Where do the Minutemen fit in the synth debate?

[coolphoton1234]

 

Preston is a follower with a strong sense of honer. You saved his life and those he was sworn to protect. The only thing he has left to give is loyalty, but he is obsessed with the idea of the minutemen. So instead of calling you 'master' he calls you 'general' and then expects you to live up to his personal ideal of what that should mean: protect the people and stabilize the Commonwealth. The thing you have to keep in mind about him is that he is suffering from PTSD and is obsessed with the minutemen to the point of mania. There nearly a religion to him. Honestly the MM are the only faction that your rise in rank makes much sense.

 

This is an intriguing premise. Technically, he could be suffering from PTSD, though if this is the case, Beth has done a truly terrible job of portraying it. I've never known anyone who has suffered from PTSD, but I have known plenty of people with clinical depression, which is not so different. In this respect, Jun and Marcy Long are far better characterized - which is why they can be so damn annoying. :tongue:

 

That all said, I agree with qwertyzeldar: the Sole Survivor becoming the General so early in the game just doesn't work and feels very forced. What you've come up with here is a good reason for why Preston offers you the job, even though he knows virtually nothing about you. But it doesn't explain why the Sole Survivor accepts the job, nor does it explain why he/she seems to have an innate respect for Preston (who initially has done nothing to earn that respect). Basically, this whole part of the plot is badly conceived and contradictory, like it was just thrown together without any real thought.

 

The whole 'I would have found a way to get killed' speech he gives and an obsession with an edifice -from childhood I might add- that he just watched die around him are the only thing I'm basing it on. On your second point, the two fridge logic explanations I can come up with are 1: 'humoring the crazy person' and 2: The sole survivor just went thru the intro with you. The same problems that Preston has the SS might have as well. They just have different focuses(Shawn vs the Minutmen) It's really aggressive group therapy.

[RedRocketTM]

@crawe1x: (Since this stupid browser doesn't let me quote you)

From that point of view you're right. They WOULD probably mess with the institute - buuut...

Until the player finds out where it is, or how to get in there, there literally is no way to oppose the institute. And with the Minutemen minimized to Preston only... Well who'd find out then?

If the player as their new General takes over, off course, they could take the opportunity.

 

What brings me to another thought - why the Minutemen don't seem to have a stance in the whole debate. Why should a faction that is lead by the player itself have a stance, if they adapt to the player's stance in the first place? (Okay, if you can stand Preston being utterly disappointed with you if it goes into a certain direction... ^^" Because I can't. :P)

[crawe1x]

@crawe1x: (Since this stupid browser doesn't let me quote you)

From that point of view you're right. They WOULD probably mess with the institute - buuut...

Until the player finds out where it is, or how to get in there, there literally is no way to oppose the institute. And with the Minutemen minimized to Preston only... Well who'd find out then?

If the player as their new General takes over, off course, they could take the opportunity.

 

What brings me to another thought - why the Minutemen don't seem to have a stance in the whole debate. Why should a faction that is lead by the player itself have a stance, if they adapt to the player's stance in the first place? (Okay, if you can stand Preston being utterly disappointed with you if it goes into a certain direction... ^^" Because I can't. :tongue:)

 

Yeah, but this goes back to one of my earlier posts here. Within the game, I think there are two separate debates going on. The Institute, BoS, and Railroad are focused on synths, AI, and all things technological. The Minutemen, Gunners and Raiders are focused on the Commonwealth's well-being (or lack of it). By not bothering to turn the Gunners and Raiders into major factions, Beth left the Minutemen dangling in the wind. They feel disconnected alongside the Institute, BoS, and Railroad; an unnecessary fourth spoke on the wheel (though ironically they're the only faction that I personally can empathize with). This is why they don't seem to have a stance in the debate - because the debate they were meant to be part of has been cut from the game, meaning they have been shoehorned into another debate (and one that isn't particularly relevant to them).

 

As far as the omissions go, the Raiders don't bother me so much - and no, I don't count Nuka World because it has no bearing on the Main Quest and contradicts everything else you've done in the game up until then. The Gunners' lack of characterization, however, is a huge failing on Bethesda's part. Honestly, I would have preferred more time spent on them then, say, the Railroad. We're told they are hard-headed mercenaries, but we see them doing very little mercenary work other than in the Devil's Due quest. Clearing out Quincy should be a big deal - on a par with reclaiming the Castle, because that is where the Minutemen were pretty much destroyed. Instead, it's just a sandbox firefight that you stumble into. As for the Gunners' headquarters, from the holotapes you pick up, I never could work out what the hell was going on between Captain Wes, Ryder and Cruz. So many loose ends...

