All those "little girl" characters...

[ElioraArin]

Haven't you been given enough reasons already? And I'm sure that there are many more. Open your mind a little - the world isn't all bad, there are a lot of good people out there (they just don't generally make the news), & this is just a game! If people want to play as kick ass super girls & their friends, or with a lil sis who has been training to use a bow since she was a 6 how does it hurt you or anyone else?

Edited September 2, 2016 by ElioraArin

[idioticidiot]

 

 

SKIPPED

 

And why does such a setting require a childish Elisif?

 

 

 

SKIPPED

 

Yeah and now we get closer to the point. What's the reason for childish character/followers? Who would take a child as follower into a dungeon full of Draugr? Please tell me again that this isn't morally questionable.

 

 

 

SKIPPED

 

 

Unfortunately you seem to forget that "a whole bunch of mature men" will fight against this child-like queen as soon as you side with the Stormcloaks.

 

 

 

I'm afraid that you still believe that I (or other modders) have bad intention(s) when creating the "child-like" characters. Which is fine since questioning someone's intention(s) is always easier than establishing one's own argument.

 

And also, you can't/won't kill Elisif in the game even when you side with the Stormcloaks (if killing "child-like" characters is your moral concern, but I bet it is something more which you have not explained).

 

Moreover, you keep begging the question instead of answering my question: what is the connection between "creating child-like followers" and "sexualising children"? I think "sexualising" is more likely to be your moral concern?

 

Or backtrack a bit: what is the problem of having "child-like" characters/followers? Since you are saying "morally questionable", the issue is beyond lore-breaking (which I accept if you really raise this problem) and requires some explanation.

 

Most of the time I come across these arguments:

 

1) Normal people won't make "child-like" followers (why?) -> You have created one -> Therefore, you must be abnormal.

 

2) NPC replacers are always about sexualising the characters (why?) -> you have created one that is "child-like" -> Therefore, you must be sexualising children.

 

3) With other mods, you can engage with ANY NPCs/ followers (well that's the case) -> Your mod features "child-like" characters -> Therefore, you must be sexualising children (what?).

 

4) All creations must be the representation of the apparent/ hidden desire of the modder (a bit Fraudian!) -> Your mod features "child-like" characters -> Therefore, you must be XXXX.

 

(Please, no Ad Hominem)

 

(No, I am not trying to persuade you or other moralists to believe that I have no bad intentions since you cannot read my mind to confirm it. I just want to understand your argument.)

 

(I DO understand that you believe the Laissez-faire style is not ok, which I agree. Just to let you know that we do have common ground.)

Edited September 2, 2016 by idioticidiot

[Moksha8088]

If people want to play as kick ass super girls & their friends, or with a lil sis who has been training to use a bow since she was a 6 how does it hurt you or anyone else?

You do make a good argument in that no children were actually compromised during this role play or association with little girl characters. I guess I can understand the relative absence of little boy characters as well. I once thought it odd that so many male game players liked to play as females. I wondered if it was trying to get in touch with a more feminine side of their persona. Once I heard the great (and slooty!) mod reviewer MxR explain that these guys chose female characters so they could get undressed and look at their titties, it occurred to me that this was simply a natural male impulse, sort of like consuming beer and snack foods. As one of the posters from the first page put it, there is no reason for us to pretend that we do not know what is going on.

 

It is after all role-playing, which is a direct subset of make believe.

[idioticidiot]

I hate to say it: it's not just sexual desire.

[Novem99]

 

Which is fine since questioning someone's intention(s) is always easier than establishing one's own argument.

 

 

Skipped.

 

 

I'm afraid that you still believe that I (or other modders) have bad intention(s) when creating the "child-like" characters.

 

 

"Bad intentions"...dude, you must disarm rhetorically. I never said you are kind of a criminal.

 

 

what is the connection between "creating child-like followers" and "sexualising children"?

