AWOP For FO4 Pros & Cons Official Thread

[djmystro]

A World of Pain for Fallout 4 (AWOP4FO4) PROS & CONS

 

As I get repeated requests for AWOP for FO4 I thought I'd make a post on my thoughts on this issue.

[The quick answer is, yes it probably will get made, just not for a long time if you are not in the mood to read everything]

 

PROS:

-Current popularity.

The current number of people actually interested in AWOP for FO4 is potentially much higher than the first two installments (right now at least) which would lead to lots of feedback which is my favorite form of payment.

-Monsters.

Lots more monster variation and potential for very high level encounters which suits the AWOP theme.

-Good Building assets.

Both interior and exterior building based assets are great, with lots of variation, big interior spaces and the option to add high rooftop battles, which in particular, is kinda unworkable in the older games. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the assets as a whole (and I'll come back to this later).

-Misc Loot.

The variety of random collectable items seems to be increased by, what feels to me from playing it, like about 50%. This will make cluttering each area with themed, rare or unique items much easier.

-It's a great game

FO4 was a lot of fun to play and for me at least, got most new stuff right, so it would most likely be fun to play through new AWOP themed content using this new platform.

 

 

 

CONS:

-New Dialogue System:

Up until the point I stopped playing FO4 (a few months ago), I would not get subtitles for main NPC dialogue, even with the subtitles turned on in the options menu. The only subtitled stuff seemed to be incidental NPC comments made when not directly talking to them. I saw in some YouTube vids for FO4 that this problem was fixed but I don't know whether this has been fixed by a patch or a user mod. As I don't want AWOP to have any masters/mod dependencies and I do not add any voice files this would mean there is still a chance I cannot add new NPCs to FO4 as they would have no way to communicate with the player.

There are ways around this for quests such as terminals and notes, but sadly not for vendors or general character interaction. If this was fixed by a patch someone let me know.

 

-Learning a new GECK.

I know the FO3/FNV GECK very well. I have probably over half the in game assets memorized by name and general height, length, brightness or whatever. I can build stuff fast and make it detailed (when I'm in the mood, but that's another story). Getting to this level has taken years and though it may give me a head start over others coming in new to the Creation Kit, I still do not look forward to having to memorize a new asset list.

 

-Underground Interior Assets:

From playing through the game I do not recall stumbling upon any large cave assets that would be required to add new areas like FNV AWOP's "The Underground", which is a shame to say the least. Even the DLCs don't seem to have added any large caves. This would mean all underground structures would have to be concrete bomb shelters/facilities and similar with small cave bits attached when required.

 

-Need to build in the exterior landscape.

Due to the lack of potential Underground locations which would have minimal entrances and edits to the worldspace as a whole, the obvious alternative is to add large buildings which can then house the equally large new interiors and make good use of what assets the game has to offer. Unfortunately, due partly to when I plan to start work on AWOP4FO4, I expect this would lead to numerous mod conflicts which I want to avoid as much as possible, not to mention potential game lag in heavily modded areas (new interiors do not suffer so much from this issue).

Most boarded up doors and unused doors will have been claimed by then by mods like Beantown Interiors which I intend to check out myself at some point.

One fix for this would be to build in existing locations and expand vanilla areas but this would prevent creating a lot of new AWOP lore and does not stick with the previous mod's style.

 

-FO3/FNV Community help.
There are many modders who are currently unwilling to work on FO4. A good example would be Roy Batty who helps me with a lot of bug fixing, scripting and many technical aspects of the AWOP mods, who is very busy with FNV/FO3 related projects such as Tale Of Two Wastelands.

 

-New FO4 Ideas:

I find it increasingly hard to come up with new original ideas for locations and though I have a few vague ideas for things I would like to add to FO4 (Rumble Zones leap to mind), in general, I just wont know what I can do until I open up and familiarise myself with the new GECK, so can't really plan ahead much.

 

-Does FO4 "Need" AWOP as much?

To me, the answer is no.

FNV, which partly inspired the first AWOP mod has always felt, to me at least, like an incomplete game and just no where near as fun or well constructed as FO3. A good example of this would be how the game near enough forces the player to play through the early-mid game southern half of the map in the same way every time by blocking off access to the north with Cazdores and Deathclaws and areas to the East with infuriating invisible walls, which detracted from the games replayability (for me at least). Also I could barely finish FNV at times, I just kept getting frustrated with exploring huge areas of the map and finding noting of value apart from maybe a crappy star bottle cap. Due to the massive map in FNV and the relatively small number of interior locations I had to start work on AWOP before I even 100%-ed the game like I usually would do, to address these problems and continue playing.

