessed with godhood.

 

I'll say it again as I've said before in this topic. Ulfric is a red herring, and you all are too blinded by your personal hatred of him to see through him and his nonsense, and see the worth of the rebellion. You are too blinded by the promise of an Empire you'll never get back. Too blinded by the assurance that the Dominion will be dealt with, eventually.

 

We are at the dawn of a new era of war. It is inescapable. But if the Empire is not left to rot as it should be, then it will be a greater and harder struggle then we can imagine to find the light again.

 

<i>To respond to genocide with genocide only makes the Nords as bad as the Falmer before them.

</i>

You know better than to ignore context. An eye for an eye isn't out of the question here. We are dealing with two relatively primitive cultures here after all. And given that the Nords had done little to nothing wrong (and definitely nothing so wrong as to justify the slaughter of every man, woman, and child) then they were completely in the right in dealing that blow right back.

<i>These seeds of rebellion are not nearly as strong as you think.

</i>

The game world is not a real world, and it is only written up to a certain point.

And further, when you defeat the Stormcloaks, you defeat their entire army and replace the jarls of their cities with Imperial backed nobles. Do tell how anyone can reasonably be expected to rise up yet again when an entire army has basically been defeated or destroyed and the new leaders are now surely hard at work keeping any resurgence fully suppressed?

Remember, the only reason either side manages to win the war at all is because of divine intervention by way of the Dragonborn. With that kind of backing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the losing side not be very eager to try again.

And thats without going into the possibility that the Dragonborn is Talos reborn. If such a possibility were to turn to rumor, then whoever the Dragonborn chooses to side with would have a massive amount of support start coming in.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

It didn't have to be, but it was and most successful movements do in fact need a leader and or a face so it is quite realistic that Ulfric was necessary to start this rebellion.

 

Often, without a leader/face, all you have is the bomb but no trigger mechanism so while technically it might go off, it isn't likely. The rebellion technically could have happened without Ulfric doing what he did, but it isn't likely that it would have and even if it did, it wouldn't have had the same oomph.

 

Ulfric (like many leaders tend to be) is a majorly important piece to all this and yes, since he is a huge part of what they believe they are fighting for (given they are fighting because they believe he rightfully belongs on the throne) it does matter and so does he. I mean after all, if they won without Ulfric, who are they going to put on the throne if he's dead?

 

Not just anyone can replace Ulfric. It's not that easy to lead a strong rebellion and or be the face of it.

[Monkinsane]

 

Even so, a total massacre of all the humans in Skyrim at the time was uncalled for. To put down the Nords for their response to genocide just ignores the facts.

To respond to genocide with genocide only makes the Nords as bad as the Falmer before them.

 

One does not need to exterminate an entrie race becuase they killed all the humans in one small area, the Nord's reponce makes them nothing more then simply hypocrites.

 

 

 

I disagree,

 

Their response was justified. They didn't start the fight - the falmer did. They sure finished it though.

 

It does not make them hypocrites, what happened after 9/11? America invaded Iraq in retaliation. For the Nords, as a nation, to do nothing would have been a sign of weakness and an open invitation to the falmer that they should invade.

 

War is ugly, people die. Such are the ways of the world.

 

An eye for an eye....

[MidbossVyers]

Ironically, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but that's another story.