Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

I agree that Elisif isn't really Jarl material on first impressions, though to imply she won't improve in the coming years is a false statement. Leaders are not born in a day. Also with Falk-Firebeard's loyaltly and wisdom in politics, I'm certain Elisif will get the hang of things.

 

I admire her dedication to her people, and was rather upset about the comments that say she's too obssessed with fashion?? I mean, a person can indulge in other thinsgs right? Frow what I've read from those comments that relate about the matter, that's like saying leaders can't have time for themselves.

 

True, leaders are not born immediatly. But until they can lead, they shouldn't. She should not be Jarl of Solitude, and defiantly not High Queen. it doesn't really matter of she has good advisers or not, if she can be manipulated easily, then who knows what could happen.

 

Also, how indulgent is Elisif. Indulging here and there is fine for anybody. To much indulgence is bad for a leader. It disconnects them for reality.

 

 

[Moody]

I agree entirely with Elisif but you do have to bear in mind she was never meant to be Yarl - she has had no training and has basically been thrown in the deep end - as others have said her heart is in the right place, she cares for her people, but she hasn't yet developed the ability to "moderate" that (hence her exaggerated response to the request when you first meet her) and honestly I doubt she ever will - she is purposely being kept around by the Imperials as a reminder of the High Kings death - as soon as the war is "settled" I expect they would replace her since they would no longer need the grieving widow as a figure head

 

As for Ulfric - sorry I don't buy it - he makes several speeches with SEVERE racist intones - add these to some of the conversations you have in Windhelm he doesn't come off as caring for anyone who isn't a Nord (personally I would go further and say he cares for no-one who isn't HIM) - the most damning evidence comes from the Argonians on the docks - they are some of the hardest workers but they are barred from entry to the city proper and receive no protection from thieves or bandits - add this to the fact he allows bandits to operate within his lands as long as they don't attack Nords and the picture is firmly painted

 

As for the conflict as a whole - I am terrible conflicted about it. The Empire in its current state is bad for Skyrim, it is corrupt to the core, bleeding resources and unable to fully protect its people. Despite this I look at the Stormcloaks and I cant help but see a power hungry leader manipulating the strong nationalistic tendencies of the Nords in a bid for supreme power which leaves me in a bit of a quandary - this is probably why I have never completed the civil war in over 500 hours of play...

Edited February 21, 2013 by Moody

[Drakescale]

 

@Lithium Flower

The more I play the game, the more I read up on it and examine the dilemma in its entirety, the more convinced I feel that Ulfric's cause is not only just but also necessary to defeat the Dominion in the long-run and the more baffled I become by the contempt and hate there is for Ulfric based on nothing more than hearsay and weak cimcumstantial evidence.

 

Agreed. Not everyone in the Legion worship Talos, true, but they suffered nonetheless when it was banned, not to mention the populace. Soldiers/civillian won't fight/work just as hard as when they had faith thus does not help in rebuilding, quite the opposite and cause them to split into 3 factions(IMO the entire Empire did!). The Empire loyalist, Talos worshipper and the inbetweens (civillian and potential recruits). By accepting WCG, TMII broke the Empire into pieces and gave Ulfric cause to rebel. He's the true source of conflict.

Also, "In times of peace, prepare for war." WGC in effect, AD will rebuild just as much, if not more, with Black Marsh as potential ally as Dunmers are sheltered by Skyrim under Empire rule (Argonian slavery not quelled). It's naive to think otherwise especially when they are given free reign to enforce them from embassies made throughout the Empire.

[LithiumPower]

I agree that Elisif isn't really Jarl material on first impressions, though to imply she won't improve in the coming years is a false statement. Leaders are not born in a day. Also with Falk-Firebeard's loyaltly and wisdom in politics, I'm certain Elisif will get the hang of things.

 

I admire her dedication to her people, and was rather upset about the comments that say she's too obssessed with fashion?? I mean, a person can indulge in other thinsgs right? Frow what I've read from those comments that relate about the matter, that's like saying leaders can't have time for themselves.

 

Falk Fire-beard's loyalty and dedication to the hold is quite suspect, frankly. He's not even planning on sticking around to see through the job. Here is an insightful snippet of his conversation with Bryling.

 

 

 

Bryling: "Falk, you shouldn't have come. You know what'd happen if people found out about us."

 

Falk: "I know, my lady. I just needed to see you outside of court, away from all of the politics."

 

Bryling: "I'm serious. If Erikur knew about us, he'd force you to resign from your position. And without you, he'd have the Jarl bent

around his little finger."

 

Falk: "You're right, of course. But when this war is over, I'll gladly resign and we can stop sneaking around like this."

 

source

 

 

I agree entirely with Elisif but you do have to bear in mind she was never meant to be Yarl - she has had no training and has basically been thrown in the deep end - as others have said her heart is in the right place, she cares for her people, but she hasn't yet developed the ability to "moderate" that (hence her exaggerated response to the request when you first meet her) and honestly I doubt she ever will - she is purposely being kept around by the Imperials as a reminder of the High Kings death - as soon as the war is "settled" I expect they would replace her since they would no longer need the grieving widow as a figure head

 

As for Ulfric - sorry I don't buy it - he makes several speeches with SEVERE racist intones - add these to some of the conversations you have in Windhelm he doesn't come off as caring for anyone who isn't a Nord (personally I would go further and say he cares for no-one who isn't HIM) - the most damning evidence comes from the Argonians on the docks - they are some of the hardest workers but they are barred from entry to the city proper and receive no protection from thieves or bandits - add this to the fact he allows bandits to operate within his lands as long as they don't attack Nords and the picture is firmly painted

 

As for the conflict as a whole - I am terrible conflicted about it. The Empire in its current state is bad for Skyrim, it is corrupt to the core, bleeding resources and unable to fully protect its people. Despite this I look at the Stormcloaks and I cant help but see a power hungry leader manipulating the strong nationalistic tendencies of the Nords in a bid for supreme power which leaves me in a bit of a quandary - this is probably why I have never completed the civil war in over 500 hours of play...

