OBSE - why use it, why don't use it

[nosisab]

I know, there is a Direct to disk version of Oblivion that is not supported by OBSE, at least for now and maybe will never be. Yet, there are things that could be accomplished with it that would be very difficult to be done (if even were possible), or just would turn bigger mods a turtle hulk, without it.

 

I know it's not fair to say to one that bought D2D, sorry pall, you just got caught on a 'arapuca', but sadly is like the things are.

 

It's very impressible, almost so impressible as the mod itself, that some could be ever done without OBSE, Midas Spells of Magic being just one among several to accomplish this deed. But must be remembered, OBSE implement some functions that would be possible to emulate via scripting, but the former would does it 10x, 20x..., times faster, and would be of much less impact on process power.

 

Oblivion, even vanilla, is a very demanding game over machine requirements, so the less our mods contribute to weight it the better. Otherwise the less requirements our mods have, more it would benefit the most.

 

So, if we can we must avoid using OBSE functions, but we must use good sense too. If we were doing large trunks of code where could be used a single function call, if they are to be repeated several times or just are so much, its time to review the design. At this point I would advise to keep two versions, one OBSEed and another more conservative.

[Vagrant0]

OBSE itself doesn't raise the system requirements or impact performance in any noticable way. It's only people using scripting methods which are irresponsible, or outright wrong, that these sorts of performance issues can be seen. The choice of using OBSE really has more to do with wanting to allow even inexperienced players the abliity of using your mod without having to learn how to install and configure OBSE or any other element. For something that is so "easy" to install, there sure seem to be enough people reporting difficulty. Saying that this isn't an important considderation is really just an admittance of your own elitism (not that you are, but others certainly have). If stupidity wasn't being catered to already, OMOD format wouldn't be as common as it is.

 

I don't use OBSE because I havn't had a reason to use it. Most of the OBSE requiring mods are either flashy mods which end up doing something that wasn't intended by the game through unorthadox means to create an effect somewhat like what is being described (dual wield mods, mounted spellcasting, deadly reflexes). And due to how these things are accomplished by these mods, certain ones are rather easy to break or have conflicts. For my own modding uses, I find the existing functions capable enough for what I want to do. The only thing that might make me considder otherwise would be a greater support for music functions (keeping the game from stopping streamed music upon area change).

 

For most people, modding using OBSE isn't needed. A good portion of "OBSE required" mods don't actually seem to use anything OBSE related beyond just the link to a masterfile. Meaning that the thought is to include it because it's there, not because it's being used n any way. This is not counting those things which are done with OBSE, but could be done in a similar way without OBSE.

 

That said, OBSE does have its uses. Many of the conditions and detection methods are a bit more flexible, and can return a wide range of values which cannot be obtained in any other way, as well as a means of altering those values. Unfortunately it seems to only be those mods from skilled scripters that even attempt to make use of these things.

[nosisab]

OBSE itself doesn't raise the system requirements or impact performance in any noticable way. It's only people using scripting methods which are irresponsible, or outright wrong, that these sorts of performance issues can be seen. The choice of using OBSE really has more to do with wanting to allow even inexperienced players the abliity of using your mod without having to learn how to install and configure OBSE or any other element. For something that is so "easy" to install, there sure seem to be enough people reporting difficulty. Saying that this isn't an important considderation is really just an admittance of your own elitism (not that you are, but others certainly have). If stupidity wasn't being catered to already, OMOD format wouldn't be as common as it is.

 

I don't use OBSE because I havn't had a reason to use it. Most of the OBSE requiring mods are either flashy mods which end up doing something that wasn't intended by the game through unorthadox means to create an effect somewhat like what is being described (dual wield mods, mounted spellcasting, deadly reflexes). And due to how these things are accomplished by these mods, certain ones are rather easy to break or have conflicts. For my own modding uses, I find the existing functions capable enough for what I want to do. The only thing that might make me considder otherwise would be a greater support for music functions (keeping the game from stopping streamed music upon area change).

 

For most people, modding using OBSE isn't needed. A good portion of "OBSE required" mods don't actually seem to use anything OBSE related beyond just the link to a masterfile. Meaning that the thought is to include it because it's there, not because it's being used n any way. This is not counting those things which are done with OBSE, but could be done in a similar way without OBSE.

 

That said, OBSE does have its uses. Many of the conditions and detection methods are a bit more flexible, and can return a wide range of values which cannot be obtained in any other way, as well as a means of altering those values. Unfortunately it seems to only be those mods from skilled scripters that even attempt to make use of these things.

 

I'm not a native english speaker, so some grammatical constructions I use can be less clear I thought it was. I don't said OBSE charges the system, just the opposed. The mathematical and trigonometric functions are examples where the direct implementation would boost performance a not insignificant bit.

 

And the point is just as you say, if not needed, there is no reason to turn a mod dependent of any other thing except the game itself where this can be avoided. Otherway, there are things that just would not be possible to accomplish without OBSE, and for most of the times they really are things 'uncommon' to common quests, but its capabilities over target characteristics retrieving and control were not even yet used at they full potential.

