Your Chance to Rant about Entitled Mod Users for FO4

[llamaRCA]

 

But, in my experience there are two types of folks that complain about mods and tend to be the most vocal about their discontent.

There is a third type you can add to the list that I've only recently encountered: those who think your mod is missing some feature they can't live without and try and add it by using console commands without fully understand what they are doing. They then turn around and blame you for doing something nefarious to the mod when their little experiment doesn't go as planned. Of course, reading mod descriptions doesn't apply to this group either.

 

 

I think the console command issue is real, but I don't blame players. I think it's a community problem. Players think the console exists so they can have whatever they want in a game and seem to think it was put there for that express purpose. In all my years of modding (since FO3) I haven't seen very many comments telling players they are wrong in that assumption. Here's the wiki page for console commands in FO4. It's just a fact based page telling you how to change your game via the console, not telling you that you should be careful if you choose to change it via the console. There should be a warning telling players they can fatally mess up their games if they don't know what they are doing (and may do so even if they do), but I never see those. Well, I tell players that, but they probably think I'm being alarmist.

[MissingMeshTV]

 

 

 

I think the console command issue is real, but I don't blame players. I think it's a community problem. Players think the console exists so they can have whatever they want in a game and seem to think it was put there for that express purpose. In all my years of modding (since FO3) I haven't seen very many comments telling players they are wrong in that assumption. Here's the wiki page for console commands in FO4. It's just a fact based page telling you how to change your game via the console, not telling you that you should be careful if you choose to change it via the console. There should be a warning telling players they can fatally mess up their games if they don't know what they are doing (and may do so even if they do), but I never see those. Well, I tell players that, but they probably think I'm being alarmist.

 

Agree 100% since the main reason the console exists is for testing and debugging, not spawning workbenches into interior cells that weren't designed to have them.

[Ethreon]

Pretty sure when I went in to learn about console commands there were warnings in various places in the text. Hope they didn't get removed.

[Goffender]

I haven't read all the posts so this is to the OP. YES, I aggree. I personally am happy to see peps still working on mods. Maybe FO4 isn't dead yet! I see 2 causes for this problem. 1 many pepole are spoiled due the over abundance of pRemo mods for Skyrim. 2 FO4 brings such high hopes but comes up short in so many ways. It desparately needs more bigger and better mods.

 

Thankyou for bringing this up and thanks to all the mod authors who continue to slave for our immersion needs.

[tomomi1922]

I haven't read all the posts so this is to the OP. YES, I aggree. I personally am happy to see peps still working on mods. Maybe FO4 isn't dead yet! I see 2 causes for this problem. 1 many pepole are spoiled due the over abundance of pRemo mods for Skyrim. 2 FO4 brings such high hopes but comes up short in so many ways. It desparately needs more bigger and better mods.

 

Thankyou for bringing this up and thanks to all the mod authors who continue to slave for our immersion needs.

 

There are 2 sides to the story. Sure, I have seen enough of rude and unappreciative users who straight out complained and demean the creators, as if they paid $20 for that mod. In fact, I wouldn't be as aggressive complaining about defective products I bought on Amazon.

 

However, story from the other side also exists where mod creators feel entitled and abusive. Yes they designed their mods. But it is uncalled for to act so high and mighty either to belittle users or treat them like how Apple treats its customers (sometimes can be super patronizing). I have experienced mod creators spewing marketing assurances like "Just install, it will work, it will fix your problem" while avoiding discussing details at all cost, like only them know anything about mods and all of us can't even tell a .dds from a .esp. And they absolutely treat their work as "classified patented industrial secrets" as if we can going to steal their secrets and put them out of business while making millions of dollars for ourselves. And other, they absolutely want to hear nothing but praises. Not even constructive criticism. I do see it is horrific if someone is pestering and demanding for changes (like exporting to console, have male version of the armor, etc....) in rather demanding tones. But sometimes I simply want to bring up certain suggestions and thoughts that perhaps make their mods even better and more widely acceptable. And they can respond with something sensible and say no due to so and so reason. But no, some of them reacted so negatively as if I called out their entire ancestry. One even banned me straight out because he didn't like the fact I said anything other than praises.

