Imperial VS Stormcloak

[djinx187]

Would you really want to follow an army named after one man? What would happen if he died Galmar would be in command? That isn't a scary thought. The stormcloak's would end real quick after Ulfric is killed while the death of an emperor honestly the effects wouldn't be as harsh to the empire. Even the stormcloak oath irk's me more then the imperial one.

 

Maven becoming the jarl actually makes sense since she is supposed to have strong ties with the empire otherwise you really think the db or thieves guild have any real use for a brewery owner? ( I mean seriously it has got to be the only reason she has been alive for so long )

[bombomb]

I'm not sure if you're replying to me bombom, so I'll reply to your post as if you are replying to me. (Sorry if you where not, I just can't give up a debate).

 

I am not disputing Ulfric's personal desire for power. Some who support him also share that belief. However, it has been proven that he has the dedication and will to lead (as shown by his study of the Thum). And I have no intention of disputing his past. There are many versions of Ulfric's duel with Torygg. Stormcloak supporters give their version, Imperial supporters give their version. Both are likely biased and representative of their viewpoints (therefore it is not possible to establish exactly what happened). Neither shall I argue his slaughter at the Reach.

 

 

He's only dedicated to the cause because he believes he can snatch power from a weakened government. He's a great actor, orator, but not a great leader. A great leader doesn't run from an Empire, and start a rebellion to push his own jingoistic goals. Great leaders are like Gandhi and Martin Luther King. These people who actually used NON-violent measures to get their point across. You can't argue his slaughter of the Reach, It's one of Ulfric's skeletons that he tends to hide from his followers.

 

 

I will say this however. He is a patriot. His views are based on Nordic nationalism and tradition. He respects the legacy of Ysgrammor, and his beliefs are representative of the dominant Nordic views (which are xenophobic, as with many of the races of Tamriel [the Redguards, the Dunmer, the Argonians]). I shall give an analogy. His dislike of the Dunmer and the Argonians is similar to the western dislike of immigrants, particularly Muslims, by conservatives (Albeit, he is a bit more extreme. And also, I am not intending to offend anyone). Immigrants are often ridiculed for their beliefs, and bringing their culture with them. Conservatives want (some even demand) they drop their customs and adopt western traditions. You do not seriously compare conservatives to Nazis (but some do disagree with their beliefs) (Again, I wish to say this is a generalisation, I don't want to offend anyone). The Thalmor are more like the nazis, as they seriously support Ethnic superiority and the cleansing of Ethnicities and religions. And the Justiciars can be compared to the SS in this regard. They also hold concentration camps where they hold their political enemies. In fact, the only way I cannot see the Thalmor as being fascist, is that their leadership comes from the Intelligentsia and not the military (Albeit, they could be battlemages or some-such).

 

 

It's not quite nationalism. Nationalism is supporting your nation. In a sense, the nation that rules Skyrim is the Empire. Ulfric is using Jingoism. Jingoism is a extreme from of nationalism that includes racism, and discrimination against other races. Ulfric isn't a patriot by using this war, he's being a mass murder who wishes to push forward his agenda a master race supremacy for the Nords.

And saying Ulfric is fascist because he enforces his ideology with military force, you say that the US is fascist (the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan), that the UK and Ireland are fascist, that any civil war is fascist, that the crusades where fascist etc. (You did say he had a parallel, it's just that I'm getting tired.)

 

I said Ulfric is fascist for using military force to enforce genocide. True, to extend, all of the countries above have done so to other races. However, this is relevant because we're comparing the Empire to Ulfric. We're comparing High King Torygg/ Emperor Titus Mede II to Ulfric. Compared to these people, during their rules, they've only used military force to protect their people. Ulfric used military force to kill anybody who wasn't a Nord or didn't agree with his ideals.

 

And if you are hell-bent on believing Ulfric is a Nazi, then remember Erwin Rommel was a military genius of the Third Reich, and pioneer of the Blitzkrieg tactic. However, he was opposed to the Nazi ethnic cleansing regime. So as you say, individuals are corrupt and must be treated individually.

