Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sajuukkhar9000]

How would he know about the Dragonborn if no one else including the Dragonborn him/herself didn't know? And why would he stop the execution literally 2 seconds before you died? Then proceed to completely ignore you and attack everyone else in Helgen while you escaped?

 

Makes no sense to me.

The Greybeards show that they possess the ability to FEEL the Dovahkiin, from miles off, simply by him absorbing a dragon soul, Durnehviir in the Dawnguard DLC says he feels some desire to call you Vanquisher, after you beat him, and if you haven't found out you are Dragonborn yet, and Miraak in the Dragonborn DLC also feels your Dragonborn power, when you first meet him, he knocks you down and then wonders how you got there, after a few seconds he says "ahh so your the dragonborn" as if it took him a second to feel your power. Dragons and super powerful Thu'um users seem to be able to sense the Dragonborn's power, simply by being near them.

 

Also, he didn't stop anything, his appearance at Helgen right before you got killed was coincidental, you seem to think he intervened right before you got killed on purpose, he did not. furthermore, since your Dragonblood had not yet awakened, he probably only had a vague sense that SOMEONE there was Dragonborn, and was just killing everyone to make sure.

Edited February 11, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kayyyleb]

How would he know about the Dragonborn if no one else including the Dragonborn him/herself didn't know? And why would he stop the execution literally 2 seconds before you died? Then proceed to completely ignore you and attack everyone else in Helgen while you escaped?

 

Makes no sense to me.

The Greybeards show that they possess the ability to FEEL the Dovahkiin, from miles off, simply by him absorbing a dragon soul, Durnehviir in the Dawnguard DLC says he feels some desire to call you Vanquisher, after you beat him, and if you haven't found out you are Dragonborn yet, and Miraak in the Dragonborn DLC also feels your Dragonborn power, when you first meet him, he knocks you down and then wonders how you got there, after a few seconds he says "ahh so your the dragonborn" as if it took him a second to feel your power. Dragons and super powerful Thu'um users seem to be able to sense the Dragonborn's power, simply by being near them.

 

Also, he didn't stop anything, his appearance at Helgen right before you got killed was coincidental, you seem to think he intervened right before you got killed on purpose, he did not. furthermore, since your Dragonblood had not yet awakened, he probably only had a vague sense that SOMEONE there was Dragonborn, and was just killing everyone to make sure.

The Greybeards only felt it after you absorbed a soul which was some time after Helgen. Durnehviir iirc only recognizes your power after encountering you and losing a fight then calls you Quanarin...not Dovakiin. Miraak had already heard about you and could simply have deduced that you would be the one to hunt him down (also possible he could sense it if you activated one of the stones).

 

Then if everyone else can tell who you are simply by being near you why is Alduin (the most powerful dragon) unable to pick you out of a handful of people?

Edited February 11, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Greybeards only felt it after you absorbed a soul which was some time after Helgen. Durnehviir iirc only recognizes your power after encountering you and losing a fight then calls you Quaaranin...not Dovakiin. Miraak had already heard about you and could simply have deduced that you would be the one to hunt him down (also possible he could sense it if you activated one of the stones).

 

Then if everyone else can tell who you are simply by being near you why is Alduin (the most powerful dragon) unable to pick you out of a handful of people?

They Greybeards aren't dragons either.

 

 

Durenhviir actually says

Dragonborn: Why do you call me "Qahnaarin?"

Durenhviir: In my language, the Qahnaarin is the Vanquisher, the one who has bested a fellow dovah in battle.

Dragonborn: Fellow dovah? I am not a dragon

Durenhviir: Forgive me, my instinct was to grant you this title. I am uncertain why. Perhaps one day it will become clear to both of us.

 

 

Miraak says when you first meet him, these words exactly "ahh, you are Dragonborn, I can feel it"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jlXqjuiDeo

 

 

The difference between you, and you in a crowd of people, is the crowd of people. they could feel you because you were the only one around, being in with a bunch of other people would make it harder to pinpoint the source of the feel.

Edited February 11, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kayyyleb]

We're both making pointless speculation.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Dealing with a tyrannical government isnt something you do and expect to be just temporary. The Stormcloaks Soldiers have more will to fight in one finger than the Empire has in all its people. The Empire died with Martin. TMII gets killed and now its a pure power vacuum in the Empire. He surrendered to the elves. The Nords and Redgaurds barely suffered any loses and were willing to continue a campaign of utter and ruthless destruction against the elves.

 

As far as your assertion of 20 legions go, this is not the case, not anymore, and can be found in the wiki's floating around the net. In the days of Uriel Septim there were indeed 20 Legions, 8 from Skyrim, 6 from Hammerfell, and 6 from Cyrodil the rest made up of other parts of the Empire, as well as auxiliaries made up of quasi-indepent parts of the Empire such as Valenwood and Morrowind. The total Strength of the Empire at that time could be counted at about 25 legions in total strength, 20 of which were armed in the Imperial Style, 2 Armies from Valenwood, and 3 Armies, one for each of the Major Houses, from Morrowind, that fought in the Mer style of fighting. Magic, Arrows, and One-handed swords. It's also hinted that Cavalry Auxiliaries were available from many places in the Empire however it's not specific.