 

The purpose of this topic is just to discuss the pros and cons of each approach, what use. Is it really needed? there's not a way to accomplish what I want without increasing dependencies? ... and so on

[LHammonds]

As for a why or why not, I do not really see a reason why you wouldn't run Oblivion without OBSE unless you do not plan on installing any mods that require it.

 

Currently, there are MANY mods that require OBSE. Doing a quick Tag Search, there are about 100 mods that have been tagged with the OBSE tag and I seriously doubt that all OBSE mods have been tagged so there are bound to be even more. If your PC is on the brink of not being able to play Oblivion, you probably shouldn't be messing with any mods other than those that increase performance. My gaming rig is over 5 years old and still able to run Oblivion fairly well (even modded).

 

As for actual reasons you cannot use OBSE, there is the issue with Direct2Drive (cannot even install Official patches with that silly version). But another issue is with any "NoDVD" patches that replace or patch Oblivion.exe to remove the DVD check. I have a No DVD crack for just about every game I own. Why? Because I do not care to play the DVD finding game any time I wish to play a different game. I tend to leave game CDs out on my desk and that is an absolute No-No at my house now that there are five little ones (under the age of 6) running around just waiting for the opportunity to destroy something. I have all my PC equipment up on the top of shelves to avoid those little fingers turning off my PC and doing who-knows-what other kinds of damage. ;) Anyways...back on topic...

 

Those are the only three reasons I can think of as to why you might not or cannot use OBSE. It really should just be considered one of those things you simply install as part of your base installation of Oblivion...kinda like those Official and Unofficial Patches. ;)

 

LHammonds

[nosisab]

LHammonds, yes, this is the view point of the user, but what about the modder view? the questions are yet valid. Sure, tagging a mod as dependent of others will reduce the number of users able to run it, and the one that just make dependent mods without need would be doing a bad thing to himself.

 

As user and as I can, in this particular rig and environment, use OBSE without perceptible problem; I can't see one only reason in not doing so (needn't to say I use so much mods tagged OBSE dependent, so...).

 

As for children, I know well of this, hehe ... mines are now over twenties, but wasn't ever this way :)

[DarkWarrior45]

LHammonds, yes, this is the view point of the user, but what about the modder view? the questions are yet valid. Sure, tagging a mod as dependent of others will reduce the number of users able to run it, and the one that just make dependent mods without need would be doing a bad thing to himself.

 

As user and as I can, in this particular rig and environment, use OBSE without perceptible problem; I can't see one only reason in not doing so (needn't to say I use so much mods tagged OBSE dependent, so...).

 

As for children, I know well of this, hehe ... mines are now over twenties, but wasn't ever this way :)

 

As for the modder's view, let me explain my dilemna in my own project:

 

One dilemna I have is a decision as to whether or not to use OBSE to detect certain mods that are loaded in conjunction with mine, so that adjustments can be made in game without the need for a compatibility patch. While this would solve minor compatibility problems, the thing about "idiot-proofing" always comes into play. I was taught the philosophy, "don't let the customer hang themself," and care should be taken in the design of a product as to some form of idiot-proofing. So I'm hesistant to use OBSE in my project for that very reason. But of course I'm also paranoid too... Or at least that's what my friends tell me.

 

 

As for Direct2Drive, I don't see any support for it with OBSE at all. The reason is that modding with D2D is much like modding with 360; ain't happening. Why? Encryption. Yes, it is very unfortunate that support for modding on D2D, 360, and PS3 is nill, as it would expand on the modding community and do a lot of good. Both for modders and the game developers. But, certain companies have chosen to encrypt their platforms and to not allow modding. It is not the fault of the modders, but rather some big bucks executive who doesn't want their copyright infriged on.

 

Just my two cents worth.

[Vagrant0]

D2D isn't a platform change, it's because of security measures which are involved with being able to download a whole game legally. Basically they need to change the .exe file so that it either only runs on that computer, or only runs when a specific liscensing software is present. In trying to alter the .exe to work with OBSE they would probably be breaking some laws since they would either need to bypass this system, or atleast analyze it enough to reincorporate it into their version of the .exe (which would open the door for such a bypass). Or ateast this is my understanding of the issue (probably wrong in a few places).

 

Unfortunately D2D is a better initial option to some due to the fact that you can just download the game legally, and don't have to either order and wait, or find it in a store (impossible to those living in remote places). Most people who buy D2D are just doing it for the sake on conveiniance, and only realize the downsides to things afterward. And for most games, the downsides really aren't much of an issue.

[chris 07]

Then how do i run obse then hm?

 

Well obse allows you to use mods that add things like spear animations, crossbows ect that really add to the game.

[nosisab]

At the extremes seems there's no doubts about where and when use OBSE. Don't use it or whatever other tool, if you can go without then. Just obvious in these cases. The troubles I meant were the ones of the kind: oh, this and that would be nice in my mod, but I can't do it without OBSE. Yet I could sacrifice some originality and do it on more conventional way. But... :confused: those little things would be so nice...

 

Twilight zone, the one where your decisions are not anymore over "I can" and "I can't" and becomes "Must I?"

[chris 07]

No you dont HAVE too but its a great addition, and adds many more great additions to your gaming experience overall.