 

This is irrelevant because we're talking about Ulfric. Ulfric is DOING the ethnic cleansing, and he LIKES/HAS done it. So, that doesn't make any sense.

 

Sorry for typos

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2011 by bombomb

[bombomb]

Would you really want to follow an army named after one man? What would happen if he died Galmar would be in command? That isn't a scary thought. The stormcloak's would end real quick after Ulfric is killed while the death of an emperor honestly the effects wouldn't be as harsh to the empire. Even the stormcloak oath irk's me more then the imperial one.

 

Maven becoming the jarl actually makes sense since she is supposed to have strong ties with the empire otherwise you really think the db or thieves guild have any real use for a brewery owner? ( I mean seriously it has got to be the only reason she has been alive for so long )

 

 

Maven is corrupt so, it's one of the Empires short comings. Although, ironically, she does know how to make money so she does help the people of Rift....

Edited December 27, 2011 by bombomb

[Astaril]

I find that offensive. You are the one seeing this issue in black and white. You see this as good and evil, when realistically each side have their good and bad points.

 

I am sorry if I offended but it was not intended. I mearly answered the OPs question about which side to choose. It is hard to communicate your humour and intention over text sometimes but I meant my answer to sound more like a campaign to persuade people why they should choose the Imperials over the Stormcloaks. I did not mean it to sound too serious and it was meant to be biased towards the Imperials, deliberately black and white.

 

I certainly did not mean that PLAYERS who choose to do the Stormcloaks quests are stupid, I intend to do the Stormcloak questline with one of my characters, so I would only be calling myself stupid there!

 

Having said this, I do stand by my opinion that in lore The Imperials are the lesser of the two evils, and your arguments have not persuaded me otherwise, while I recognise that the Empire is far from perfect I think it is a better cause than that of The Stormcloaks which is a rather weak one. The Empire did once bring peace and prosperity to the nations of Tamriel and it could do so again. If The Stormcloaks were to succeed, there would be only one winner "The Thalmor"

 

In times of hardship (like 4E 201) it is desirable to have a strong and firm leader (Stalin is like the 5th most popular Russian [even though he was Georgian], as voted by Russians, because he was a strong leader in the times of struggle with the Nazis. This was in 2004 or something)

.

 

Ulfric is not a strong leader, he is a coward a cheat, a liar and a .. fleer (if that is a word) a horrible bully who will kill anyone who doesn't agree with him, if he were to win there would just be another civil war against the none Nordic population as he would drive them out, and then who knows what? What province would trade with Skyrim after this? It would only lead to a huge economic down turn and then probably famine and extreme poverty.

This is when the Thalmor would strike!

Ulfric win = disaster for Skyrim!

Imperial win = not perfect but some hope for Skyrim!

[djinx187]

oh I know that I'm just sick of seeing the "piss poor writing" part about it :P They fit her in quite well with the whole scheme of things. She knows how to make money, how to use her assets to the fullest, how to lead, how to thrive when times are bad. She maybe corrupt but at the end of the day she would know how to run things for the better. She has had people killed who had got in her way but she still hasn't committed genocide like some other jarls we know.

[Lachdonin]

oh I know that I'm just sick of seeing the "piss poor writing" part about it :P They fit her in quite well with the whole scheme of things. She knows how to make money, how to use her assets to the fullest, how to lead, how to thrive when times are bad. She maybe corrupt but at the end of the day she would know how to run things for the better. She has had people killed who had got in her way but she still hasn't committed genocide like some other jarls we know.

 

The poor writing stems from the fact that she is overylt corrupt. Its not like shes playing the game well, she stands there and says "I'm rich, i'm powerful, get in my way and i'll have someone kill you". Its not an underlieing "People who get in her way wind up dead" type of thing, she comes out and tells you, to your face.

 

Shes just too overtly corrupt for any of her character to make sense.