 

I would consider myself as someone who has a big imagination but I just can't figure out why someone should play as a little child or have little children with these cute big wide eyes (I'm sure you get the point) as followers when you're NOT a child by yourself. At least in a game like Skyrim where most of the time you have to do things like fighting, killing, stealing etc. and nobody with a common sense wants to see little children fighting, killing and stealing.

 

What else could be the reason to surround oneself with child-like followers other than having a special preference for little children? That doesn't have to be by default something pathological. And as said as a kid I think it's normal to play as a kid. But as an adult I think it's indeed strange to have a preference for child-like company.

 

And till this day none of these fanboys could give an explanation for this preference.

 

 

 

(No, I am not trying to persuade you or other moralists to believe that I have no bad intentions since you cannot read my mind to confirm it. I just want to understand your argument.)

 

(I DO understand that you believe the Laissez-faire style is not ok, which I agree. Just to let you know that we do have common ground.)

 

 

Again, I don't feel persuaded and I don't think you are someone who is spying out kindergartens.

 

But which mods do you think would these guys download? SMIM or mods containing things like that:

 

http://img.2game.info/re/l/skyrim/images/mod/78052/1471963377.jpg

 

It is not my plan to offend you. If I did I say sorry but English is not my mother language and it's kinda difficult to discuss such a topic in a politically correct way.

[idioticidiot]

 

 

Which is fine since questioning someone's intention(s) is always easier than establishing one's own argument.

 

 

Skipped.

 

 

I'm afraid that you still believe that I (or other modders) have bad intention(s) when creating the "child-like" characters.

 

 

"Bad intentions"...dude, you must disarm rhetorically. I never said you are kind of a criminal.

 

 

what is the connection between "creating child-like followers" and "sexualising children"?

 

I would consider myself as someone who has a big imagination but I just can't figure out why someone should play as a little child or have little children with these cute big wide eyes (I'm sure you get the point) as followers when you're NOT a child by yourself. At least in a game like Skyrim where most of the time you have to do things like fighting, killing, stealing etc. and nobody with a common sense wants to see little children fighting, killing and stealing.

 

What else could be the reason to surround oneself with child-like followers other than having a special preference for little children? That doesn't have to be by default something pathological. And as said as a kid I think it's normal to play as a kid. But as an adult I think it's indeed strange to have a preference for child-like company.

 

And till this day none of these fanboys could give an explanation for this preference.

 

 

 

(No, I am not trying to persuade you or other moralists to believe that I have no bad intentions since you cannot read my mind to confirm it. I just want to understand your argument.)

 

(I DO understand that you believe the Laissez-faire style is not ok, which I agree. Just to let you know that we do have common ground.)

 

 

Again, I don't feel persuaded and I don't think you are someone who is spying out kindergartens.

 

But which mods do you think would these guys download? SMIM or mods containing things like that:

 

 

 

It is not my plan to offend you. If I did I say sorry but English is not my mother language and it's kinda difficult to discuss such a topic in a politically correct way.

 

 

Don't worry, English is not my first language. We are using our second or third (since you are from Germany I suppose) and something may be lost in translation.

 

No no no, I'm not trying to disasrm you by casting myself as a victim (which to me is very easy but not useful to "get to the point"). I'm trying to understand your concern, or more specifically, what you are really trying to argue against "child-like" characters. Of course, I don't have the ability to persuade you. I don't need to persuade you (literally, I'm REALLY serious about not trying to persuade you), since again,I won't change my mind and you don't have to change yours. I just wonder if you are really trying to play the role of a moralist who can't explain why the existence of "child-like" characters is a moral concern.

 

From what you have said, you have a few arguments:

 

1)most people do not use "child-like" characters / do not have "child-like" followers -> you cannot come up with other reasons why this can happen -> so the users/ creators are "fanboys" (well that's your word) who have some moral problems.