 

Could you quote some of these racist speeches he makes or point out some racist dialogue? I'd be very interested in revising my view of him in light of these.

 

If anything, it's Tullius who is overtly racist and contemptuous of nords and treats even those under his command with disdain.

 

As for the argonians, as I posted earlier their problems go beyond Ulfric because firstly, based on the four individuals we encounter who are presumably representative of their population, they are largely thieving, anti-social skooma addicts and not winning themselves any friends.

 

More importantly, if expelling them from the city is a mark against Ulfric's character then it should be noted that Brunwulf Free-Winter doesn't allow them back into the city either.

 

 

 

@Lithium Flower

The more I play the game, the more I read up on it and examine the dilemma in its entirety, the more convinced I feel that Ulfric's cause is not only just but also necessary to defeat the Dominion in the long-run and the more baffled I become by the contempt and hate there is for Ulfric based on nothing more than hearsay and weak cimcumstantial evidence.

 

Agreed. Not everyone in the Legion worship Talos, true, but they suffered nonetheless when it was banned, not to mention the populace. Soldiers/civillian won't fight/work just as hard as when they had faith thus does not help in rebuilding, quite the opposite and cause them to split into 3 factions(IMO the entire Empire did!). The Empire loyalist, Talos worshipper and the inbetweens (civillian and potential recruits). By accepting WCG, TMII broke the Empire into pieces and gave Ulfric cause to rebel. He's the true source of conflict.

 

Also, "In times of peace, prepare for war." WGC in effect, AD will rebuild just as much, if not more, with Black Marsh as potential ally as Dunmers are sheltered by Skyrim under Empire rule (Argonian slavery not quelled). It's naive to think otherwise especially when they are given free reign to enforce them from embassies made throughout the Empire.

I wouldn't expect Black Marsh to involve themselves in the war on either side because the argonians are controlled by the Hist and the Hist only cares about Black Marsh but yes I'd be surprised if they allied with any faction that includes the Dunmer.

 

I recently finished playing Dragonborn and it was interesting to note that the Dunmer are quite strongly anti-imperial too. Crescius Caerellius (in fact an imperial himself) and 2nd Councillor Adril Arano both accuse the Empire of abandoning the colony of Raven Rock (which was originally imperial) when the ebony mines dried up, which once again corroborated the general sense I get that the empire is presently only interested in the resources a region can provide and not in the welfare of its people which is exactly what Ulfric rages about if you ask him why he went to war.

[sajuukkhar9000]

I wouldn't expect Black Marsh to involve themselves in the war on either side because the argonians are controlled by the Hist and the Hist only cares about Black Marsh but yes I'd be surprised if they allied with any faction that includes the Dunmer.

 

The Hist are very pro-Mundus, and The Thalmor seek to destroy Mundus. Should the need arise, I would be surprised if The Hist didn't call the Argonians into action against the Thalmor.

 

Indeed, one of The Thalmor's greatest potential threats is the Argonians, as they were the ONLY race to beat Mehrunes Dagon's forces, militarily, during the Oblivion crisis, in fact, Dagon's forces were so scared of the Argonians that his generals closed their own oblivion gates in Black Marsh out of fear.

 

And lets not forget, The Hist allied with the Dunmer and the Nords to form the Ebonheart pact in the past, to stop Molag bal's planemeld, so such an alliance isn't impossible if an event of mythic importance was happening.

Edited February 21, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[StormHammer81]

@Sithis

You didn't answer my question...

Admit it, the Stormcloaks are "oppressors". You guys have used this club against the Empire time and time again. Based on your response then, a Stormcloak must have your *exact* same views, they must *hate* the Empire and follow Ulfric *unquestioningly* or else they're not "real"? Know what I mean Sithis, "real"?

How many tragedies were committed throughout history because people were just *following orders*?

You can respond or continue to ignore me, IDC. Stormcloaks are oppressors too and it's time you Stormcloaks own up to it, or admit you're cause is wrong.

I stand with the Empire, and I remember how "oppressive" you guys were to me in the beginning when I was a Stormcloak, you would not hear anyone else's opinion if it did not fit *precisely* into your doctrine.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/images/32122-1-1361464638.jpg

Edited February 21, 2013 by StormHammer81

[fraquar]

Who exactly are the Stormcloaks oppressing that the Imperials aren't?

[kradus]

Who exactly are the Stormcloaks oppressing that the Imperials aren't?

 

None, every kind of government opresses its people in some way. The stormlcoaks however take one step further with the class system and genocidal tendencies.

[fraquar]

 

Who exactly are the Stormcloaks oppressing that the Imperials aren't?

 

None, every kind of government opresses its people in some way. The stormlcoaks however take one step further with the class system and genocidal tendencies.

Umm, be specific here.

[StormHammer81]

The Question was for Sithis. :)

 

It doesn't matter, it's the same "If you're not with us, then you're against us" criminal B$.

 

Umm, I think the term, "genocidal tendencies" is specific enough. Please see Windhelm for further info.

 

Another similarity between Thalmor and Stormcloaks, I'm afraid. :/

Edited February 21, 2013 by StormHammer81