[djinx187]

Overtly that really depends on how you look at it. Coming from the PC's view then it would be obvious since well your interacting with her and her associates at one point in the game. Other then those that are privy to the information they wouldn't know for sure. Yeah rumors may pop up now and again but it really isn't that obvious. Law-giver thinks that she is putting the thieves guild behind bars. You basically have to learn about maven's dirtiness because you have to go through that part of the main quest in that sense they screwed up since you are pretty much forced fed(that is another pet peeve of mine for skyrim as well but that's for another post. the information. She isn't anymore corrupt then oh say a US Senator. She really reminds me of a lobbyist more then anything else. You get vague glimpses that she is powerful influential person for the empire before you learn she is corrupt. You get the idea that she is a big part of two pretty nasty organizations when in all reality she really is just an important client. At least that's what I got out of it. If your looking from just the player's point of view and don't look at her interactions with the world then yeah people would be right but when you look at the big picture well I see the writing differently.

[LobselVith66]

 

I've done both story-lines,and it seems like Ulfric is a power hungry jerk.

 

First off, the guy kills High King Torygg. Ulfric said it was a fair duel, but why would he kill Torygg, and then rush out the main gate to avoid capture?

 

Because the Empire tried to arrest him, despite the fact that Torygg accepted the duel, which neither side contests. Even Solitude's court mage attests to this, and the fact that Torygg agreed precisely because refusing the challenge could have lead to a new Moot, with Torygg losing his position as High King.

 

 

If he truly believed in his own cause, he should just got caught and got executed for it.

 

Which should he die when he didn't commit a crime? Are you seriously berating Ulfric for not letting the Empire kill him?

 

 

At least, he would have been a full martyr. No, instead , he has a poor, old guy named Roggvir set up to save his ass. by opening the gates for his escape. Ulfric never gives alms to the poor guy, even though he got executed for aiding his escape. It just seems he was a means to an end.

 

Roggvir isn't some "poor, old guy," he seemed to be middle-aged, and according to at least one person he was a malevolent person to a former childhood friend of his.

 

 

To add, Ulfric Stormcloak leaves a terrible precedent for the succession of power. Ulfric's ideology is that if you disagree with the guy in charge , just challenge him and kill him for his seat.

 

Actually, that's part of Nordic tradition - you can challenge the ruling High King. This isn't a precedent that starts with Ulfric - it started a long time ago, which is why the precedent exists for Ulfric to challenge Torygg.

 

 

The Empire offers a better solution by passing on power though family succession, which isn't necessarily perfect, but for the most part prevents bloodshed.

 

The Dark Brotherhood would like to have a word with you about that.

 

 

Ulfric's approach to independent sovereignty, murdering to usurp power, is the "powder bomb" that leads to the Civil War. Ironically, his Civil War is killing the very thing he preaches about that his cause is protecting : Talos's legacy.

 

Talos' legacy is being subverted by the Thalmor, who have full impunity over civilians throughout the Empire.

 

 

There's also the fact that Ulfric has committed war crimes against the native people of the Reach; Ulfric's militias ethnically cleansed them from their land.

 

According to a book that makes claims that are disputed by people who were living in the Reach, including Jarl Igmund, who sided with the Legion against Ulfric.

 

 

Spoiler: The natives of the Reach , who survived Ulfric's genocidal onslaught, are the Forsworn.

 

According to several people who were actually living in the Reach, as opposed to the author of "The Markarth Bear," Ulfric was sent in to reclaim the Reach because the Empire offered religious freedom in exchange; when the Thalmor found out, Ulfric was arrested instead of the Empire keeping its word.

 

 

So, he's even more hypocritical than the Empire, so don't buy into his victim card. Don't believe his petty speeches. He's just brainwashing the Stormcloaks into a cause that only benefits himself, and his echelon.

 

The Stormcloaks want religious freedom, and to remove the Thalmor from any position of authority within Skyrim. That's also what Ulfric wants, which is why people are following him.

 

 

Now for the Empire, they to have a lot to answer. They don't have answer for banning Talos, because that actually SAVED lives, something Ulfric never did unless his ass was on the line.

 

While it saved the Empire, it didn't save the lives of the people who were subsequetly kidnapped, tortured, and killed by the Thalmor.