 

I assume that has to do with lolita complex since you are using the word "fanboys"? Then you have to assume that only people with lolita complex will make "child-like" followers/ NPCs AND THEN to assume that everything created by the modder is the product of his/her desire. But then it creates a strange problem: does a modder have lolita complex because he/she has created "child-like" follower/NPCs? Or the modder creates "child-like" followers/NPCs becasue he/she has lolita complex?

"I can identify those modders who have lolita complex because they have created these mods."

"Why do they create these mods?"

"Because they have lolita complex."

"How do you know they have lolita complex?""

"Because they have created these mods."

 

It's becoming circular, isn't it? But I hate to suggest that if that is the case, then we may have a lot of problematic modders because their works indicate that they have a tendency to objectify women/ encourage violence. Oh, we need to do something about that as well, like for example, discussing the "issue" why they make such mods. "Oh because they have a complex that objectifies women." "Why do you say so?" "Oh because they make such mods. Ah, they are abnormal. WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!"

 

I think you need to bite the bullet. However, you may not have to: "children are different, These mods feature adults/ grown-up women, not little kids".

 

So what is the difference? Why is it ok to feature grown-ups (sometimes skimpy) who cannot exist in real world, but not ok to feature "child-like" characters who are fully dressed and also cannot exist in the real world?

 

Hang on, I have an idea: "Children require protection. Skyrim is a dangerous place. They should be staying at home."

 

Well my "child-like" followers are so overpowered that they can defeat 20 legendary dragons in a row (without help). My adult followers can kill the ebony warrior in 20 seconds. My dragonborn cannot live without their help since even a guard can kill her in one hit. Who needs protection? My followers? Or my dragonborn?

 

But since you raise the question "What else could be the reason to surround oneself with child-like followers other than having a special preference for little children? ", then I can offer you 3 OTHER reasons:

A) People don't like my adult followers. (demand and supply guys, demand and supply)

B) I am not confident with my adult followers. (you notice that Japanese Mangaka who are not experienced tend to create characters who are similarly young. They tend to avoid creating characters that they are not used to draw.)

C) It is easier to make a good looking "child-like" character since you can use cuteness to cover up his/her ugliness.

 

You may say that I am living in my comfort zone, which I agree. Nevertheless, if your whole argument is that the sole reason that I (or other modders who make similar mods that DO feature fully dressed characters) to create these mods is that I must have lolita complex, I beg to differ.

 

 

2) Normal people won't use these mods -> My mod features "girl" Ulfric being restrained during the vanilla opening -> "OH NO! THESE USERS AND THE MODDER MUST BE TERRIBLE PERSONS!"

 

Hmmm, that's a good gag, isn't it? I can't and don't know how the users are going to use my mod, but I think I have done what I can. And normally Ulfric will be freed and head back to the Palace of the Kings.

 

Oh that's not your concern right since you already can't get the joke (which I understand). Your concern is: is the modder implying violence against children through the use of "child-like" characters?

 

Maybe next time I should replace Ulfric with Grelod the Kind. Wait, isn't that implying violence against old people through the use of "old" characters?

 

 

P.S. And of course, you are in no way offending me. You have tried to discuss (well I want to use "to dodge" but......no) instead of labeling me right at the start, which I am very thankful. And I am extremely thankful that you say "I don't think you are someone who is spying out kindergartens."

 

P.S.2 ANd please, stop begging the question. I am tired of that.

 

P.S.3 In case if you are wondering, this is my character:

http://i.imgur.com/xfBg7b7.jpg

Edited September 2, 2016 by idioticidiot

[JonnyThunder26]

edit: deferred to linspuppy

Edited September 2, 2016 by JonnyThunder26

[Lisnpuppy]

So, here is the thing..

 

If you believe a mod is breaking the rules set on terms of service of this site, report the mod. Don't say stuff in the comments, don't argue about it in the forums. Report it and why it shouldn't be there from the Terms of Service point. The very good and hard-working moderators will check it out and if it is breaking the rules they will remove it. if it doesn't break the rules and is not removed then I suggest you change some of your filter options and perhaps even block mod authors that put this kind of content up. There are plenty of ways to block content on this site.

