Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LobselVith66]

I think it's funny that you keep berating others for interpreting character opinions as facts and just ignore the facts that have been given in favor of the Empire. Did Ulfric say he hates anyone that's not a Nord? YES! Tell all those Argonians and Khajiit that he refuses to even let into Windhelm that he doesn't hate non-Nords! And again, you're ignoring what many have stated about the Empire's relationship with the Thalmor: In the game, there doesn't appear to be anyone deluded enough to think that there won't be another war between those two sooner or later. Pretty much everyone openly admits, be they Imperials or Stormcloaks or Thalmor or farmers, that one way or another, that conflict will start up again. This isn't opinion based on player observations from outside the game, this is a fact stated by several in-game individuals, regardless of allegiance.

 

When did Ulfric say that? Because all you cite is the Dunmer living in the Gray Quarter and the Argonians living on the docks. You realize the Legion appointed Jarl doesn't allow Argonians into Windhelm, either, because it's too dangerous for them in the city? And the Legion appointed Jarl doesn't focus resources on the Gray Quarter, either, because there are other pressing concerns. And what everyone thinks may happen isn't a fact about what will happen. What we know is that one province - Hammerfell - was able to hold their ground. I don't see why the same couldn't be possible for Skyrim when the Stormcloaks are clearly focused on defeating the Thalmor.

[LobselVith66]

The 8th legion was destroyed doing a rear guard action while the emperor retreated from the IC. The soldiers left behind were discharged veterans from the failed campaign to expel the Thalmor from Hammerfell. Saying it was the empire that drove them out is disingenuous since the empire renounced its ties after the people and the vets rebelled. At that point, Hammerfell really was on its own.

 

Thank you. In addition, Ulfric didn't "kick up a fuss," the Empire offered him religious freedom in exchange for taking back the Reach from the Forsworn, and betrayed him when the Thalmor found out and demanded his arrest - according to the pro-Legion Jarl of Markarth. This is explained as the inception to the Stormcloak rebellion, which contradicts the Bear of Markarth book written by a scholar who wasn't actually privy to what actually happened.

Edited December 23, 2011 by LobselVith66

[justwannaddl]

 

Correct, the 8th held the rearguard. That was an obvious mistake on my part.

 

Incorrect, the Redguard expelled the Domminion on their own. The quote above clearly says otherwise.

 

Epilogue: Hammerfell Fights On Alone

 

Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.

 

In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.

 

 

While General Decimus can be credited for leaving troops there, the veterans who were left behind were not only no longer officially fighting for the Imperial Legion after the treaty, they were effectively disavowed. The Redguard did not defeat the Thalmor alone but in the end, it was Hammerfell, the Alik'r warriors and the former members of the Imperial Legions left behind, who drove the Thalmor out. Officially, the empire cut its losses and ran.

[Lachdonin]

We shall agree to dissagree on simantics in that case. To me, once a legionaire, always a legionarie. Said soldiers, it is alluded to, were also acting under orders. However, i agree they were not officially acting on behalf of the Empire.

[RighthandofSithis]

Id' Like to just add my two cents again. I'd like to point out that the established point that the Empire can provide a united front to oppose the Thalmor is logical. However, supporters of the Stormcloaks also have a valid point to make.

 

Empires collapse. Look at history, Both Real and Tamrielic. The Third Empire (the Current one) Has existed for over 600 years (the exact formation of the Empire may vary from one persons opinion to another). To put this into perspective, Ivan the Fourth was crowned Grand Prince of Moscow in 1533. From then he had conquered Modern Russia and some other states to form the Russian Empire. This Empire had lasted until 1917 with the Russian Revolution. This puts the Russian Empire as lasting for 384 years. Another example is the Roman Empire (Which the Cyrodiilics are largely based on). Assuming the Empire started with Julius Caesar (Really he was a dictator, the first Emperor was Augustus, his adopted son). Caesar took power in 44BC. The exact year the Western Roman Empire fell is still being debated, but we shall assume it fell in 476AD. This places the Western Roman Empire as having lasted for 520 years.

 

The Third Empire has out lived these two examples, meaning it is likely on the verge of collapse itself. This is furthered by the Empire facing both external and internal threats (The loss of Hammerfell, the Stormcloak rebellion and the civil strife in Cyrodiil), its military is far stretched (possibly beyond sustainable means) and it's economy is likely waning as a result of these pressures.