 

 

There's definitely corruption in the Empire, that Imperial captain who ordered to cut your head off.... with no probable cause... yeah I could see why that would make you join the Stormcloaks. Even more so, the General doesn't even try reverse order. The fact that Maven Black Briar becomes the Jarl of Riften after you win the Civil War.... come on. Justice is obviously blind here, but we must understand these are individuals that are corrupt, and must be treated individually.

 

You could say you could apply that property of individualism to Ulfric. However, Ulfric's ideology revolves around the supremacy of Nordic race, and he'll destroy any other race that isn't Nordic indiscriminately to reach that goal.

 

I'm pretty sure the Dunmer are still living in his city, and so are the Argonians. Ulfric doesn't try to kill people simply for not being Nords, he wants to deal with the Thalmor for wanting to destroy existance as they know it.

 

 

You could most certainly parallel Ulfric to Adolf Hitler in this sense because he has used military force to enforce his ideology before for Nordic supremacy.

 

You realize that comparison makes no sense, right? Ulfric doesn't remove the Dunmer or the Argonians living in Windhelm, he doesn't try to exterminate people for not being Nords, and he has no problem with the protagonist not being a Nord, either. The protagonist also isn't the only non-Nord that can become a Stormcloak, either.

 

 

He's DAMN sure not the kind of guy you want running a government. Emperor Tidus Mede II is light years ahead , in honor , compared to him. If you choose the Dark Brotherhood's story line, you know that without a doubt.

 

Titus Mede and Ulfric both accept their deaths with dignity, as you'd know if you played through the ending of the Battle for Windhelm.

 

 

Even if you haven't, given the fact that guy wouldn't sacrifice legionaries to keep, fighting a pointless war, and let an Empire live yet another day shows he understand what it means to be a true leader; to make choices that benefit the people you rule under, and not only yourself.

 

I'm sure removing the Thalmor from Skyrim would benefit plenty of people besides Ulfric.

[LobselVith66]

 

For me The Stormcloaks are the bad guys so I am on the side of the Empire all the way!

 

I don't think the Empire or the Stormcloaks are the bad guys. Tullius and Ulfric aren't perfect people, they are flawed men who are trying to fulfill goals that they genuinely believe in. Neither leader is some black hat, cartoon villain. Tullius believes in the Empire, while Ulfric thinks that Skyrim needs to be independent of the Empire. I don't see why people try to villify either man to support their respective faction when neither side is a villanous organization.

 

The Empire will continue, regardless of what happens to the Emperor or General Tullius. The same is true for Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, where Tullius contemplates the possibility of Ulfric becoming a maytr if the Dragonborn helps Tullius defeat the Stormcloaks. Neither side is perfect, Tullius has difficulty grasping with Nord ideals and concepts, while Ulfric doesn't pay proper attention to the needs of the non-Nords living in his Hold, but I wouldn't say that either man is racist or a villain. They are flawed, imperfect men. The lore of the Elder Scrolls does provide a myraid of imperfect leaders throughout the years, and the leaders in Skyrim are no different.

 

I like that Skyrim provides an opportunity to side with two factions that are flawed, and have their own respective good points and bad points, each with their good Jarls and bad Jarls. While both sides are opposed to each other, I don't see either side as a villain. They simply have opposing ideologies about Skyrim.

 

 

I love the way Bethesda have done this as you start the game thinking the Stormcloaks are the good guys but when you read books and speak to people you soon realise that it is not so simplistic.

 

You mean like the "Bear of Markarth," which is disputed by all the people who were actually living in the Reach, from one of the Reachmen to the pro-Legion Jarl of Markarth? You shouldn't believe everything you read.

 

 

Delving into it I have discovered...

The Legion is the only chance Skyrim has of keeping the Falmor out!

 

There isn't any evidence that either the Stormcloaks or the Legion can keep out the Falmer, if they intend to invade Skyrim.

 

 

The Legion has always been in Skyrim and Tiber Septim himself was a Nord who would be turning in his grave if he knew Ulfric was trying to undo all his hard work.