 

Imo, people should have better understanding. First, mod users should generally understand that mod creators aren't paid by Bethesda with their six figure salary and they worked so hard to bring these wonderful mods out for free. At the very least, a friendlier, more appreciative tone would make a huge difference. I bet 90% of console gamers do not know this. That's one of the reason I didn't publish my mods because I don't see any reason to feed these unappreciative assholes. And second, mod creators should understand that humility is a virtue. I am not saying all mod creators are like this. But over all .... I feel the vibe. So if you created a wonderful rifle or armor mod, with a feature I kept failing at getting it right... it would be nice if maybe you can give me a hint of what to look at, instead of straight out telling me "you better stick with being a dumb user". Sometimes a mod is just so perfect, but it is missing something small, or something is too much .... and I nicely asked how to fix it myself .... 90% of the time I didn't get a response or straight out telling me "you get what you get". Yep, after almost a year since FO4, I finally figured out how to change weapon base damage, distance, and AP cost (with a lot of trial and error). I could have told anyone how to do it in 5 minutes (providing you already know how to use FO4edit).

Edited June 1, 2017 by tomomi1922

[PoorlyAged]

I sympathize with @tomimi and some of the points made above are valid. But let me make some counter points.

 

The operative word in "constructive criticism" is 'constructive'. Constructive criticism comes with ways to build up and improve the objects or ideas under review. Comments on mods which purported to be "constructive" but in fact contained no helpful information for making improvements are just useless noise. These comments are simply users pointing at things which they don't like or want changed and labeling the comments constructive. And constructive criticism does not come from users who are not using a mod. Comments like "your texture it too bright" and "our weapon is overpowered" from users who are not even using the mod are not constructive, It is just meaningless criticism based on something the user objected to in the description or the accompanying images.

 

Every PC and 'console' gamer I have met knows that mods are made by schlubs like me They know that mod creators generally make mods for themselves and share them with the world just to make someone else's game play more enjoyable, easier or just different. They know damned well that mod creators are not paid. But that knowledge doesn't stop some users from acting like mod creators work for them. They make unreasonable accusations and demands. ANY response from a mod creator which does not seem obsequious enough is labeled abusive and demeaning to the user. When a user asks for a change to a mod and the mod author says "NO", the author is not being an asshole. But that doesn't stop users from the accusation.

 

Users not possessing a PC to create their own mods is not an excuse for unreasonable demands of mod authors. It is technically possible to make every Raider, Gunner, Super Mutant, insect and Death Claw have the face of the users boss, But when a mod author says 'NO', it is not the mod author that is being unreasonable.

 

And excusing user behavior because they lack understanding of the modding process is just so much garbage. There is no excuse for deliberate bad manners. A quick sharp punch to the nose is the only response that deliberate bad manners deserve, but our social boundaries prevent us from taking such action (I am not advocating violence). If some mod authors choose to deliver the punch via the keyboard, then so be it. Some users go out of their way and work extra hard to earn the privilege of being treated dismissively; they should be rewarded for their efforts.

 

Quoting from the description to answer a users question about a mod in not demeaning a user. Telling a user to read the Read_Me.txt file is not belittling a user. Telling a user 'no' is not being dismissive. Telling a user to read Bethesda's EULA is not being argumentative. Telling the user about the the limits of the Ck is not lying to get out of creating a mod. Yet I have seen users go off the rails for each of these and become abusive in their own right. I even saw where one user ranted and profaned and swore that mod authors were conspiring together to keep from making a mod the user wanted (as if mod authors can agree on just about anything).

 

So @tomimi, some what you say is true. But you might want to turn the coin over and look at the other side a little more objectively.

[tomomi1922]

 

And excusing user behavior because they lack understanding of the modding process is just so much garbage. There is no excuse for deliberate bad manners. A quick sharp punch to the nose is the only response that deliberate bad manners deserve, but our social boundaries prevent us from taking such action (I am not advocating violence). If some mod authors choose to deliver the punch via the keyboard, then so be it. Some users go out of their way and work extra hard to earn the privilege of being treated dismissively; they should be rewarded for their efforts.