[EDIT: I feel I should point out that overall FNV was still a good game and I spent almost as long playing it as I did FO3, but to me I guess it reeked of missed opportunities. As a contrast I played the latest Doom game for about an hour before giving up in total frustration due to things such as checkpoint saving, over-simplification of the inventory and boring level design.]

AWOP at first was not very detailed and mainly focused on two things, combat and finding stuff where before there was nothing. Over time it became more refined to fit in with other players requests and became more of an art-project for me to make increasingly detailed and (hopefully) realistic locations, whilst also adding a challenge for anyone like me who find "very hard" settings to be a walk-over.

AWOP4FO3 I am especially proud of for it's general look, plot, playability and replayability. Due to my fondness of the original subject matter and inspired by DC Interiors in particular in terms of detailed clutter, I wanted to make it as good as it could possibly be, and it is this project that is currently taking up the bulk of my modding time.

FO4 just feels like a much more detailed game already when compared with FNV's empty spaces and the relative age of FO3. There's a lot more locations to explore, including hidden, non-quest related areas, some of which I still have not found despite many hours of searching (though without any guides so far).

The game is very replayable and offers a consistently enjoyable combat experience already.

There is also a ton of loot in FO4 and on top of that it all respawns so again, in this sense FO4 players will not find much they don't already have in plentiful supply at any new AWOP areas.

 

-Some Stuff I Don't Fully Understand Yet:

Roy pointed out a couple of things that I have not heard mentioned before, namely a pre-vis issue which impacts performance if you change anything in cells or worldspaces (how severe the effect is or why it exists I don't know right now). Also two mods cannot edit the same cell, only one mods changes will take effect... which will obviously cause problems with a mod like AWOP and will require some strategic pre-planning as to what areas are edited.

I tried to do a bit more research on these topics but I have not found any related message boards yet.

 

 

As you can see the Cons seem to out-weigh the Pros, for the time being at least.

I will most likely make AWOP4FO4 but I want to finish AWOP4FO3 (which I highly recommend checking out for any that have not already) first, then polish and expand some of the FNV mods I have released such as AWOP & The AWOP Monster Patch before I start work on FO4, mainly so the lore remains consistent throughout the AWOP series.

 

Let me know if you have any thoughts on these issues or any arguments (pro or con) that I may have missed.

Ideas for new FO4 locations are also welcome but I'll probably make a separate thread for those on a later occasion.

Ideally over time either myself or others will come up with creative solutions to the various cons posed by FO4 which should eventually help a great deal with AWOP4FO4's eventual design.

[Ethreon]

You could probably build into the mountains around the edge of the mountain or under the sea (there's a system of large pipes which could each lead to another area).

[WastelandAssassin]

aside from the suggestions by Ethreon , there are several caved in metro entrances in Boston , and many building that are blocked off , including some rather large buildings

also , I'm not sure if all the overpasses above Boston are reachable , so all of these may be viable starting locations for your lairs

 

as for interest in this , obviously it would be awesome to see this project in development

with the new and improved combat system , it would make your encounters so much more fun to deal with , especially since your added difficulty is well known and loved

another thing I would really love to see added , are the unique items you've added in previous AWOPs

FO4 , for all of it's new additions , rather messed up the whole uniques system in my opinion , so it would be interesting to see your touch in this area

 

all in all , it would be a shame to see people trying to force you into making this , although with the discussions over the last couple of days , I wouldn't be surprised to see people trying to

If you would though , I'm sure many people will gladly follow your work , and enjoy it in the future

 

best of luck to you , and thank you for all your hard work , present past and hopefully future :)

[djmystro]

Big thanks for the feedback already :)

I'll definitely add some under-water areas. I would be nice to have more excuses to explore the sea and I remember thinking about it a lot while playing the game (though no specific ideas leap to mind right now).

The mountains are always handy for adding new areas and I agree that the edge of the map could use a little work.

Existing Metros are likely to be used by other modders. What I like to do where possible with AWOP is to add doors where there were none before, usually on previously blank walls or large cliff faces. This way I seem to have avoided a lot of potential conflicts in the past.

I agree that in theory it would be fun to playthrough with the new combat mechanics especially. My main concern is the lack of new unique location ideas right now but, with any luck, those will come over time.

 

As for unique items any suggestions here would be more than welcome.

My only thoughts so far have been new weapon frames that focus on an auto build by nature, thus giving a buff to auto stats whilst potentially decreasing efficiency with single shot mode (most likely mainly in the form of accuracy).
There should be a lot of room for similar AWOP items from previous mods like the Fresh Food variants from FO3 and the the recipes from both main AWOP mods, but anything that has not been used before I am open to suggestions for.

 

I don't think I could be forced into making another AWOP. It would have to be because I want to, which at this stage, is definitely something I'd like to do, though my FO3 & FNV plans are taking priority right now, and in context with how they started, feel nearly finished (though FO3 is still gonna keep me busy for a while yet, probably several months, maybe longer).

[gunslinger6792]

The good thing about metros is they can be placed or atleast in terms of access in different areas away from other modders. For example you could a D6 esque metro system that was done by the military? As far as angles to work with we have some lore to suggest that the Mob was very powerful in the aftermath of the Great War. They were certainty strong enough to lay siege and sieze the mayors compound. As for why to build an AWOP in fallout 4 I'd say the biggest reason is lack of story. Fallout 4 for many of it's locations have no reason to be explored and more importantly no story to them. AWOP has always given a story to it's locations and it's the single thing I miss most in fallout 4. I'd be more than willing to assist as possible, my own modding abilities I'd like to think are semi good at this point. At the end of the day it's your thing and I completely understand if it's something you don't want to do. It's a hobby and an art, something that can't be forced.

[djmystro]

Thanks for the reply Gunslinger :)

I agree the Metros would work well in a new AWOP, they have a lot of good assets for those in FO4 and a linked system set up by the Government would be a nice touch and a good excuse to add them into unusual and potentially hidden areas.

The mob remnants would also make pretty decent low-mid level enemies and would have been able to finance various shelters so that should fit in nicely.

I'm glad you liked the story-telling in AWOP. I'm never sure whether I got it right in FNV or not one way or another, though I guess it varies depending on which location. I added most FNV notes for others rather than myself (I almost prefer the location to tell the story on it's own, but notes don't really harm the end product). I was happy with the FO3 content though so I'm definitely glad that it is appreciated, a lot of the new FO3 content being added has numerous in-depth back stories, so I'll definitely continue that trend when I move onto FO4 (where possible).

Thankyou as well for the offer or assistance, I may well need it when the time comes :)

[Ethreon]

There is a specific area which has a large shipwreck in the distance, intangible without cheats or open borders of sorts. I've always been pissed you cannot get there. Same area has a bunch of big pipes on the sea bed. And then you got the Glowing sea which is mainly empty and void of anything.

[montky]

@ethreon

re post #7 in this thread,

that wouldn't happen to be that Poseidon offshore oil bulb and the crashed shipping freighters out in Boston Bay?

if you turn the water off, there's a lot of stuff going on out in Boston Bay and off-shore.

there sure are a lot of pipes there - they'd probably be like those tubes in Futurama or Portal.

there are signs there was also a settlement floating on pontoons etc out there...

 

It would make a great location for the Enclave,

along with K21b, and Poseidon Natick.

or, the interconnection to University Point Restored and Good Institute.

weren't Mama Murphy, Sturges and the gang from Quincy originally going to have been from an offshore vault/underwater community?

Isn't that also where Rusty the robot is from?

-----

 

@djmystro

this thread is frankly awesome, and thanks for sharing it

AWOP for FO4 would take FO4 to a whole new level of awesome.

 

I hope such a project would not be reliant on DLC,

so your line of thought in 'con #1" is already awesome to hear!

ideally AWOP FO4 would be interoperable with

"the under-boston" and "Enclave Returns'

or "good institute/bad institute' overhaul projects too.

 

A whole new faction of "Under-bostonians" would make FO4 fun;

though at the same time, FO4 already riffs quite heavily on Futurama...

the under-boston is an interconnected series of access areas and pre-war squatter settlements.

 

that said,

there is a lot of lore in FO4 that is not yet explored.

there are disjointed continuities between FO3, FONV and FO4.

this is partly a noticeable linearity of FO4 compared with the endgames possible in FO3 and FONV.

FO4 assumes a pastiche of all different kinds of gamestates from previous games, and makes that combination (which could only have formed via replays etc) 'canonical'.

 

What happened during the Diamond City Attack in 2180s? Who helped Diamond City, and how did that attack happen?

Who are the Atom Cats? are they descended from the Central BoS or Rogue BoS + Enclave or Enclave Remnant? they could be very "romeo and juliet"...

Is there a Good Institute and Bad Institute? who is on what side, and who had what misgivings about the University Point Massacre? why is the head of the SRB as mentioned in FO3 still on sabbatical in FO4? - could the Head of the SRB be part of the railroad too?

what are the implications of Virgil's FEV cure? (riffing on Xmen 3)

Why can't other candidates be installed as The Institute Director?

How did the Institute get around the Commonwealth prior to the teleporter, or if the teleporter malfunctions?