Edited January 9, 2017 by crawe1x

[RedRocketTM]

But if Raiders or Gunners were a playable faction, why would they mess with the institute or anyone else? To show that they're the big guys ruling the Commonwealth from then on? :o

 

I'd never want to play a Raider (Not even in NW!) They need to be shot down on sight. Terrorists. :P

Knowing that MacCready was an ex-gunner, I wanted to abandon him at first. I'm glad I didn't, though, but Gunners are just as bad as Raiders, if not even worse. x.x

 

*sigh* I'm terrible, really. Even in games I'm driven by moral and can't be the bad guy... ^^" I'd be lost without the Minutemen. :D

[crawe1x]

I admit, it's tricky to work the Raiders into the Main Quest - but not impossible. Off the top of my head...

 

The Institute poses a threat to all surface dwellers, Raiders included. As part of a Raider playthrough, it would be down to you, the player, to unify the Raiders, creating an army of marauding outlaws. You then take the battle to the Institute. Could be a fun kill-everything-that-moves playthrough (and makes more sense then destroying your own settlements as is the case with Nuka World).

 

As for the Gunners, if they are indeed high-end mercenaries (which is how they are constantly described), then they are not innately evil. With the Minutemen pretty much finished, maybe the people of the Commonwealth have no choice but to save up all their bottlecaps and hire the Gunners to deal with the Institute. This would make them classic antihero types - and that is something I would happily play. Now of course, the way Beth currently portrays them, they're just Raiders in army fatigues. But that's just down to lazy implementation. As it stands, there's virtually nothing to distinguish Raiders, Gunners and even Super Mutants other than superficial appearance.

 

Now let's be clear - I'm not saying the above ideas are any good. :wink: But the fact that I can come up with a couple of ideas just off the bat tells me that Beth really didn't put much effort into these factions.

[RedRocketTM]

I never bothered finding out more about the Gunners. To me, they seemed just like Raiders, only ten times more annoying... xD

But they'd probably the one faction of the two who could maybe find a way inside the Institute. The Raiders... Well... I wouldn't call them very clever, otherweise they wouldn't be Raiders - they might kidnap someone and force them to work for them, because who else would? But yeah... Wouldn't be something I would like to play but I guess a lot of people would have great fun with it. :P

 

I haven't been to Nuka World yet, but I'll make sure that these Raiders get their but kicked over and over again. :D

[DoctorKaizeld]

It would be great if the gunners had better characterization instead of being a reskin of the Talon Company Mercs from FO3. At least there are attempts to separate the variois raider groups but it would be nice to actually see the fights among the raiders. NV did that in a couple places. Also the two dont even have to be playable. They just need more depth.

 

Also why vant we side with diamond city? That seems like a wasted opportunity right there. With the removal of the current mayor you could take over via an election quest or something.

 

The biggest flaw of the game in my opinion is lack of depth. Also the fact that there are only two non-DLC settlements you dont own.

[Ethreon]

Maybe I lack the vision or I'm blind, but to me Talons/Gunners don't make any sense. A merc company that kills everything in their path is not a merc company, it's just a highly armed gang, no more special than other raiders.

[DoctorKaizeld]

At least in FO3 they explain it. The group used to be tolerable but then grew in size to the point they turned into raiders to support themselves. There are also implications that a lot of what they do is bevause of Tennpenny. Also when you consider their locations it sort of makes sense they would shoot on site. Every location you find them in the DC ruins they are fighting a war of sorts against the supermutants and you are nothing more then a raider or scaver to them. At their fort it again makes sense. They're just defending themselves and everywhere else they are working jobs.

 

Their behaviour makes sense but the Gunners with only one or two instances are just over glorified raiders. There is no excuse for the behaviour. Really it never explained why they hated the Minutemen. Sure they probably felt that the MM were stealing work but the group is large enough that they couldn't possibly operate in the Common Wealth alone.

[crawe1x]

I can't comment on the Talons, but yes, in this game the Gunners make absolutely no sense. NPCs keep telling us that they're this crack mercenary group, when really they're nothing more than Raiders in combat armor.

 

And yes, lack of depth is a huge problem. Time and time again, Beth came up with great ideas that they then failed to fully explore. Certain factions and characters, the companion system, the entire settlement system... They all just feel bolted on.

 

The frustrating thing is that in spite of all these problems, the game is still - somehow - so damn playable. Speaking of which, I'm now off to build my new Sanctuary settlement for what must be the twentieth time. What is it they say about madness being the need to repeat the same mistakes over and over again? :wacko: