LobselVith66 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 The part I find interesting is the defense of Ulfric in his murder of the High King as honorable, while completely ignoring the mass murder committed by the same man after the Battle of Markarth was over against not just Forsworn, but Nords as well. Or were you taking a reivisionist history view and saying that never happened, or was even an honorable action? "You are either with us, or against Skyrim." According to a book that we know is factually inaccurate, because it claims that Ulfric demanded religious freedom of his own volition, which is ouright contradicted by the Legion-allied Jarl of Markarth who said the Empire offered religious freedom to Ulfric in exchange for reclaiming the Reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknaobaygio Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Matth85 you are standing on Tulius's shoes when you claim that his decision to execute the protagonist is "acceptable",but for me, as a protagonist , i stand in MY shoes : i AM innocent, all of them know that i MAY BE innocent, but they just don't care and want to kill ME anyway -> so ? About the "duel", with your logic, how can i "fairy" duel a warriror with my mages since i know magic and they don't ? Even in a fist fight, if i know kung-fu i have a big advantages, is it "unfair" as well in your logic ? You don't know that it take skill and a lot of effort to learn the Shout ? Ulfric wasn't born with the shout, was he ? Another reason to side with Ulfric is : it's much easier to help him become High King, and then murder him ( you are the Listener !! ), then take the crown. Skyrim can be independence, and my Dovalkin is the ideal leader. Just my 2 cent, and sorry for my English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Matth85 you are standing on Tulius's shoes when you claim that his decision to execute the protagonist is "acceptable",but for me, as a protagonist , i stand in MY shoes : i AM innocent, all of them know that i MAY BE innocent, but they just don't care and want to kill ME anyway -> so ? You are caught amongst a group of known rebels. You have no way to prove your innosence. Even in the modern world, guilt by association ofter lands you in jail, and Treason is one of the few crimes where you are assumed guilty until proven innosent. Knowing the circumstances of your arrest, and the sociopolitical circumstances of bellion proseqution and treason, I, as the Protagonist, have no problems with the decision of summary execution. About the "duel", with your logic, how can i "fairy" duel a warriror with my mages since i know magic and they don't ? Even in a fist fight, if i know kung-fu i have a big advantages, is it "unfair" as well in your logic ? You don't know that it take skill and a lot of effort to learn the Shout ? Ulfric wasn't born with the shout, was he ? No, he was not born knowing a Shout. He learned it. But that's not the point. Skyrim's duels are based on a tradditoon of martial excelence. That means physical combat. To look at your comment about magic, that would be cheating. In fact, you would probably be put to death for throwing a fireball during a Nordic Duel. It is about cold, physical combat between two individuals, free of tricks. It is a test of martial skill, where the better fighter lives and the worse dies. The shout is a quasi-magical ability viewed with as much fear and suspicion in Nordic culture as Mages are. Ulfric would ahve won. Torygg says this himself in Sovengarde. There was no way the High King could have beaten Ulfric. WHat Ulfric did was cheat in an honorable duel and strip Torygg of his right to an honorable and fair death. Another reason to side with Ulfric is : it's much easier to help him become High King, and then murder him ( you are the Listener !! ), then take the crown. Skyrim can be independence, and my Dovalkin is the ideal leader. Except this isn't even an option. Just killing Ulfric and arbitrarily declaring ourself king isn't part of the canon of the story. Either the Empire wins, or Ulfric wins. There are only two choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknaobaygio Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Matth85 you are standing on Tulius's shoes when you claim that his decision to execute the protagonist is "acceptable",but for me, as a protagonist , i stand in MY shoes : i AM innocent, all of them know that i MAY BE innocent, but they just don't care and want to kill ME anyway -> so ? You are caught amongst a group of known rebels. You have no way to prove your innosence. Even in the modern world, guilt by association ofter lands you in jail, and Treason is one of the few crimes where you are assumed guilty until proven innosent. Knowing the circumstances of your arrest, and the sociopolitical circumstances of bellion proseqution and treason, I, as the Protagonist, have no problems with the decision of summary execution. About the "duel", with your logic, how can i "fairy" duel a warriror with my mages since i know magic and they don't ? Even in a fist fight, if i know kung-fu i have a big advantages, is it "unfair" as well in your logic ? You don't know that it take skill and a lot of effort to learn the Shout ? Ulfric wasn't born with the shout, was he ? No, he was not born knowing a Shout. He learned it. But that's not the point. Skyrim's duels are based on a tradditoon of martial excelence. That means physical combat. To look at your comment about magic, that would be cheating. In fact, you would probably be put to death for throwing a fireball during a Nordic Duel. It is about cold, physical combat between two individuals, free of tricks. It is a test of martial skill, where the better fighter lives and the worse dies. The shout is a quasi-magical ability viewed with as much fear and suspicion in Nordic culture as Mages are. Ulfric would ahve won. Torygg says this himself in Sovengarde. There was no way the High King could have beaten Ulfric. WHat Ulfric did was cheat in an honorable duel and strip Torygg of his right to an honorable and fair death. Another reason to side with Ulfric is : it's much easier to help him become High King, and then murder him ( you are the Listener !! ), then take the crown. Skyrim can be independence, and my Dovalkin is the ideal leader. Except this isn't even an option. Just killing Ulfric and arbitrarily declaring ourself king isn't part of the canon of the story. Either the Empire wins, or Ulfric wins. There are only two