Why are there APC's and tanks and X-O1s and crashed post-war vertibirds scattered around the commonwealth? these indicate some other event post 2077 surely.

Where is the Enclave? They could not have been vanquished so easily.

Why are the BoS functionally indistinct in FO4 from their ancient adversaries - the Enclave?

- a lot of BoS fans dislike how the BoS was portrayed in FONV and FO4 especially.

How did the BoS acquire rivet city to form the Prydwyn?

Who or what is P.A.M. and who is her "brother" she alludes to? --- (there are copious nods to "I have no mouth, and I must scream")

What happened to the Minutemen between 2180 and 2290 for them to get to a situation where Preston Garvey passes the torch immediately?

How is V111, The Memory Den, and Stanislaus Braun connected? - is it possible to revive all the V111 vault dwellers, or make them synths?

How does Robert House know Emogene Cabot? Could House return?

Is Lorenzo truly lost and evil, or was he merely conducting science ahead of the time the Cabots are from?

Why are there Gary toyblocks everywhere around FO4, emanating from V75, and no gary?

Why can't the commonwealth form detente like the NCR? - BoS, Good Institute, Railroad, Minutemen, Diamond City, Goodneighbor etc.

Where did KLEO form their personality?

Why is takahashi only able to respond in particular ways?

 

those are just some implicit questions in FO4,

I'm sure you'll also come up with awesome standalone stuff if AWOP is anything to go by!

thanks for AWOPs past, and I'm looking forward to seeing an AWOP for FO4 emerge,

as the non-DLC base game would be so much more awesome for it!

[djmystro]

Ethreon:

I'll keep an eye out for the shipwreck & pipes and see if I can think of a use for them.
I totally agree about the Glowing Sea. It has a lot of potential for new areas due to how far apart all the locations are.

montky:

Thanks for the detailed feedback :smile:

The main AWOP mod would only require FO4, though I may make expanded versions using DLC content once the vanilla version is complete (but I also planned to do this for FO3 & FNV AWOP and I doubt that at this stage it will ever happen).

I'm currently unfamiliar with most FO4 mods as there were not many released when I last looked and none I could find involved new combat/exploration areas (the only mods I had were simple ones like Easy Lockpick/Hacking, Increased Carryweight & Ammo crafting). It will probably be a while (after the FO3 & FNV projects) before I mod FO4 any further but I'll keep the mods you listed in mind for compatability's sake at least.

 

An Under-Boston would be interesting. I guess it could all be interconnected like a vast sewer system as opposed to a series of large caves, with small settlement remnants spread throughout. No friendlies though unless they fix that dialogue system.

 

I had trouble answering or coming up with theories to a lot of the questions you posed.

I don't plan on modifying the Institute at all. I guess as a faction they don't really interest me that much.

The Enclave, on the other hand, I would definitely like to add at some point. Most likely remnants who have formed their own army, much like Scowell's crew became the Tech Raiders from FNV AWOP. Your observation about the crashed post-war aircraft hinting at a large battle that took place a long time ago would tie in well with the Enclave. Maybe they were the aggressors (as usual) or maybe they were defending Boston and have been licking their wounds from the battle ever since. Given the lack of conversation options though, they would probably have to be entirely hostile towards the player for one reason or another.

 

I'm not happy with the direction the BOS has taken in FO4. I hope that will change over time. All the factions kinda felt forced into the eventual ending of destroying or siding with the Institute, with little room for the player to unite warring factions (which was a nice touch in FNV) or have much of an impact on the end result at all. In fact, though I only completed the game twice (once as BOS and once as Railroad) I noticed I got the exact same, relatively short ending video, which I must say after the exeptional, variable, emotional endings from previous games this felt like a massive let-down from FO4.

 

The Cabot's are very old, I believe from memory they were alive during the late 1800s and have been extending their lifespan with the mysterious serum. In this timescale and given their wealth and influence it is easy to see how they would have moved in the same circles as House. However the Cabot's story feels well contained and complete already so I would not like to add much too it. On the other hand I could picture a secret lab filled with alien tech that Jack has kept hidden from everyone.

 

Having a Gary appearance would probably be cool, but again no way to add dialogue right now, so no conversations (as limited as they may be with a Gary anyway).

 

Anyway thanks again for all your suggestions. :smile:

[Ethreon]

There is Plenty of Exploration, Beantown Interiors, and at least 3 metro related mods. If I were to make this, I'd go for the underwater, glowing sea and the mountains as they are mostly unused and empty, but it's all up to you. Asset wise, there's a variety of undeground stuff, a lot of it being concrete/brick, some caves, a few vault sets (including full folders of meshes used nowhere).