Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Nodtveidt]

I can understand the Stormcloaks but they would never win against the Aldmeri Dominion, Ulfric Thinks he

is a god himself, But the only thing he do is sitting in his chair giving orders,

does heroic talks and just complain about otherraces.

The Empire is also not on the best row but i their thinking is a lot further then the Stormcloaks,

What some Imperial NPC's say is true ''They forget that we keep the dominion out of Skyrim'' i prefer Imperials in Skyrim then 100's more of those elves....

they will not be that easy if someone stood up against them...

Edited May 27, 2013 by Nodtveidt

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

The thing is, nothing is impossible.

 

Sure Hammerfell had this and that to help, but there could also be different factors that help Skyrim to defend itself that Hammerfell didn't/doesn't have.

 

I do believe that Skyrim's best chance is to stick with the Empire, BUT I also know better than to call anything impossible especially when it involves the will, passions, and or heart and spirit of the people.

 

Ulfric could win and the Stormcloaks could still manage to be able to defend Skyrim. They may be the long shot in this race, but history is filled with upsets and victories for the underdog just as it is filled with the opposite.

 

It is unwise to underestimate an opponent and there have been times when that was the very reason a side or person lost.

[Kraeten]

Ulfric could win and the Stormcloaks could still manage to be able to defend Skyrim. They may be the long shot in this race, but history is filled with upsets and victories for the underdog just as it is filled with the opposite.

 

I wouldn't really call it an upset in Ulfric's case. We're talking about a land surrounded by massive snow capped mountains. Invading Skyrim would be like trying to invade Russia. It's an extremely daunting task. Cyrodiil is much easier prey in comparison. As for Ulfric invading and conquering the summerset isle....that I agree would be an upset. Then again Nords have a history of kicking elf posteriors. :P

Edited May 29, 2013 by Kraeten

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

It would definitely be an upset win as they are certainly an underdog in the fight and would be even more of an underdog after beating the Empire.

 

They're the underdog in the fight with the Empire and they'll be even weaker after a defeating the Empire so yeah, it would be an upset. Possible, but still a long shot.

[Kraeten]

It would definitely be an upset win as they are certainly an underdog in the fight and would be even more of an underdog after beating the Empire.

 

They're the underdog in the fight with the Empire and they'll be even weaker after a defeating the Empire so yeah, it would be an upset. Possible, but still a long shot.

 

You make it sound as if the Dominion wouldn't be thoroughly winded after marching its army through Cyrodiil. The Dominion caught the Empire with its trousers down the first time, it won't have such an easy go of it the next time around. The only other alternative invasion route is by sea, either through sailing a navy around Hammerfell and High Rock....a dicey prospect...or to sail a navy all the way around Morrowind...which is just as dubious if not more so.

 

What does that mean for Skyrim? Basically, the Aldmeri Dominion won't stage an invasion until after Cyrodiil has been conquered. And it could very well be years until that happens.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Kraeten

[Pushkatu]

I loved the imperial soldiers back in Cyrodiil. I mean, like the stormcloak soldier said when we where in the carriage in Helgen "imperial walls used to make me feel safe". That was the feeling I had in Oblivion. Thing is, 200 years later, the empire is nothing more than a bunch of corrupt individuals. There is no true emperor, no hero(only you) and it doesn't make me feel safe anymore. I always side with the stormcloks, because I imagine that Ulfric will not rule Skyrim for a long time and he must listen to what the dragonborn tells him, at least to a point. As dragonborn, you have tremendous power and a huge influence in Skyrim's high circles of society. Ulfric can be removed from power, by the dragonborn. I feel sad for the empire, but no empire was ever built to last. They all rise and fall and when they fall, they take down with them many of the conquered regions. A country can become strong enough to hold back any invaders( we are talking about nords here after all).

[Septemvile]

I loved the imperial soldiers back in Cyrodiil. I mean, like the stormcloak soldier said when we where in the carriage in Helgen "imperial walls used to make me feel safe". That was the feeling I had in Oblivion. Thing is, 200 years later, the empire is nothing more than a bunch of corrupt individuals. There is no true emperor, no hero(only you) and it doesn't make me feel safe anymore. I always side with the stormcloks, because I imagine that Ulfric will not rule Skyrim for a long time and he must listen to what the dragonborn tells him, at least to a point. As dragonborn, you have tremendous power and a huge influence in Skyrim's high circles of society. Ulfric can be removed from power, by the dragonborn. I feel sad for the empire, but no empire was ever built to last. They all rise and fall and when they fall, they take down with them many of the conquered regions. A country can become strong enough to hold back any invaders( we are talking about nords here after all).