choices. It's fine with me if they decide to take me to jail instead of execution. For me, they want to kill me and don't give a f about my innocent -> enough reason for me to stand again them. If this is real life situation and happen to any of us, i don't think we can forgive this so easily ( I am trying to role-play ) About the duel, i don't see any1 claim the Ulfric's Shout is ilegal, why is that ? I think if it's so again the Nodric duel, all of the Imperial should jump and accuse Ulfric because of "cheating", but there are none. Can you show me any evidence about using Shout in Nodric duel is ilegal ? However i am not familiar with TES genre, so your point may be valid there. I know kill Ulfric and become HIgh King is not an option, but as i am trying to role-play this game, this is valid option for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matth85 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 About the duel, i don't see any1 claim the Ulfric's Shout is ilegal, why is that ?Because it was a NORDIC DUEL. Nordes FIGHT WITH PRIDE. Using a shout is MAGIC and breaks the RULES of duel. Gosh, is it that hard to understand?but as i am trying to role-play this game, this is valid option for me. It is Ulfrics men becoming Jarls, not yours. They are not loyal to you one bit. You got as much chance for the Throne as the beggar in Whiterun. You could duel Ulfric, but he would have you sent to jail long before that, It's fine with me if they decide to take me to jail instead of execution. For me, they want to kill me and don't give a f about my innocent -> enough reason for me to stand again them. If this is real life situation and happen to any of us, i don't think we can forgive this so easilyIt's a war. They really don't want to drag your sorry ass to the nearest city, and hope they will jail you. At worse they would need to take you to Solitude -- half across the map. Nobody would care if you died. And face it, before you prove you are dovahkin: You are nobody. A random X race in the wrong spot. And I want to point out another thing: how can i "fairy" duel a warriror with my mages since i know magic and they don't ?You could duel a random warrior as a mage. You could not, however, challenge a Jarl or the High King with magic. That is outside the Nordic tradition, and should be kept out of it. If you followed the story, you would know Nords do not like magic one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) If you were found in the company of Osama Bin'Ladin when his compound was raided by Seals, do you think they would beleive you if you said something along the lines of "Oh, dudes! i'm totally not with him!"? As for the duel, in truth, i ahve no documentation stating the particular rules of Nordic duels. All i can argue with is how it is refered to by people in the world. The Guards veritably whisper it, like its some obscene coment not meant for public company, Sybille Stentor (I probably butchered the vampire-womans name) remarks about how disgraceful it was, Elisef is traumatised by the brutality of it, Balgruf refers to it as 'Murder". On top of that, Ulfric's use of The Voice is directly counter to the teaching of the Grey Beards, from whom he supposedly learned the skill. As such, it is a violation of the oaths associated with the Way of the Voice (Of which you, the Dragonborn, are exempt). Then you have Torygg's own statements in Sovengarde. Everything about the fight screams deception and violation. According to a book that we know is factually inaccurate, because it claims that Ulfric demanded religious freedom of his own volition, which is ouright contradicted by the Legion-allied Jarl of Markarth who said the Empire offered religious freedom to Ulfric in exchange for reclaiming the Reach. This is actually debateable. In terms of diplomacy 'offering' often means agreeing to demands. As such, when the Jarl says "We offered him" he is likely refering to a post battle agreement that Ulfric can worship Talos (Which everyone did anyway) where both sides were complicit in the negotiation. Edited December 22, 2011 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwannaddl Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) Not that I am taking sides in this but Elisef was the wife and would not likely have accepted her husbands death as just if he had died without being hit by the voice. Balgruuf meanwhile hated Ulfric and would likely have called it murder regardless of the circumstances.Furthermore, a duel for kingship had not occured in sometime and feelings towards such acts were likely to be frowned upon. No one had fought over the title of king for as long as anyone could remember. As mentioned earlier, the use of the voice in a fight was likely seen as obscene not because you are not allowed to use it in a duel so much as its use outside of the esoteric study of the Way of the Voice was widely disapproved of by that point. It was like being granted a boon to be closer to god and then using that closeness to kill your fellow man. As for the player, it was clearly stated you were captured trying to cross the border, not during the ambush that caught Ulfric. You weren't in the same building as Osama, you were a hobo in the same state. You were pennyless, dressed in rags and fleeing to Skyrim because your life sucked in the place you originally came from. It wouldn't be an issue if you were simply arrested but they chose to just have you killed because they were too lazy to fine, deport or imprison you. Edited December 22, 2011 by justwannaddl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenu Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Actually, it was said by that guy on the cart with you that you walked into an Imperial ambush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwannaddl Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Actually, it was said by that guy on the cart with you that you walked into an Imperial ambush. Ah. My bad. Must have missed that part. Why the hell do the Stormcloaks have a hobo and a horse thief travelling with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matth85 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Why the hell do the Stormcloaks have a hobo and a horse thief travelling with them? 2 people being at the wrong place, at the wrong time. Then they are suspected for being with the Stormcloak, which any sensible person would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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