Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

"On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded."

 

It never mentions the Redguards.

[hardarg]

True, but that was then, how would they fare now in the conclusion of the Civil War. Particularly with these issues:

 

Nords who are pro-Imperials, will have mixed feelings with fighting alongside the Stormcloaks.

Magic is heavily looked down on Skyrim, thus very few Magic practitioners.

 

 

"On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded.

Don't forget, Morale and number of troops is also an influential factor in those kinds of situation.

Edited March 7, 2013 by hardarg

[sisterof]

Wow, what a heated debate. Also mostly between the same people, hopefully there's space for more. It's interesting to see how people get so passionate about the whole deal, that's what art is for - instilling emotions. :biggrin:

 

One thing I found very nice was the several plans some people here offered for either side - possible scenarios if Skyrim was invaded, if the Empire finally took action, and such outcomes that aren't yet shown in game (fingers crossed for a High King DLC). Being a communication-challenged individual who can only rant, I dare not add to the pile of info, but it was a good read.

As I play with multiple characters and absolutely despise a "do all quests, become master of everything" approach, I really enjoy reading both sides to help my characters make up their minds. I also rarely overlap questlines, so I only have one Dragonborn - and only one Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, and so on, so they co-exist in my "head canon" (canon, not cannon!) . The Dragonborn in question is still deciding if he should get involved at all, so I appreciate the input I get in threads such as this. He abhors civil war to the point he's very reluctant to take sides and stomp over a bunch of countrymen (and he has nothing against the Imperials other than they absurd 20 years long inactivity against the Thalmor), but he also wants it to end so he may end up taking a side just to make them stop bickering and killing each other.

There is no right and wrong side, and that's both brilliant and utterly annoying - it's so much easier to play villain or play hero instead of mix-and-match both roles. For now, my Dragonborn's tendency is the Stormcloaks. The Empire makes it very hard to align with them because they offer absolutely no plans of ever counter-attacking the Thalmor after 25 years. It's a whole new generation coming and nothing changed. The Emperor is not a "true Emperor", his royal guard is a joke, the Empire has lost its soul - and it wasn't even about banning Talos, after Martin Septim died the line of Emperors blessed by the Divines simply ended. I also agree with what someone else said here, sorry I don't remember who it was, but the Stormcloaks are a force of change in a world that is decaying (like Rome, in a rl example). I can see Skyrim becoming independent and forging alliances with the other provinces, including Cyrodiil. Maybe in the future we have a new True Emperor unifying everything again (hopefully not very violently), but I don't see the Empire having any value without this connection to the Divines.

As for the bad points with the Stormcloaks... there are many. Ulfric is not a saint, though it's ridiculous to expect him to be one, there hasn't been a single saintly conqueror/warchief/rebel. War requires brutality. He is racist, he disregards the pleas of other races, though not to the extremes that others like Galmar go ("Skyrim is the land of man, that is a fact, learn your history"), not to mention his brother who openly harasses a Dunmer woman and threatens to invade her house at night to "make her confess". It is repulsive that there are so many undertones of prejudice, but (also as someone else already pointed out), you get very mistreated by the Dunmer both in Morrowind and Solstheim, the Orcs in their fortresses treat you like crap, the Altmer are Altmer, and so on. Prejudice happens between all races - TES happens in a universe where "race" carries even more difference than in our real world, and just look at how racist we are because of tiny things like skin pigmentation. It's terrible, but it's common. Even expected. The fact that the Stormcloaks aren't paragons of equality and justice doesn't make them villains.

It's question of what character you are playing. Both sides have terrible flaws. Each character has their personality and weighs the pros/cons and makes their choice. There are things that are absolutely hard to swallow on both. Things I simply despise about the Stormcloaks: Ulfric refusing Tullius' surrender; Ulfric's lack of interest in exercising his role as Jarl - he is so focused on the war that he uses it to hide his lack of concern for the non-Nords in his hold; the guards and Galmar ignoring the open agression against that Dunmer woman and the Argonians kept out of the city; the Silver-Bloods running their oppressive business. With the Empire, is their lack of reason to exist now that the Emperor is just a common man instead of a hero; there's basically nothing left of it already, Morrowind is destroyed, Black Marsh is hardly an ally if it's attacking another ally, the Khajiit/Bosmer have joined the Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell is independent; their decades-long inability to make any move against the Thalmor; their abandoning of Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis and of Skyrim during the Markarth Incident; and trying to execute both the Dragonborn and Ulfric without trial even though everything the Empire stands on is "law and procedure" - that's their argument of "we are civilizatio"; On a less rational, more emotional note, i find it horrible that Tullius in the end of the questline isn't satisfied with killing Ulfric. He talks about not only publicly executing him, but showing of his head on a pike. That's tasteless, my dear fellow. And this coming from a man that sits and whines if he gets defeated, carried by Rikke.