 

I have to rather strongly disagree with you.

 

The Oblivion Crisis ended with no heir to the throne and a massive destabilization of the Empire. A series of disasters like the eruption of Red Mountain basically destroying Morrowind and cutting off Imperial supply lines to Blackmarsh allowed the Thalmor to incite Blackmarsh into rebellion. Ocato gets assassinated shortly after and the whole Empire plunges into civil war, with the Summerset Isle first to go.

 

Titus Mede seizes the crown and begins to stabalize the Empire, but he is not quick enough to prevent Thalmor insurgents from sending Valenwood into guerrilla rebellion. That doesn't make him and his descendents "fake Emperors". It makes them human ones, with none of the divine blood and divine favour the Septims enjoyed.

 

Titus Mede II eventually inherits a weakened Empire and continues to stabilize it until the Thalmor invade without warning, with likely years of planning and stockpiling behind them. Yet despite overwhelming odds being stacked against him, Titus successfully manages to break a large portion of the Thalmor armies in the Battle of the Red Ring. He gambles at temporary peace to give the Legions time to rebuild because not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. This doesn't make him weak, or ineffectual. It makes him farsighted and willing to endure short term humiliation for survival and eventual victory.

 

Of course, the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai makes me wonder if they could have won eventual victory if they continued to fight or if they'd have lost because of the easy accessibility of Cyrodil's heartlands as compared to Hammerfell's deserts, but that still doesn't mean that Mede was stupid, and it certainly doesn't make him corrupt.

 

In fact, most of the players in Skyrim's civil war can be forgiven when you realize that you're basically in a situation where legions have been at constant war for more than half a decade. It makes you harder and more ruthless, and given to expediency. Tullius needs to win the war at almost any cost, because the deadline for redeclaring war on the Thalmor inches closer and the Empire cannot afford a rebellious Skyrim.

[imperistan]

No, the Mede Empire is an illegitimate one if we want to put any stock at all in the Septim Empire (Which is what ever Empire supporter is doing. They aren't basing their opinions on the Empire now, they're basing it on the Empire that was, and that one is dead).

 

And as for the War of the Red Ring, he did not make any sort of logical decision at all when he came up with the Concordat (Yes, it was HIS idea, not the Dominion's). He spent the greater part of that battle cutting his way through the entirety of the Dominion's forces in Cyrodiil (to the point where every last Dominion soldier in the province was dead when the war ended) and after he finished, it was literally a matter of 1-2 days before he decided to do the exact opposite of every other war leader whose engaged in a similar conflict and gave his enemy the spoils of war. The Empire had the right to dictate the terms of peace, and for all the Dominion would have known, not to accept them would have meant even further annihilation.

 

In all honesty, I'm sure it was a big surprise for the Dominion when they were approached with the Concordat. I mean, its not like they didn't just lose not only a massive portion of their entire army in what was a single battle against a united and organized force of Legion. What the Dominion faced when the Great War began was a far cry from what came down upon them during the War of the Red Ring.

 

If you ever watched the movie 300, then the difference would literally be like how the normal Greeks fought compared to the Spartans.

[sajuukkhar9000]

-And as for the War of the Red Ring, he did not make any sort of logical decision at all when he came up with the Concordat (Yes, it was HIS idea, not the Dominion's).

 

-He spent the greater part of that battle cutting his way through the entirety of the Dominion's forces in Cyrodiil (to the point where every last Dominion soldier in the province was dead when the war ended) and after he finished,

 

-it was literally a matter of 1-2 days before he decided to do the exact opposite of every other war leader whose engaged in a similar conflict and gave his enemy the spoils of war. The Empire had the right to dictate the terms of peace, and for all the Dominion would have known, not to accept them would have meant even further annihilation.

 

-In all honesty, I'm sure it was a big surprise for the Dominion when they were approached with the Concordat. I mean, its not like they didn't just lose not only a massive portion of their entire army in what was a single battle against a united and organized force of Legion. What the Dominion faced when the Great War began was a far cry from what came down upon them during the War of the Red Ring.

-False, all demands within the concordant were demands that Titus Mede II refused to follow when the Dominion's ambassador come to Cyrodiil with the heads of all Blades agents in the Dominion's lands. He did not make it up, he simply signed it.

 

-Also false, nothing states every Dominion solider in Cyrodiil was dead, just that the army was destroyed, meaning it was broken.

 

-The difference between Mede's situation, and that of other leaders in history, is that all of Mede's lands were destroyed to the point of being unusable, and if he continued the war, he would be forced to split his already nearly nonexistent armed forces between rebuilding the province, and trying to hold off The Dominion, who had just as many forces left, and untouched lands, meaning the Dominion had a clear advantage because they had no need to divert men to rebuilding. Titus Mede's victory was totally phyrric, he won, but he got nothing but a destroyed, nearly unusable, province from it.

 

Both sides new this, Titus had no power to dictate anything, as anyone could see that if he continued the war, it would only go into a stalemate for years, with The Dominion eventually winning.

 

-I find this doubtful also, if anything, i bet they expected it, they knew they still had the advantage, and they knew Mede knew it also.

[imperistan]

- Wrong. The Concordat, while nearly identical to the original ultimatum given by the Dominion, is NOT that ultimatum. They are two different things. And either way, it was still his idea to allow the Dominion those spoils after he cut his way through thousands upon thousands of their soldiers.

 

- Wrong.

 

 

 

In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed.

 

They were clearly all dead, otherwise there would be no reason to use the word "completely". And I see no reason for the writer to embellish or glorify what happened either, considering he didn't seem to be all too happy with what happened any way.

 

- Wrong. High Rock and Skyrim were fine. Yes Cyrodiil was ravaged completely, and Hammerfel was still at war, but thats no reason to do what he did. As I've said countless times before, I am not suggesting that he could nor should have invaded the Dominion at the time. But he could have stopped any further incursions into Cyrodiil, and with two provinces still untouched by the war it wouldn't have been that hard to bring resources down to protect the border in the meantime.

 

And also, again as I've stated before, I have no issue with him ending the war at the time that he did. I just take issue with the fact that he spent literally no time looking at his assets and what was going on in the next province over before he decided to call for peace. And even THEN, went on to broker a peace that made the entire war POINTLESS.

 

If he was so dumb as to give the Dominion everything they wanted in the first place after going through an entire bloody war with them (WHEN HE WON), and we're going to presume he did it to save lives, then he would have saved more lives if he never said no.

 

If the goal is to spare poor old Cyrodiil (as thats clearly all he looked at in making his decision), then he should never have let the war begin, he should have bowed down and cowered and gave the Dominion everything, because he ended up doing so anyway.

 

And while Cyrodiil was ravaged, to say it was nearly unusable is morbidly obese. The Imperial City was completely sacked yes, but it wasn't like the Dominion enacted a slash and burn policy. Cyrodiil's farmland (that weren't used as sites for battles anyway) would have still been intact, and really the only part of Cyrodiil that could say to be near irreversibly ravaged outside of the Imperial City itself would have been the shore lines of the Niben and Lake Rumare, where the main battles of the Great War in Cyrodiil prior the the War of the Red Ring occurred. But I can't imagine that outside of Bravil and some small villages that Cyrodiil would be that badly affected. (Hell, we even see in lore that apparently Bravil isn't doing very well even now, so this may be the case)

 

Even Layawiin, being the first city struck by the Dominion would still be in a fair position because I can't imagine that the the sea would have been completely ravaged by this war (which I would think seems to be the main economic source for the town, being a port and all)

 

- The war in Hammerfel proves that a stalemate would have resulted in nothing for either side. But thats without considering the fact that the Empire would have more provinces to draw resources from. (The Dominion isn't very large, and most of its forces and resources would have originated in Valenwood, with possible help from the Elsweyr kingdoms. One province can't quite out-support two, particularly with the Dominion suffering greater losses and an inherent strategic downfall as time went on)

 

Yes you can call hindsight, but fact of the matter is that when the War of the Red Ring started, the forces in Hammerfel were already starting to push the Dominion back across the Alik'r. By the time the War of the Red Ring was over, if Mede had taken the time to take in and assess the totality of his assets, then I'm sure it would have been clear to him that Hammerfel was proving itself self-reliant in fighting the Dominion. That a fractured Legion and whatever militia could be raised could even accomplish as much as they did at the time would have been enough to convince most that continuing the war, if only for just a bit longer, would prove more beneficial for the Empire.

 

- They had no advantage. Hammerfel proves this. Hammerfel's forces were no better than Cyrodiil's, and they fought the Dominion off for 5 years.