 

End of issues.

[Novem99]

I just wonder if you are really trying to play the role of a moralist who can't explain why the existence of "child-like" characters is a moral concern.

No. I wouldn't describe myself as a moralist at all. And I don't have a problem with child-like characters but I just don't get why people want child-like characters to do things that children normally wouldn't/shouldn't do. Even in a complete fantasy world like the Elder Scrolls it is very unlikely for kids to fight against dragons and undead creatures. And I know it is possible to do things like this with mods but sorry that doesn't mean anything.

 

 

does a modder have lolita complex because he/she has created "child-like" follower/NPCs? Or the modder creates "child-like" followers/NPCs becasue he/she has lolita complex?

 

Well, I'm not sure. But I never met someone who has a lolita complex who admitted that he has a lolita complex. Just like you will barely find an alcoholic who will tell you that he has a problem with alcohol.

Why is it ok to feature grown-ups (sometimes skimpy) who cannot exist in real world, but not ok to feature "child-like" characters who are fully dressed and also cannot exist in the real world?

 

Sorry to diasappoint you but I think the majority of the skimpy armors with high heels etc. are totally stupid as well. But you made a point there: the only reason why people like these skimpy armors is so they can stare at boobs and butts. There's no other reason.

 

 

Well my "child-like" followers are so overpowered that they can defeat 20 legendary dragons in a row (without help). My adult followers can kill the ebony warrior in 20 seconds.

Cool, bro. But again: what's the sense behind having a little kid that can defeat 20 legendary dragons? Why do you personally like it more to watch a little kid fight a dragon instead of watching an adult doing so? What are the benefits for you?

 

 

A) People don't like my adult followers. (demand and supply guys, demand and supply)

 

So you are doing these just to please the community?

 

 

C) It is easier to make a good looking "child-like" character since you can use cuteness to cover up his/her ugliness.

 

Sorry but I can't take this argument serious.

 

 

And normally Ulfric will be freed and head back to the Palace of the Kings.

 

Normally your little Ulfric still had torn apart another man with his voice.

 

 

 

Maybe next time I should replace Ulfric with Grelod the Kind. Wait, isn't that implying violence against old people through the use of "old" characters?

 

Sarcasm won't help us at all. I never denied the existence of violence in this game against people (yes, even innocent people). But yeah I do think it's a different to kill an old woman that tortured children or to directly involve children in violence.

 

 

 

P.S.3 In case if you are wondering, this is my character:

 

Okay, that really made me laugh. Thanks for that. :thumbsup:

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Novem99

[LadyMilla]

So, here is the thing..

 

If you believe a mod is breaking the rules set on terms of service of this site, report the mod. Don't say stuff in the comments, don't argue about it in the forums. Report it and why it shouldn't be there from the Terms of Service point. The very good and hard-working moderators will check it out and if it is breaking the rules they will remove it. if it doesn't break the rules and is not removed then I suggest you change some of your filter options and perhaps even block mod authors that put this kind of content up. There are plenty of ways to block content on this site.

 

End of issues.

 

Indeed. And there is nothing to be understood about personal preferences. What appeals to you will not necessarily appeal to somebody else. There is nothing to be rationalized here because all these things belong to the domain of subjectivity. I'll just quote Dante's post here.

 

People will mod the game to how they wish to play it, you do it, I do it, anyone who installs a mod does it.

Every one of those people had their reasons and wants, so they use the mods to create their desired world. Whether it is true to lore, fitting with the theme of the game, or wildly different from what others expect.

If that includes filling it with more "childish" characters (at least in appearance) then so be it. Unless someone actually posts something that insinuates that they are doing something morally wrong or indeed, illegal - then there is nothing to judge.

 

 

And there is nothing to analyse either. And on that note, I am closing this topic.