So, Do you play FO4 as a male or female?

[Moraelin]

"So one thing we came up with was training people to basically shoot before they have a chance to think about it. You know, those training courses where targets pop up, and the par time is lower than you have time for any kind of thought. People are drilled again and again to just identify the target and shoot at any hostile head that comes out of cover first, and think later, until it's acting on pure reflexes."

 

OK. But, before u pull that trigger -you have to identify F/F- which kinda indicates that there is a thought process. Even in that split second. More likely is that you don't have time to FEEL anything and that's where PTSD comes in. So, with that in mind, why would I feel any differently about shooting that tenth guy than the first? Whether it be a man or woman doing the shooting wouldn't matter that much.

Well, you hopefully don't have the time to think about whether you really want to shoot that guy or not. The point isn't to literally have no brain activity, which would be impossible. The point is to have the reflex kick in, rather than any kind of conscious decision.

 

That said, you're right that there is nothing magical about the tenth guy, nor about whether the shooter is a man or a woman. That wasn't supposed to be about gender roles. More like, what the real problem would be for either.

 

What I meant by conditioning is that you assert that everything in life is a conditioned response. What about instinct? What about the numerous situations where you have no experience to draw from. Some part of your particular personality comes into play there as it is new to you.

Not EVERYTHING. I was just talking about the decisions that are taken subconsciously, or rather, without some conscious thought being involved. Just saying that it's not some kind of Freudian cloak-and-dagger subconscious plotting to reveal stuff to you or hide stuff from you, but just a simple extrapolation machine up there.

 

Obviously this only works when you do have enough data to do that stuff without thinking much -- if at all -- about it. You know, like flicking the light switch or pouring yourself a coffee in the morning or such. You could navel gaze about what kind of deep subconscious meaning there is in, say, liking scrambled eggs or instinctively pouring a coffee even when you decided to cut down on that, but there is none. It's just what worked before.

 

But I never said that EVERYTHING happens on auto-pilot. A lot of the time you do have to think about it, and at that time, well, that's why you have a complex world model up there. A large part of it being culture-related.

 

So your mindset is just as important-if not more- than your training or conditioning. Napoleon's numerous victories were due in part to his ability to INSPIRE a "fighting" spirit in the troops he commanded. Demoralized men or women do not fight well. There is a WHOLE package in every person- not just the intellectual part.

Well, that and some solid grasp of combined arms strategies, and so on. Obviously there are lots of factors in combat, yes, including morale.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that you need some conditioning to actually shoot to kill. There's no indication that his infantry had any higher hit rate than everyone else's infantry, which was ridiculously low against other humans.

 

And here's an interesting thought on the subject of man vs woman. Is a woman any less a effective a combatant than a man- other than strength maybe. If so. Why? :geek:

Not sure there is. The soviets used a LOT of women in WW2, in all sorts of roles, and they seemed to be good at it. They literally had a whole unit of bomber pilots (the famous Night Witches.) They had women in tanks. They had women running around with 120mm mortars. And they had a LOT of women snipers. As in, whole companies of them.

 

Especially the snipers seemed to be REALLY good at it. They had some gals like Lyudmila Pavlichenko, aptly nicknamed "Lady Death", who raked up some 309 confirmed kills. If anything, they seemed to be more patient than the guys.

 

Of course, that can probably also be due to the fact that they were all volunteers. There's a bit of a self-selection there, I suppose. People who can't kill, probably don't volunteer for sniper training. Plus, you have to be pretty motivated to volunteer in the first place, or at least more motivated than the average folk who got conscripted and would rather be anywhere but on the front line.

[Fkemman11]

I only read the first few posts and the last few, this conversation got quite a bit deeper than I expected going in...

 

Because my number one reason for playing a female character is naturally the behind that I will be watching.

 

I also don't like to roleplay as anything remotely like myself, which is why I like playing lithe female characters who are in direct contrast to how buff I am in real life....

 

...not fooling anyone? Ok but I still like roleplaying as sort of off the wall type of characters and that often include female warriors-though most games especially set in ancient times have gone PC and make females just as capable and accepted as men in war...which is boring I want strife in RPGs.

