Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Falkner1992]

Ask yourself this: Besides Ralof, can you name ONE Stormcloak who is not a complete bastard?

 

No? Well that tells you something, doesn't it?

Edited May 17, 2013 by Falkner1992

[MidbossVyers]

Same goes for the Imperials.

[Falkner1992]

Same goes for the Imperials.

 

Excuse me, but you can't possible be referring to the same Imperials I'm thinking of.

[imperistan]

It didn't have to be, but it was and most successful movements do in fact need a leader and or a face so it is quite realistic that Ulfric was necessary to start this rebellion.

 

 

You have a point, but yet again you make it out as if Ulfric is/was the only person capable of filling the role, and thats just false. He may have been the quickest to the plate but if he had died in that Thalmor prison, another would have taken his place.

 

Everything that can logically be said about this situation says so, and not only that, but do remember that it was prophesied that this war would erupt. One man dying or failing to step up isn't going to stop the prophecy.

 

Again, there is no shortage of great leaders in Skyrim, and even more than we see in-game. All it takes is one stepping up.

 

 

[WolvenEdge]

>tilts head left< Also, if Skyrim throws the empire off, won't the other countries do the same? And who do all these newly freed countries go after but the Thalmor or each other? These nords aren't all jerks and idiots as many make them out to be. I personally play as Khajiit, mostly because it is the only available mamalian beast race, I would prefer wolf and am in progress on making it, but that is beside the point; it turns out than even I may walk into a Stormcloak camp without them yelling "GET THE SKOOMA DEALER CAT-FREAK!!!!1!!one!!"

 

>head up< If all stormcloaks were uber-racists then wouldn't they kill me on sight? In dawnstar (or Morthal, I forget) there is a nord running a shop who personally apologises for his brother's blatant racism, and says "Not me, I met many provincials during my days as a stormcloak." I personally take these as proof that many nords do not mind working with other races, and the other races often seem friendly enough.

 

>ears forward< What all this is coming together to say is that I can see the racism already starting to fade even as you play the game, and it is far from inconcievable that each country, if liberated from the empire, would promptly turn almost immediately on the Thalmor. The Thalmor have shown no problem fighting one united foe, meaning one giant battlefront with multiple striking points, against the empire, but if attacked from all direction at once by Skyrim, Ellesewhier(bad spelling, I know. Go Moonpath), Black Marsh(which they have had as much luck taking over as anyone else), Hammerfell, and maybe even High rock all in relatively short order, their currently stretched troops would be unable to react in time to prevent their downfall.

 

>ears folded back, lips drawn half< And to those of you who seem to believe that Ulfric is still in league with the Thalmor, try looking at what he is doing right now. Step into his shoes if you want a glimpse of his past; what would you do if you were a soldier captured and tortured by those whom you perhaps thought of as your allies, and then convinced that the fall of at least some of your friends and fellow soldiers, as well as the fall of an entire city, was a fair portion your fault. That has to hurt. He was probably half convinced that they were superior to him and his kind in that torture room as well, considering the Thalmor. Is it any wonder why he was an unwilling accomplice for a while? When he put down the uprising in Markarth, he found himself fighting in a place at least sort of close to home, and his victory in the area was probably a big eye-opener for him, giving him the will to fight back against both those who had tortured and killed his kinsman, and those he saw as their toadies.

 

>ears up, lips down head half down< I am not saying I agree entirely with what he did/does either. He had to have acted hastily in his planning, as attested to by his capture at Helgen. Though if you follow Ralof at the beginning he explains to Gurder "it was like they knew exactly when we'de be there" so I suspect an inside job. He seems to admit that he is not the best tactician by conceding to Galmar often in matters of warfare, and he does refuse taking the title of high king directly right at the end, chosing to follow the laws and convene a moot instead. The main thing that ticks me about Ulfric is his addition of "I swear to . . .[blah blah blah] . . . to see ulfric to the title of high king by whatever means necessary. . ." (rough paraphrase) in the oath needed to join them. I am soon going to play all the way through joining the empire's side to see what happens there, new information always always carries the potential to change opinion.

[Kraeten]

Again, there is no shortage of great leaders in Skyrim, and even more than we see in-game. All it takes is one stepping up.

There is a shortage of great leaders actually. The fact you can't even name ONE at the present who could replace Ulfric demonstrates this serious vacuum. Moreover, if say someone else did rise up to lead the rebellion, odds are it would have been just another Thalmor plant. It's not as if these rebellious nords are especially ready to deal with the spook arm of the Aldermi Dominion, they don't even have a spook arm of their own to use in defense or offense.

 

The Empire on the other hand is far better organized and ready. They'd nearly ended the rebellion at the beginning of the game if not for Alduin.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Kraeten

[Anska]

 

Same goes for the Imperials.

 

Excuse me, but you can't possible be referring to the same Imperials I'm thinking of.

 

I don't think there are a lot of "complete bastards" in Skyrim anyway. Sibi, Maven, Mercer Frey, Ancano and a few others qualify perhaps but I wouldn't go so far as to say that all the Stormcloaks or all the Imperials are "complete bastards". Most of the soldiers or Field COs don't even have enough dialogue to allow me any serious judgment about their personalities at all.

[Falkner1992]

 

 

Same goes for the Imperials.

 

Excuse me, but you can't possible be referring to the same Imperials I'm thinking of.

 

I don't think there are a lot of "complete bastards" in Skyrim anyway. Sibi, Maven, Mercer Frey, Ancano and a few others qualify perhaps but I wouldn't go so far as to say that all the Stormcloaks or all the Imperials are "complete bastards". Most of the soldiers or Field COs don't even have enough dialogue to allow me any serious judgment about their personalities at all.