 

At the time of the Great War that number had been reduced to 12, 4 from Cyrodil, 4 from Skyrim, 4 from Hammerfell. Numbered from I to XII in that order. 1-4 being from Cyrodil, 4-8 from Skyrim 8-12 from Hammerfell.

 

During the Great War the Cyrodil Legions were decimated, the 3rd Legion was completely wiped out at the Imperial City, and I mean a total loss. The 4th was pinned down at Anvil, and the 1st and 2nd Broke the ring with TMII. The 4th through 8th Legions marched south from Skyrim, leaving behind the Stormcloaks to defend Skyrim; the 8-12 left Hammerfell leaving the Crowns and their Al'kir warriors to defend Hammerfell and surrounded the Imperial City from the North, East, and West. TMII attacked the city with the 1st and 2nd Legions, took the walls and slaughtered the Thalmor Army. So that's where we find ourselves today. Now let’s talk about losses.

 

The 8th through 12th Legions no longer exist. When TMII threw Hammerfell to the wolves, those legions mutinied and returned home to fight another 5 years and successfully defeat the Thalmor, throwing them out of Hammerfell. The 5th - 8th Legions lost half their strength when half of all Nords deserted to follow Ulfric's standard (this is listed too, the Stormcloaks aren't just a militia anymore, they've been reinforced by professional fighters, former members of the Skyrim Legions. So what does that leave the Empire.

 

The 3rd Legion was utterly destroyed, and likely hasn't been reformed as anything like the fighting force it was, at best it's a totally green unit that has seen little if any combat. The 1st and 2nd between the breakthrough and the recapture of the Imperial City could be counted on to field perhaps 50% strength, if that. The 4th Legion is more or less intact, but remains the only completely Cyrodillian Legion left to the Empire to defend the Imperial City. The 5th and 6th Skyrim Legions are likely a combination of those Nords who stayed loyal, and probably came from any of the 4 Skyrim Legions that remained, reforming the 4 Legions into 2. Of those the 5th is most likely staying in Cyrodil with the 4th to Reinforce defenses around the Imperial City. Leaving the 6th as the only Nord Legion left to the Empire that's in anyway intact.

 

The Dunmer Houses are nearly Obliterated, don't expect help from there. Valenwood is in the Hands of the Thalmor, don't expect help from there. The Khajiit Kingdoms are in the Hands of the Thalmor. High Reach and Orisimmer are cut off by Land with Skyrim on One side and Hammerfell on the other, and the Thalmor already have bases there, as they were welcomed by the Half Elven Breton's that inhabit the area. High Rock is Imperial on a map only.

 

Essentially if you combined the 1st and 2nd into an Entire Legion, you'd only have 4 Real Legions Left. The combined First and Second, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th. The fact that the 6th is in Skyrim is basically because that's the only unit that could be spared. Even if the 3rd had been reformed and the First and Second Remained. You'd still only have a total of 6 Legions, 2 of which are half new recruits, one of which is Entirely new recruits. And the Thalmor ready to pounce. The 6th is there because simply, that's all that can be spared. All of this is recorded as canon.

 

The Empire is DEAD.

 

 

In The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind this is a quote from the character Wulf. Wulf is an avatar of Talos.

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf, (An Aspect/ Avatar of Talos/ Tiber Septim), Morrowind, 3E 427

 

This is before Martin and the Oblivion crisis. This is from before the great war. This from before the Empire became a weak shell of a government.

[RighthandofSithis]

DISCUSSION

 

Y U ALWAYS RESTART WHILE I'M AWAY!?

 

Well, anyway, to make this post not entirely pointless, I shall address some points on the previous page.

 

Half? HALF?

 

The Empire has at least 18 numbered legions mentioned in canon and likely more. They sent a single legion to Skyrim and the Stormcloaks are struggling to defeat just that one.

 

In the 200 years since Oblivion (and the 160 years since the novels), it would be fair to say (with The Great War, and its side effects in mind) that these numbers have been significantly reduced. 'The Great War' (Book, that is), states the Empire didn't even have any legions at half strength (and one completely destroyed).

 

 

1) The Emperor tried to give half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, the Redguards said f*** off, seceded, fought another five years, and beat the Thalmor

2) The Emperor gave the Thalmor the right to Police the Empire ( especially Skyrim ) hauling off his subjects without appeal to Imperial Law

3) The Emperor banned the worship of the Founder of the Empire, and a Nord to boot.

Since your post is longer than the fricking bible, I'll just address these.