I really wish there was the option to make a secret alliance between Empire and Stormcloaks after showing them the Thalmor dossier. It would be glorious to use the same machinations and treachery against the Aldmeri Dominion.

On a side note - does anyone know why even the Imperial-aligned Jarls refuse to let the Khajiit caravans into their cities? Even Balgruuf. This cannot be simply a game mechanics thing (not letting them inside Whiterun for lack of space or something), because even the non-walled cities do it.

BTW Lithium Flower, loved your post, the #710 here. I had never stopped to think about the difference between the two speeches. Nice pointing it out!

Edited March 7, 2013 by sisterof

[Jaradin]

In response to the original poster:

 

As a fellow Redguard, I also had a difficult time making that decision. I was originally inclined to join the Empire (since I've always been partial to them as a player, particularly in Morrowind) but the whole execution debacle and their failure to honor Hammerfell in the White Gold Concordat made it seem out of character. I then immediately suspected that a Redguard would sympathize with the Stormcloak's desire for independence, but I realized that it wasn't necessarily accurate - Hammerfell didn't choose to leave the Empire but were forced out due to the Emperor's politics, which establishes Hammerfell as having finally grown attached to the Empire which they rebelled against in prior centuries. By contrast, the Stormcloaks wanted to rebel for the sake of honoring Talos, and instead of trying to solve the problems in the Empire or help to press out the Dominion influence which forces the Emperor's hand, the Stormcloaks chose to rebel. Therefore, I decided that my Redguard could very well feel indifferent to the Nordic struggle and even consider their rebellion as trivial and petty.

 

Then I questioned the distant consequences of the war and asked myself: who'd put the maximum hurt on the Thalmor? That seemed like a pretty sizable influence on my character, him being a Redguard and likely hating them, so I came to the realization over the course of my first twenty hours in the game that the Stormcloaks would be complacent towards the Dominion - and this became abundantly clear when I raided the Thalmor Embassy for the Main Quest and discovered their dossier on Ulfric, implying that he was nothing more than a puppet, a fool bastard given resources and leverage to weaken the Empire's strength for their ultimate defeat. So, running upon that fact, I reluctantly conceded my character to join the Empire in its war against the Stormcloaks for the simple sake of sticking it to the Thalmor for a little while longer. After all: while the Empire has to be diplomatic with the Thalmor, everyone knows it won't last much longer, and ultimately those cold relations will turn hostile. As the old saying goes: keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

 

Another factor I eventually noticed came into affect later: as my character began to have more relations with the Daedra, his actions became increasingly darker, bloodier, selfish, and overall dastardly. It struck me that my character was hardly a hero, but an anti-hero of the villainous sort. Therefore, it'd only make sense for such a character to use the Empire for striking at his ultimate foes at the price of slaying hundreds of Nords, particularly betraying Ulfric and the men that helped my character survive at the beginning of the game.

 

Take this as you will. In the end, we all know that the Civil War will be irrelevant come Elder Scrolls VI, seeing as how there is NO way in hell that this Empire can stand up to the increasing power of those Fascist Altmer pigs. Prepare yourselves for the rise of the Dominion upon us all.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Jaradin

[Jinxxed0]

I'd like to imagine that the side with the dragonborn on it's side would be the winner.

Having at least two or three dragons on his/her side (the dragons you befriend in the game/dlc) and the shouts along with heavy influence through out skyrim. i think who ever has the dragonborn on their side could very well crush the thalmor assuming they take all these things into consideration for the overall lore/story.

 

I always play as a Redguard myself. I'm not really lore-nut personally, but I do play my characters as actual people with a tiny bit of myself thrown in there of course and all my characters usually find the Nords (stomcloak ones of course) to be mean spirited and racist. So all my characters end up disliking them. As for the nearly being beheaded thing, my first character crushed the empire, but after getting the alternate start mod when I'm never in helgen before the dragon attack, the choice is super easy for all my all my characters who start out as simple hunters or travelers.

[Kayyyleb]

I'd like to imagine that the side with the dragonborn on it's side would be the winner.

Having at least two or three dragons on his/her side (the dragons you befriend in the game/dlc) and the shouts along with heavy influence through out skyrim. i think who ever has the dragonborn on their side could very well crush the thalmor assuming they take all these things into consideration for the overall lore/story.

 

I always play as a Redguard myself. I'm not really lore-nut personally, but I do play my characters as actual people with a tiny bit of myself thrown in there of course and all my characters usually find the Nords (stomcloak ones of course) to be mean spirited and racist. So all my characters end up disliking them. As for the nearly being beheaded thing, my first character crushed the empire, but after getting the alternate start mod when I'm never in helgen before the dragon attack, the choice is super easy for all my all my characters who start out as simple hunters or travelers.