 

It's very interesting that you bring that up. Because, from everything I have learned and been taught, females did not become warriors throughout most of history. Today, you see female warriors in many games. I view this as gross negligence by game devs to completely ignore women's struggle for equality. I think a women striving to break her gender stereotype in an era dominated by men is a most compelling story-especially those women who wanted to actually fight. I think it was brilliant on Bioware's part for including this with Sten in DAO. He asks " you are a women. Women do not fight. So you wish to be a man?". Which you reply to saying " No. I am a woman who wants to fight. Not to be a man." :cool: :kiss:

 

Nora herself, comes from a time when women did not VOTE - let alone fight. So the idea of her grabbing a gun and just jumping into the fray is kinda ridiculous.

 

Sometimes I think the intentional absence of something in a game (in this case female warriors) is much more interesting than their seamless inclusion. Sort of like setting out to prove someone wrong when they are juxtaposed to an idea. While I know there were other female warriors in that game- it was Sten's opposition that helped to set a tone.

 

What I have not seen (and would like to) is a game where a society of men and women was dominated by the WOMEN. Then that would lead to compelling circumstances for a male char. Lets be honest about one thing though. No matter how you feel about "stereotypes"- In most cases, the accompanied perception is usually very accurate. :geek:

[bmt12]

It's very interesting that you bring that up. Because, from everything I have learned and been taught, females did not become warriors throughout most of history. Today, you see female warriors in many games. I view this as gross negligence by game devs to completely ignore women's struggle for equality. I think a women striving to break her gender stereotype in an era dominated by men is a most compelling story-especially those women who wanted to actually fight. I think it was brilliant on Bioware's part for including this with Sten in DAO. He asks " you are a women. Women do not fight. So you wish to be a man?". Which you reply to saying " No. I am a woman who wants to fight. Not to be a man." :cool: :kiss:

 

Sometimes I think the intentional absence of something in a game (in this case female warriors) is much more interesting than their seamless inclusion. Sort of like setting out to prove someone wrong when they are juxtaposed to an idea. While I know there were other female warriors in that game- it was Sten's opposition that helped to set a tone.

 

What I have not seen (and would like to) is a game where a society of men and women was dominated by the WOMEN. Then that would lead to compelling circumstances for a male char. Lets be honest about one thing though. No matter how you feel about "stereotypes"- In most cases, the accompanied perception is usually very accurate. :geek:

 

Another thing that I did like in the original Dragon Age is that racism was an actual thing. Sure lots of games contain an element of it but you are rarely ever treated less because your chracter's race like you did if you played an elf in the game. Like you said overcoming things like that make for a much more compelling story.

 

With the prevailing attitude of many feminists in modern society I don't think a game like that would be too far fetched...but would a male character ever be allowed to win in such a game?

[Moraelin]

Nora comes from 2077. Even taking the Fallout universe to be fixed in the 1950's-1960's, in the USA the women gained the right to vote in 1919, though some states did give them right to vote as early as 1911. Since we're talking MA, probably 1919 is the date.

 

I.e., not only Nora would have the right to vote, it would already be 150 YEARS since women had that right.

 

Also on the topic of women in the army, about 13,000 women admitted into active duty in the Navy and Marines and a much smaller number admitted into the Coast Guard during World War ONE. That's almost half a century before history basically slows down in the Fallout universe.

 

But women knowing how to use a gun is much earlier than even that. A whole company of women sharpshooters offered their services in the American-Spanish war, though they were turned down. But at any rate, yeah, they had their own guns and ammo and knew how to use them.

 

Pretending that women's rights are THAT new isn't just ignorant, it's... what? Having managed to live under a rock? I don't know where people get the misogynist idea that women were all helpless and unable to even point and click a gun outside feminist fiction.

[bmt12]

Nora comes from 2077. Even taking the Fallout universe to be fixed in the 1950's-1960's, in the USA the women gained the right to vote in 1919, though some states did give them right to vote as early as 1911. Since we're talking MA, probably 1919 is the date.

 

I.e., not only Nora would have the right to vote, it would already be 150 YEARS since women had that right.

 

Also on the topic of women in the army, about 13,000 women admitted into active duty in the Navy and Marines and a much smaller number admitted into the Coast Guard during World War ONE. That's almost half a century before history basically slows down in the Fallout universe.

 

But women knowing how to use a gun is much earlier than even that. A whole company of women sharpshooters offered their services in the American-Spanish war, though they were turned down. But at any rate, yeah, they had their own guns and ammo and knew how to use them.

 

Pretending that women's rights are THAT new isn't just ignorant, it's... what? Having managed to live under a rock? I don't know where people get the misogynist idea that women were all helpless and unable to even point and click a gun outside feminist fiction.