 

1) The Redguards fought to a temporary draw with half their country still under Thalmor control. They didn't win by a long shot. They seceded from the Empire but ended up with the same result as if they had stayed. Except now they don't have any allies. Brilliant. Now the Stormcloaks want to pull the same idiotic stunt.

 

2) He didn't have a choice. The Empire won a Pyrrhic victory against the Thalmor for the Imperial City and destroyed an entire Thalmor army but that left them bleeding badly. They had to accept the truce to live to fight another day. The Stormcloaks are too emotionally irrational to understand that the truce is temporary and only an Imperial ploy to buy time to win the second war. Instead they're sabotaging the Empire from the rear and only strengthening the Thalmor's position in the big picture. All the Stormcloaks in Skyrim are angry because the Emperor isn't as stupid as they are. There's a reason why Imperials dominated Tamriel for as long as they have: intelligence. Something Stormcloaks severely lack.

 

3) Yeah well tough. The Imperials are planning for the future engagement while the Stormcloaks are just whining about not being able to do what they want in the short term and killing off the very people whose help they'll need to win an ultimate human victory over the Thalmor. Let the Empire win the next war with the Thalmor and the White Gold Concordat will disappear instantly. Or just stab the Empire in the back while the Thalmor hit the front then get enjoy being in the hot seat with a hostile Thalmor army on your border.

 

1. My enemies enemy is my friend. And with the similarities between the Redgurads and Stormcloaks, I think its not unreasonable to think this concept will come into play (hell, even a redguard necromancer [admittedly not representative of the entire redguard population] stated that the Idea has been around for a while).

 

2. And the 38th Parallel was meant to be temporary, along with the division between North And South Vietnam (ended only after a brutal war).

 

With this in mind, the Empire has been so badly damaged (even Imperial supporters, such as Brina Merilis, and Rikke state the Empire hasn't recovered), then they may want to fight the Thalmor, but it would seem they are much more likely to (given their current state) either lay down and A. Die, or B. Become the newest pets of the Thalmor.

 

3. See above, and I'm not over concerned about the whole Talos ban, because (IRL) I'm an atheist.

 

The censorship of sensitive, offensive or revolutionary material is, in my mind, perfectly acceptable, so long as it is done in a manner which supports the facts.

 

*Raises fist into a clenched fist salute*

 

ARISE YE WORKERS FROM YOUR SLUMBER

ARISE YE PRISONERS OF WANT

FOR REASON IN REVOLT NOW THUNDERS

AND AT LAST ENDS THE AGE OF CAN'T

AWAY WITH ALL YOUR SUPERSTITION

SERVILE MASSES ARISE ARISE

WE'LL CHANGE HENCEFORTH THE OLD TRADITION

AND SPURN THE DUST TO WIN THE PRIZE!

 

:tongue:

Edited February 11, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[Loshirai14]

The best thing to do to defeat the Thalmor in this worthless War is to join forces

- Dark Brotherhood will be assassinating the high ranking officials of the Thalmor one by one
- Thieves Guild will be the one stealing the plans
- Stormcloaks and the Legion Combine Forces and train soldiers
- Paarthunax and Odahviing will be the one to convince other dragons to fight with them
- The College of Winterhold will be the one responsible for training Healers and Battle Mages
- The Companions will be the one responsible for training Warriors
- Dawnguard will share their knowledge about crossbows

Edited February 12, 2013 by Loshirai14

[fraquar]

Personally, if they expect to win a war against the Thalmor they need to get Hammerfell back into the fold - and that isn't happening with this Emperor. The Empire in its crippled state is no match for the Thalmor even if they keep Skyrim under their umbrella.

 

They need the Redguards badly, arguably the best warriors in all of Tamriel. We know they won't back down from a fight, even if the their odds going it alone were far worse than the Empire.

[ilikecheese1337]

^ I agree - basically, Tamriel is stuffed unless they can band together. The Thalmor also have political power as well as military - the Khajiit are indebted to them for the Thalmor's claim to have fixed the Void Nights and the White-Gold Concordat basically hands them most of the power they'd have if they did take over the world.

Edited February 12, 2013 by ilikecheese1337

[fraquar]

I'm a firm believer that Tamriel would be stronger in the end if the Stormcloaks won and united Skyrim free of Imperial influence - instead of maintaining the same sad state of business as usual affairs of the Empire. Skyrim and Hammerfell could then form an alliance and create a military centered coalition. Sorry Cyrodill, we tried it your way and the Empire disintegrated because of it - you don't stab your allies in the back. You want to come along fine, but we are doing things differently from now on.

 

When you consider 2/3rds of the Legions in the Great War were from those two territories anyway, it only makes sense that shift in power takes place.

 

They'd need a galvanizing figure to make that happen, and the early returns seem to suggest the Dragonborn would probably have to be that figure.

Edited February 12, 2013 by fraquar