 

Why would Tiber Septim be upset that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks don't want to abandon worship of Talos, and want to remove the Thalmor from power within Skyrim?

 

 

The White Gold Concordat was refused by Titus II at first but his hand was forced due to the terrible state they were in after the great war, he had to make a practical decision that would allow them time to regain strength and this was the only way to stop the fighting, one would hope that once the Empire is safely back together they will recognise Talos again.

 

Which may have saved the Empire, but it doesn't mean that Skyrim necessarily has to follow suit, especially since we don't know whether the Empire will proactively fight back against the Thalmor and the Dominion, or if they will allow the status quo to remain until they are specifically threatened by the Dominion.

 

 

Ulfric is a murdering cheat, he knew that the High King could not refuse the challenge, (I can't remember the name of it) but because of some kind of vote that left the High King no choice but to accept. He was set up and when he bravely accepted the duel Ulfric cheated by using the Dragon Shout. Hardly a show of strength to use a super power in what is supose to be a duel (fair fight) against a man armed with just a sword.

 

So it's Ulfric's fault that Torygg accepted a challenge, because Torygg wanted to keep his throne as High King instead of refusing Ulfric's challenge and risk losing only his role as High King? And everyone knew that Ulfric could use the Voice - he used the Voice to defeat the Reachmen and reclaim the Reach for the Empire.

 

 

Ulfric is a racist idiot, he wants Skyrim for the Nords only and I haven't done any quests along this line yet but I believe he was also pretty terrible to the Forsworn, and killed lots of woman and children even after they surrendered. (my memory of this is sketchy though)

 

According to a factually inaccurate book, you mean. And when does Ulfric display his racism? When he allows the Dunmer to remain in Windhelm when he has full authority over his Hold? When he allows the Argonians to remain in Windhelm? When he allows non-Nords into the Stormcloaks? When he displays no problem with a non-Nord protagonist, even inviting him (or her) to purchase a home in Windhelm, and giving him the title of Thane?

 

Tamriel is a continent where many people are generally racist - this is nothing new, especially if you played Morrowind and saw the racism among the myraid of races, and we even saw it in Oblivion (specifically, Leyawiin). Racism is still an issue 200 years after the Oblivion Crisis, and it exists regardless of who you side with in the civil war.

 

 

In the opinion of many (even Jarls allied with the Stormcloaks) Ulfric is only out for his own power and many think he will not lead them to this great golden age people are expecting, but to more war.

 

Let's not misconstrue things here. Opinions about Ulfric Stormcloak vary, just like opinions about the Legion and the Stormcloaks vary.

 

 

Apart from the part of the White Gold Concordat where they outlaw the worship of Talos, what other good cause do the Stormcloaks have to fight this war? there cause is stupid yet so many have died in this war just to put some racist horrible bigot on the throne.

 

I'm sure putting an end to the Thalmor having their way with any citizen of Skyrim would be much appreciated. And Elsif doesn't seem like she would make a competent leader when she can barely handle being Jarl of Solitude, and she would likely be little more than a puppet leader if she gains the throne as High Queen.

 

 

In short the intelligent people in Skyrim will always be on the side of the Legion, because it is the intelligent choice, but sadly some Nords have more brawn than brains.

 

So people who want to remove the Thalmor from Skyrim and have the freedom to worship are not intelligent? Why? Because they don't want the Thalmor to kidnap, torture, and murder people with full impunity from the Empire?

[RighthandofSithis]

It really all boils down to one question. Liberty vs Stability. Would you rather freedom for freedom's sake taking with it the uncertianty that comes with it, or sacrifice some freedom for the security and prosperity which comes with the Empire?

 

As I said above, it is likely the Empire is falling. And if Skyrim does leave the Empire, it with Hammerfell and High Rock (High Rock may not join, but it should. If the Thalmor want to dominate over humanity, they will have to take on High Rock) could be equally capable of defeating the Thalmor as the Empire would, if not more capable. And as I said way way ago, to take over Tamriel, they would have to occupy it while continuing the war effort, or establish very good relations with the people of Tamriel (which would not happen).