 

Of course, I'm talking about the ones who have enough dialogue and backstory to be considered actual characters, not just obstacles to kill.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Their response was justified. They didn't start the fight - the falmer did. They sure finished it though.

 

It does not make them hypocrites, what happened after 9/11? America invaded Iraq in retaliation. For the Nords, as a nation, to do nothing would have been a sign of weakness and an open invitation to the falmer that they should invade.

 

War is ugly, people die. Such are the ways of the world.

 

An eye for an eye....

 

What an awful analogy, firstly, as another poster mentioned, we didn't go to Iraq because of 9/11, secondly, we also didn't launch a war of annihilation against them, and didn't try to murder as many innocent civilians as possible.

 

>ears forward< What all this is coming together to say is that I can see the racism already starting to fade even as you play the game, and it is far from inconcievable that each country, if liberated from the empire, would promptly turn almost immediately on the Thalmor. The Thalmor have shown no problem fighting one united foe, meaning one giant battlefront with multiple striking points, against the empire, but if attacked from all direction at once by Skyrim, Ellesewhier(bad spelling, I know. Go Moonpath), Black Marsh(which they have had as much luck taking over as anyone else), Hammerfell, and maybe even High rock all in relatively short order, their currently stretched troops would be unable to react in time to prevent their downfall.

 

That only really works if a whole lot of really unlikely coincidences occur

1. Elswyer, for some unknown reason, decides to randomly turn on The Thalmor, who they currently hail as heroes for bringing back the moons, the Khajiit's most important religious items.

2. Black Marsh actually DOES something, which, given that all they have done for nearly 200 years is sit in thier swamps, seems unlikely.

3. That all the nations, who historically fight amongst themselves, somehow get together and manage to attack The Thalmor from all sides at once. Because them attacking one at a time is destined to fail.

 

Furthermore, The Thalmor only won against The Empire because they attacked Cyrodiil by surprise in a manner to the German Blitzkrieg. However, as WW2 has shown, while initially successful, eventually the forces of The allies were able to overcome them, which The Empire itself did at the battle of the Red Ring.

 

Edited May 18, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

 

 

It didn't have to be, but it was and most successful movements do in fact need a leader and or a face so it is quite realistic that Ulfric was necessary to start this rebellion.

 

You have a point, but yet again you make it out as if Ulfric is/was the only person capable of filling the role, and thats just false. He may have been the quickest to the plate but if he had died in that Thalmor prison, another would have taken his place.

 

Everything that can logically be said about this situation says so, and not only that, but do remember that it was prophesied that this war would erupt. One man dying or failing to step up isn't going to stop the prophecy.

 

Again, there is no shortage of great leaders in Skyrim, and even more than we see in-game. All it takes is one stepping up.

This isn't true. I am saying that only special individuals can do what Ulfric did and that, just like in real life, these people are in fact quite rare.

 

Count the number of kings, presidents, dictators, generals, captains, admirals and even candidates for those positions... then of that number, count only the ones that are considered successful.

 

Now... take that number and use it against the number of people who have ever lived that would have been old enough to be any of these things.

 

You'll be lucky if that number exceeds half of a half of a percent. I'd say that it is rare. Ulfric may not have been the only one, but he may as well had been and on top of that, even of the leaders we may have considered great for one reason or another, most still don't have what it takes (or even a desire) to be where Ulfric is and or where he is trying to go which is why most people did what they normally do in that situation... they waited. They waited for someone else to come along and bring about change.

 

So no, it is actually illogical and unrealistic to think that if it were not Ulfric, it just would have been some other leader. The reality is, most likely it would not have been or if it was, it would have come further down the line. I mean slavery in America lasted for 200+ some years before anyone started standing up for their rights, but you can believe that all those people of color were unhappy. How many generations or countless people lived and died before civil rights leaders started propping up? Then how many more before truly notable leaders rose and gave that movement oomph?

 

Leadership is rare, good leadership even rarer, but it takes something almost indescribable for there to be a person with the traits necessary to have a chance at bringing about and or triggering progress towards real change.

 

In short: Just because you don't like Ulfric, don't sell the guy short. I don't like Ulfric either. He's the main reason that 99% of my characters join the Imperials, but it would be ignorance on my part to act as though he isn't important and or special and or key to what is happening in Skyrim.

 

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EDIT: And come on guys, neither side has any real complete bastards in the forefront per say. I mean they each have a jarl or two that is a complete bastard, but as much as I dislike Ulfric, while he does have a selfish ambition to him, he does in fact seem to genuinely also care about Skyrim and its people. Tullius may not understand Nord culture and thus takes shots at it, but he is not complete bastard.

 

Like I said before, one of the things I like about this civil war thing is that I feel that it was well written and realistic. See, some people think war is about good guys and bad guys, but it rarely (if ever) is. There is a noble cause to fight on either side. There are those who think they are doing the right things but are actually a bit misguided on both sides and there are people just trying to exploit and or take advantage on both sides.

 

This isn't a fairy tale with an evil queen or something like that (though I suppose one could argue the evil queen in all this is the Thalmor) but within the civil war itself, no. There are people doing bad things because they feel they are necessary on both sides and thus, there is ugly on both sides of the war, but make no mistake. Neither side is completely a bastard, they're just "human" and last I checked, being misguided doesn't make anyone stupid or evil or a bastard. It just makes them "human."

Edited May 18, 2013 by TheObstinateNoviceSmith