You do make a good point about the Dragonborn. He/she is practically a demigod among mortals. Just imagining the sheer devastation your basic Unrelenting Force could do to a formation of soldiers in a battle is staggering.

 

I really have my fingers crossed on taking the fight to the Thalmor in either DLC or TES VI. People might try to say the Empire doesn't have any fight left in it but this legionnaire is itching for a chance to give the Thalmor some payback.

[RighthandofSithis]

"On the 30th of Rain's Hand, the bloody Battle of the Red Ring began as General Decianus swept down on the city from the west, while General Jonna's legionnaires drove south along the Red Ring Road. In a two-day assault, Jonna's army crossed the Niben and advanced west, attempting to link up with Decianus's legions and thus surround the Imperial City. Lord Naarifin was taken by surprise by Decianus's assault, but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded."

 

It never mentions the Redguards.

 

Furthermore, the Redguards, while always ready to form armies when they need to, generally don't like rank-and-file duty. They are fine warriors, but their free spirits make them unable to stand around in the Imperial Legion cleaning boots.

[RighthandofSithis]

Lets be honest here, if Skyrim left the Empire the AD would role straight through Cyrodil much like the Stormtroopers through France - no Hammerfell, No Skyrim, no chance for the Empire.

 

Pause, resupply and come right up the gut of Skyrim - those passes through the Rift and Falkreath aren't that hard to breach.

 

A few comments on this.

 

Firstly, the Aldmeri are unable to utilise the Blitzkreig, which requires mechanised infantry, heavy armor and air superiority, none of which exist in the TES universe.

 

Secondly, there are mixed feelings about the numbers of the Aldmeri. Elves live a long time, and one would assume that they in fact mature slowly (else by sheer numbers they could have flooded Tamriel, they may have had to in the face of overpopulation).

 

thirdly, it is more likely that Cyrodiil will splinter, with each county seeking protection from its closest power. In the south-east, that would be the dominion, in the north, Skyrim, in the southwest, only another great war could tell.

[LithiumPower]

It's question of what character you are playing. Both sides have terrible flaws. Each character has their personality and weighs the pros/cons and makes their choice. There are things that are absolutely hard to swallow on both. Things I simply despise about the Stormcloaks: Ulfric refusing Tullius' surrender; Ulfric's lack of interest in exercising his role as Jarl - he is so focused on the war that he uses it to hide his lack of concern for the non-Nords in his hold; the guards and Galmar ignoring the open agression against that Dunmer woman and the Argonians kept out of the city; the Silver-Bloods running their oppressive business. With the Empire, is their lack of reason to exist now that the Emperor is just a common man instead of a hero; there's basically nothing left of it already, Morrowind is destroyed, Black Marsh is hardly an ally if it's attacking another ally, the Khajiit/Bosmer have joined the Aldmeri Dominion, Hammerfell is independent; their decades-long inability to make any move against the Thalmor; their abandoning of Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis and of Skyrim during the Markarth Incident; and trying to execute both the Dragonborn and Ulfric without trial even though everything the Empire stands on is "law and procedure" - that's their argument of "we are civilizatio"; On a less rational, more emotional note, i find it horrible that Tullius in the end of the questline isn't satisfied with killing Ulfric. He talks about not only publicly executing him, but showing of his head on a pike. That's tasteless, my dear fellow. And this coming from a man that sits and whines if he gets defeated, carried by Rikke.

 

I really wish there was the option to make a secret alliance between Empire and Stormcloaks after showing them the Thalmor dossier. It would be glorious to use the same machinations and treachery against the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

On a side note - does anyone know why even the Imperial-aligned Jarls refuse to let the Khajiit caravans into their cities? Even Balgruuf. This cannot be simply a game mechanics thing (not letting them inside Whiterun for lack of space or something), because even the non-walled cities do it.

 

BTW Lithium Flower, loved your post, the #710 here. I had never stopped to think about the difference between the two speeches. Nice pointing it out!

Hi sisterof,

 

Welcome to the thread, make yourself at home, pitch a tent and here's an axe. Thanks for the shout-out, I'm glad you liked the post.

 

The Khajiit are not trusted. While Ysolda the aspiring merchant in Whiterun attributes this to the general impression that they are all thieves, there is also the fact that Elsweyr is currently allied with the Dominion and most Khajiit have an almost religiously fervent admiration of the Altmer for their claimed part in restoring the moons. But there is no single, authoritative statetment of why this discrimination exists.

 

For all their 'we're above it' bravado, imperials are just as ethnocentric as anyone else - just more subtle about it And Balgruuf chiefly cares about Balgruuf.

 

As for Galmar, as brusque as he is, he's not racist and he explains quite well how the nords feel. Skyrim is nord homeland, that's a fact - they've settled it, fought for it, defended it, built up a civilisation from scratch that has stood since merethic times and every time, man has been threatened, they've showed up in support- whether it was the Great War or the Alessian revolt. It's the first and apparently last bastion of man. They helped build the Empire only for the Empire to turn around and treat them like conquered territory. He will not stand for that, and he will put the interests of his people, who are being persecuted in their own homeland, first.

 

If you're a non-nord, he'll ask for your reasons and he explains he only wants people committed to the cause - who'll stand up for Skyrim, for the nords and are willing to die for it - not sellswords in it just for the loot or glory. Beyond that he's happy to accept anyone. There aren't any non-nord Commanders in Stormcloak camps, true but you do meet the occasional imperial or dunmer(!) farmer heading to Windhelm to join the rebellion. Every stormcloak you encounter encourages you to sign up, regardless of race. If anything, the nords are angry that non-nords don't enlist - especially the Dunmer. Skyrim welcomed the Dunmer (despite their historic enmity) after the catastrophe, the High King even gifting the entire island of Solstheim. They opened up their cities, offered them land and opportunity to rebuild and when Skyrim is threatened, they want to remain uninvolved - that is what pisses him off. It was the Empire that abandoned the Dunmer - first during the Oblivion Crisis, then again after the Red Year and Skyrim who lent them a hand. Stormcloak aligned holds who gave them space in their cities and yet when it's they who need a hand - sorry, but the Dunmer would rather stay neutral. Well, fus ro dah to you too!

 

Galmar may be his brother but he's not responsible for Rolff or law and order in the city for that matter. He's not the guard captain, he's a general with a war to plan.

 

I always make it a point to beat up Rolff myself when I'm in Windhelm, I do it right outside Candlehearth too or when I'm prowling around the Gray Quarter at night and he's standing there heckling. The guards don't bother me - my favourite perk of being Ulfric's thane. Agrenor died mysteriously - I have no idea how, but I received an inheritance from him. Maybe Aval Atheron finally grew a pair. Good for him!

[Jaradin]

 

I'd like to imagine that the side with the dragonborn on it's side would be the winner.

Having at least two or three dragons on his/her side (the dragons you befriend in the game/dlc) and the shouts along with heavy influence through out skyrim. i think who ever has the dragonborn on their side could very well crush the thalmor assuming they take all these things into consideration for the overall lore/story.

 

I always play as a Redguard myself. I'm not really lore-nut personally, but I do play my characters as actual people with a tiny bit of myself thrown in there of course and all my characters usually find the Nords (stomcloak ones of course) to be mean spirited and racist. So all my characters end up disliking them. As for the nearly being beheaded thing, my first character crushed the empire, but after getting the alternate start mod when I'm never in helgen before the dragon attack, the choice is super easy for all my all my characters who start out as simple hunters or travelers.

You do make a good point about the Dragonborn. He/she is practically a demigod among mortals. Just imagining the sheer devastation your basic Unrelenting Force could do to a formation of soldiers in a battle is staggering.

 

I really have my fingers crossed on taking the fight to the Thalmor in either DLC or TES VI. People might try to say the Empire doesn't have any fight left in it but this legionnaire is itching for a chance to give the Thalmor some payback.

I'll be the cynic hear and mention how that event's doubtful. Bethesda has the convenient habit of dusting their player-heroes under the rug after the events they participated in. The Nerevarine took an indefinite trip to Akavir and hasn't been heard from since, and the Champion of Cyrodiil seems to have disappeared entirely (and might have become Sheogorath). In fact, I think the only game where the hero didn't mysterious die or disappear was Arena - I believe that hero lived to the end of their days happily and passed on before witnessing Uriel's assassination. Therefore, it's safe to assume that our Dragonborn will either a) die, b) take a vacation off continent, c) take a vacation outside of the realm of Nirn, or d) become a demigod that doesn't give a f**k bout Tamriel.

 

Therefore, my opinion is that the Empire, whether it defeated the Stormcloaks or not, will be too weak to hold the walls against the next Thalmor assault, especially if they discover some mighty dangerous (and convenient) artifact - which BethSoft will likely implement to give them some great power for villainy and awesomeness as the next big villains. In fact, the Civil War and the potential assassination of the Emperor hint that these are the twilight days of the Mede Dynasty, and that the Empire as we know it shall fall to the Dominion. So the question remains: will our hero in TES:VI reestablish the Empire? Could it be the quest of another hero in a later installment? Or shall the Empire fall into the pages of history, to be succeeded first by tyranny, and then a more modern government? Only time will tell.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Jaradin