Right, that's why there's not a big debate going on in the past few years about women in front line roles in the military. I guess we must be misogynists for even imagining a time before women were accepted in every role in society. In the Fallout universe women are not shown on the front line in the military and they infact removed(or just hid) references to Nora being a veteran, though I don't think it was ever stated why.

 

Women knowing how to use a weapon is something that no one is denying, maybe try actually reading these posts.

 

And for the record the first state in the US to give women suffrage was Wyoming in 1869, followed shortly by Utah the next year.

[snapper69]

When I picked my character at the beginning of the game I never even thought that the game might play differently, depending on the gender of the character, so I went with what I felt comfortable playing. Part way through my second playthrough I am still at a loss to see how the game would be materially different, other than some dialogue and some visuals, if I'd played as a female. Maybe it's the way that I play?

[Moraelin]

Yes, but what our friend was saying wasn't whether Nora would be accepted in every branch of the navy, but outright that, and this is a direct quote, "So the idea of her grabbing a gun and just jumping into the fray is kinda ridiculous."

 

I don't know how that even can be anything but mysoginistic. We're not just talking about whether there'd be frontline units of women in 2077, which is more about politics and other factors (e.g., the debate about women on submarines is about toilets and hot-bunking, not about whether they can do it), but but outright that it's "kinda ridiculous" that A woman could even grab a gun and start using it. Something which hasn't even been news for hundreds of years. Even in America it has been known since the war of secession that a couple of hundred women or so actually served on the front line.

 

We're not even in the domain of whether most can do it, or the feasibility of having whole units of them, or whatever, but outright that even *ONE* woman being exceptional enough to do it is somehow ridiculous.

[bmt12]

Yes, but what our friend was saying wasn't whether Nora would be accepted in every branch of the navy, but outright that, and this is a direct quote, "So the idea of her grabbing a gun and just jumping into the fray is kinda ridiculous."

 

I don't know how that even can be anything but mysoginistic. We're not just talking about whether there'd be frontline units of women in 2077, which is more about politics and other factors (e.g., the debate about women on submarines is about toilets and hot-bunking, not about whether they can do it), but but outright that it's "kinda ridiculous" that A woman could even grab a gun and start using it. Something which hasn't even been news for hundreds of years. Even in America it has been known since the war of secession that a couple of hundred women or so actually served on the front line.

 

We're not even in the domain of whether most can do it, or the feasibility of having whole units of them, or whatever, but outright that even *ONE* woman being exceptional enough to do it is somehow ridiculous.

I'll agree that was worded rather oddly but I didn't think that with the theme of the discussion that he meant anything like what you are suggesting, but I can't speak for other posters.

 

Honestly I was still talking about the Dragon age environment and other games set in ancient times more than a quasi-modern post apocalyptic wasteland-where anyone who could pick up a weapon would be expected to defend themselves with it.

[SignorNessuno]

I play both. Just for fun and see how is the world by the point of view of Nora and Nate.

[charwo]

I don't think objecting to the wife being the SS is misonygistic at all. There's no doubt about her backstory: she's a lawyer. SHe's completely unqualified for Fallout 4. That's not to say you couldn't have a really good, rags to riches lawyer in the wasteland story, but that's not what Fallout 4 is. Fallout 4 has no room for negotiation, critical thing, sharp wits or leadership. It is a game where everything boils down to living or dying by the gun in your hand. If I ever care enough to play the game with an actual character, I'm going to play the husband, because it suits him by temperament and training. And I say that because the US Army has always been an officer heavy fighting force where if you have no other skills you go into the infantry. You're meat. Otherwise, they make you a POG (person other than grunt). And the Husband is a grunt. The intro video shows this very clearly. He's not even a tanker, an artillery man or mechanized infantry or he'd be in power armor. He's a foot soldier, he's a meat shield for something or someone actually important.

This is your standard action hero: white, male, dark hair who knows how to fight, trained to survive and is more or less impervious to PTSD. That's the only kind of character that can hit the ground running in the wasteland. I played a pre-war Ghoul as my courier in Fallout New Vegas, but she had spent a lot of money on implants and combat training for when SHTF. This couple were not survivalists in any way shape of form. Look at their house, their lack of a Fallout shelter, no guns in the home, not even a victory plot to grow some fooddespite rampant food rationing. Plus the female's lines for the Silver Shroud just sound stupid