 

When the Empire collapses, the economies of all the provinces within it and rely on it, will collapse, meaning they will not be able to sustain their own armed forces (High Rock is an exception, it has proven to be able to simply return to its feudal system). This means that the only powers left that could have any chance to oppose to oppose the Thalmor in any way would be Hammerfell and High Rock. High Rock may be able to boast it's armies and battlemages, But how effected they will be by their own feudal wars cannot be predicted as of yet, and while the Redguards are mightly warriors, it is not known if their own economy has recovered from their war with the Thalmor (and if it has, it is unlikely to be able to match that of the Aldmeri Dominion).

 

However, it may be possible to extend the life of the Empire. The Second Empire was looking like it would fall after the assassination of Reman III and his heirs, but the Akaviri Potentates where able to extend the life of the Empire by sacrificing it's best legions and ruling with an Iron Fist. This made the Second Empire last for 648 years before the Potentate and his heirs where all assassinated. However, the current Empire cannot spare any of its soldiers, and it would be hypocritical of anyone who has used Ulfric's racism and firm rule as an argument in support of the Empire to support brutal repression by the Imperials.

 

However, I have recently completed the Stormcloak questline. When the Imperials are defeated, Ulfric intends to rebuild Skyrim's economy and it's armies so as to be able to make Skyrim the 'cradle of mankind' once again and then intents to confront the Aldmeri Dominion. And I believe that this is what will happen. He had even placed Galmar in charge of the rebuilding to ensure this. And the common perception that Skyrim will descend into chaos overlooks what Skyrim was before the War of Succession, and what it was afterward. While the Nord character is warlike, it is unlikely that they will war amongst themselves, having all accepted and supported Ulfric (If anything, they will start the war with the Thalmor).

 

This means that instead of having only two powers capable of confronting the Dominion, there are three, possibly four if the Cyrodiilic counties are able reform. And it is still likely that they will unite against the Thalmor, despite their differences (look at WW2, The USSR and the Western Allies where both pretty much mortal enemies, but they united against the Axis threat). And that's only based on conventional warfare. The Thalmor have won a number of enemies in their own lands with their various purges (and the Psijic Order). It would not be hard for humanity to win over the hearts and minds of the people of the Dominion (again look at WW2. Even though the Red Army was butchering civilians, the people of Warsaw where with them before they had reached their city).

[bombomb]

I've done both story-lines,and it seems like Ulfric is a power hungry jerk.

 

First off, the guy kills High King Torygg. Ulfric said it was a fair duel, but why would he kill Torygg, and then rush out the main gate to avoid capture? If he truly believed in his own cause, he should just got caught and got executed for it. At least, he would have been a full martyr. No, instead , he has a poor, old guy named Roggvir set up to save his ass. by opening the gates for his escape. Ulfric never gives alms to the poor guy, even though he got executed for aiding his escape. It just seems he was a means to an end.

 

To add, Ulfric Stormcloak leaves a terrible precedent for the succession of power. Ulfric's ideology is that if you disagree with the guy in charge , just challenge him and kill him for his seat. The Empire offers a better solution by passing on power though family succession, which isn't necessarily perfect, but for the most part prevents bloodshed. Ulfric's approach to independent sovereignty, murdering to usurp power, is the "powder bomb" that leads to the Civil War. Ironically, his Civil War is killing the very thing he preaches about that his cause is protecting : Talos's legacy.

 

 

There's also the fact that Ulfric has committed war crimes against the native people of the Reach; Ulfric's militias ethnically cleansed them from their land.

 

Spoiler: The natives of the Reach , who survived Ulfric's genocidal onslaught, are the Forsworn.

 

So, he's even more hypocritical than the Empire, so don't buy into his victim card. Don't believe his petty speeches. He's just brainwashing the Stormcloaks into a cause that only benefits himself, and his echelon.

 

 

Now for the Empire, they to have a lot to answer. They don't have answer for banning Talos, because that actually SAVED lives, something Ulfric never did unless his ass was on the line.

 

There's definitely corruption in the Empire, that Imperial captain who ordered to cut your head off.... with no probable cause... yeah I could see why that would make you join the Stormcloaks. Even more so, the General doesn't even try reverse order. The fact that Maven Black Briar becomes the Jarl of Riften after you win the Civil War.... come on. Justice is obviously blind here, but we must understand these are individuals that are corrupt, and must be treated individually.

 

You could say you could apply that property of individualism to Ulfric. However, Ulfric's ideology revolves around the supremacy of Nordic race, and he'll destroy any other race that isn't Nordic indiscriminately to reach that goal. You could most certainly parallel Ulfric to Adolf Hitler in this sense because he has used military force to enforce his ideology before for Nordic supremacy.

 

 

He's DAMN sure not the kind of guy you want running a government. Emperor Tidus Mede II is light years ahead , in honor , compared to him. If you choose the Dark Brotherhood's story line, you know that without a doubt. Even if you haven't, given the fact that guy wouldn't sacrifice legionaries to keep, fighting a pointless war, and let an Empire live yet another day shows he understand what it means to be a true leader; to make choices that benefit the people you rule under, and not only yourself.

 

 

Sorry for typos

Edited December 26, 2011 by bombomb

[RighthandofSithis]

I'm not sure if you're replying to me bombom, so I'll reply to your post as if you are replying to me. (Sorry if you where not, I just can't give up a debate).

 

I am not disputing Ulfric's personal desire for power. Some who support him also share that belief. However, it has been proven that he has the dedication and will to lead (as shown by his study of the Thum). And I have no intention of disputing his past. There are many versions of Ulfric's duel with Torygg. Stormcloak supporters give their version, Imperial supporters give their version. Both are likely biased and representative of their viewpoints (therefore it is not possible to establish exactly what happened). Neither shall I argue his slaughter at the Reach.

 

I will say this however. He is a patriot. His views are based on Nordic nationalism and tradition. He respects the legacy of Ysgrammor, and his beliefs are representative of the dominant Nordic views (which are xenophobic, as with many of the races of Tamriel [the Redguards, the Dunmer, the Argonians]). I shall give an analogy. His dislike of the Dunmer and the Argonians is similar to the western dislike of immigrants, particularly Muslims, by conservatives (Albeit, he is a bit more extreme. And also, I am not intending to offend anyone). Immigrants are often ridiculed for their beliefs, and bringing their culture with them. Conservatives want (some even demand) they drop their customs and adopt western traditions. You do not seriously compare conservatives to Nazis (but some do disagree with their beliefs) (Again, I wish to say this is a generalisation, I don't want to offend anyone). The Thalmor are more like the nazis, as they seriously support Ethnic superiority and the cleansing of Ethnicities and religions. And the Justiciars can be compared to the SS in this regard. They also hold concentration camps where they hold their political enemies. In fact, the only way I cannot see the Thalmor as being fascist, is that their leadership comes from the Intelligentsia and not the military (Albeit, they could be battlemages or some-such).

 

And saying Ulfric is fascist because he enforces his ideology with military force, you say that the US is fascist (the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan), that the UK and Ireland are fascist, that any civil war is fascist, that the crusades where fascist etc. (You did say he had a parallel, it's just that I'm getting tired.)

 

And if you are hell-bent on believing Ulfric is a Nazi, then remember Erwin Rommel was a military genius of the Third Reich, and pioneer of the Blitzkrieg tactic. However, he was opposed to the Nazi ethnic cleansing regime. So as you say, individuals are corrupt and must be treated individually.

[Astaril]

For me The Stormcloaks are the bad guys so I am on the side of the Empire all the way!

I love the way Bethesda have done this as you start the game thinking the Stormcloaks are the good guys but when you read books and speak to people you soon realise that it is not so simplistic.

 

Delving into it I have discovered...

The Legion is the only chance Skyrim has of keeping the Falmor out!

 

The Legion has always been in Skyrim and Tiber Septim himself was a Nord who would be turning in his grave if he knew Ulfric was trying to undo all his hard work.

 

The White Gold Concordat was refused by Titus II at first but his hand was forced due to the terrible state they were in after the great war, he had to make a practical decision that would allow them time to regain strength and this was the only way to stop the fighting, one would hope that once the Empire is safely back together they will recognise Talos again.

 

Ulfric is a murdering cheat, he knew that the High King could not refuse the challenge, (I can't remember the name of it) but because of some kind of vote that left the High King no choice but to accept. He was set up and when he bravely accepted the duel Ulfric cheated by using the Dragon Shout. Hardly a show of strength to use a super power in what is supose to be a duel (fair fight) against a man armed with just a sword.

 

Ulfric is a racist idiot, he wants Skyrim for the Nords only and I haven't done any quests along this line yet but I believe he was also pretty terrible to the Forsworn, and killed lots of woman and children even after they surrendered. (my memory of this is sketchy though)

 

In the opinion of many (even Jarls allied with the Stormcloaks) Ulfric is only out for his own power and many think he will not lead them to this great golden age people are expecting, but to more war.

 

Apart from the part of the White Gold Concordat where they outlaw the worship of Talos, what other good cause do the Stormcloaks have to fight this war? there cause is stupid yet so many have died in this war just to put some racist horrible bigot on the throne.

 

In short the intelligent people in Skyrim will always be on the side of the Legion, because it is the intelligent choice, but sadly some Nords have more brawn than brains. :facepalm:

 

Go Go Legion!!! :dance:

[RighthandofSithis]

In short the intelligent people in Skyrim will always be on the side of the Legion, because it is the intelligent choice, but sadly some Nords have more brawn than brains.

 

 

I find that offensive. You are the one seeing this issue in black and white. You see this as good and evil, when realistically each side have their good and bad points.

 

Ulfric as a person is power hungry. He has committed war crimes against his own people, he is racist, and he seems to hold a firm rule.

 

However, his followers follow him because he is freeing their land from imperialism. He is bringing back their own traditions and government, not those forced upon them by an Empire. He gives voice to the opinions of the Nordic people (and the Nordic people are generally racist). In times of hardship (like 4E 201) it is desirable to have a strong and firm leader (Stalin is like the 5th most popular Russian [even though he was Georgian], as voted by Russians, because he was a strong leader in the times of struggle with the Nazis. This was in 2004 or something).

 

The Empire is multicultural. They believe in trade and wealth. They believe in order.

However, the Empire is, unsurprisingly, imperialist. There is a difference between imperialism and unity. They are right-winged, and support the nobility and the wealthy, and generally ignore the needs of the working classes (example Cidhna mine, they try to take the mine, as they don't want it in Stormcloak hands, but they don't put their foot down and stop the exploitation). They replace those loyal to the Stormcloaks with corrupt puppets that cannot rule the land effectively (look at Siddgeir and Maven Black-Briar).

 

This game was made to represent a real political struggle. There are no good or bad guys and you have to choose one thing you will sacrifice so another thing can prosper. (Albeit, this is nothing compare to a REAL political struggle)

 

PS: The reason I argue so strongly for the stormcloaks is because I see most of the Stormcloak supporters as not really understanding the Elder Scrolls lore, and don't make a good case.

Edited December 26, 2011 by RighthandofSithis

[Lachdonin]

 

I find that offensive. You are the one seeing this issue in black and white. You see this as good and evil, when realistically each side have their good and bad points.

 

Ulfric as a person is power hungry. He has committed war crimes against his own people, he is racist, and he seems to hold a firm rule.

 

However, his followers follow him because he is freeing their land from imperialism. He is bringing back their own traditions and government, not those forced upon them by an Empire. He gives voice to the opinions of the Nordic people (and the Nordic people are generally racist). In times of hardship (like 4E 201) it is desirable to have a strong and firm leader (Stalin is like the 5th most popular Russian [even though he was Georgian], as voted by Russians, because he was a strong leader in the times of struggle with the Nazis. This was in 2004 or something).

 

The Empire is multicultural. They believe in trade and wealth. They believe in order.

However, the Empire is, unsurprisingly, imperialist. There is a difference between imperialism and unity. They are right-winged, and support the nobility and the wealthy, and generally ignore the needs of the working classes (example Cidhna mine, they try to take the mine, as they don't want it in Stormcloak hands, but they don't put their foot down and stop the exploitation). They replace those loyal to the Stormcloaks with corrupt puppets that cannot rule the land effectively (look at Siddgeir and Maven Black-Briar).

 

This game was made to represent a real political struggle. There are no good or bad guys and you have to choose one thing you will sacrifice so another thing can prosper. (Albeit, this is nothing compare to a REAL political struggle)

 

PS: The reason I argue so strongly for the stormcloaks is because I see most of the Stormcloak supporters as not really understanding the Elder Scrolls lore, and don't make a good case.

 

I agree with this, with the exception of the notion that the Empire is a right wing 'for the rich' government. I say this because i don't feel the governing system in Skyrim is representitive of the 'Imperial Government'. By and large, prevous games have shown that Provinces maintain their own internal governments, with imperial oversight. They didn't just put in an Imperial Governor in Skyrim, they kept the Jarl system in place. Similarly, we know Summerset maintained its High King and family system, Morrowind kept its great-houses and so forth. As such, the actions of individual Jarls is more their own responsibility than the Empires.

 

I do agree there seems to be some... Issues in some captured Holds though. At the same time, the whole Maven Blackbriar and Riften thing is one of the absolute worst story elements i have EVER seen in a TES game. I think this is more just absolutely piss poor writing than a bad representation of the Empire.

 

The Empire follows the 'trickle down theory'. That is, if lords and prominant figures are prosperous, the people below them must be as well. It doesn't always work, but it seems to be somewhat more reliable in the TES universe than in our own. This is evident in the fact that the Provinces, under the Empire, have been shown to be more prosperous than ever before, with the possible exceptions of Summerset (Which used to be the focal pont of everything) and Blackmarsh (Which they never really controlled anyway).

 

It really all boils down to one question. Liberty vs Stability. Would you rather freedom for freedom's sake taking with it the uncertianty that comes with it, or sacrifice some freedom for the security and prosperity which comes with the Empire?