 

Quoting from the description to answer a users question about a mod in not demeaning a user. Telling a user to read the Read_Me.txt file is not belittling a user. Telling a user 'no' is not being dismissive. Telling a user to read Bethesda's EULA is not being argumentative. Telling the user about the the limits of the Ck is not lying to get out of creating a mod. Yet I have seen users go off the rails for each of these and become abusive in their own right. I even saw where one user ranted and profaned and swore that mod authors were conspiring together to keep from making a mod the user wanted (as if mod authors can agree on just about anything).

 

So @tomimi, some what you say is true. But you might want to turn the coin over and look at the other side a little more objectively.

 

I think you have a few misunderstood points, and we are a lot more on the same side than you think.

 

I never masked "constructive criticism" as a form of demanding complaint. I can't speak for everyone, but 99% of the time I came off bringing up a concern I have, and with my best knowledge, offer a solution and/or suggestion. I personally find comments like "OMG your weapon sucks" very offensive (even it doesn't involve me at all). It is a feedback, but it offers no detail and too much aggression, helps nobody but showing all bad manners. If you notice, I often write more than others because I do take the time to write what others consider "excessive", such as a friendly question/suggestion/criticism nicely sandwiched in a praise and/or a thank. It's not manipulative, it is just kindness and to make sure the creators know how much I appreciate their works.

 

I never said "read the readme.txt file, read description and FAQ carefully" as a form of abuse. In fact, I hope everyone reads it because most people don't seem to (and sometimes I am also guilty of that). If I am spending hours to write a detailed FAQ, description, change log, etc.... (and beautifying it with nice font, color, etc...) and you just gloss over and ask me the exact same 10 questions I covered ... I would be so very pissed. Although sometimes there is a big grey area here. Some very big mods (like Raider Overhaul) by Thirdstorm, it's huge, and even if I read things over 2-3 times I may miss things. Thirdstorm felt frustrated I asked things he covered, to which I explained to him the details were so overwhelming that sometimes I couldn't just absorb and make sense of them all.

 

I also never said creators cannot say No. In fact, my "perfect world" interaction would be for creators to read and try to understand my point. And if he/she is to say no, citing CK limitation, citing "works already done, too late to go back and redo so many things", citing "no time in busy life to fix the mod", etc... it is perfectly understandable and acceptable. In some cases, I even made the changes myself and offered the creators if they wanted to offer users more option. If they don't reply, then no sharing.

 

What I am trying to advocate is mutual understanding. Social boundaries, culture, manner, politeness, respect .... should be observed and encouraged. I never said any of the above as excuse for bad manner people to reign free. But bad manners do not always reside on the users' side, but also creators' side, whether deliberate or not. Honestly, I feel that both sides need to be more supportive and encouraging. As a user, lots of time I give feedback to better the mod itself than for my own need (because I already can fix on my end). I also genuinely want to learn (instead of being a dumb user hoping all mods are plug-and-play). And who knows, one of these days, I can join the rank as one of the top content creator here on Nexus, where you will truly love and appreciate my mods? But I will never get there if I am constantly being shut out.

 

All right, here is a little expertise of me: I build mashed up outfits (like Elianora) and modify Outfit Studio projects. And one problem I largely notice: people do not use CBBE template body as reference. They seem to believe the Outfit Studio project is meant to convert to their custom body... but that would give so much problem if the outfit is not based on a standardized CBBE template. All outfits should convert to template body. Bodyslide is where we build our custom outfit to preset. Outfits that didn't follow this method will end up so much harder (if not impossible) to work with. GITS outfit is one of the example. As much as I enjoyed it, I would have to do so much work to get the outfits to work with my my game, to let me use that jacket to mix with other outfit and not end up clipping. Imagine having to "convert" every single downloaded outfits (and taking 2-3 hours) before you can use it in game .... where Bodyslide is meant to let you build outfit with your preset in 5 minutes (and perhaps make minor adjustment, since nothing is perfect). Not all outfit creators seem to understand this, and some of them come back very negatively as if their method is the perfect method.

[Fkemman11]

I wonder why some authors just drop things right in the middle of an update or something. They talk about this and that being included in the next update and then just fall off the radar. Some give explanations while others do not. Recently I have seen a mod that is trying to continue where another left off. But the original author had some great things in the works that they never released. Made videos showcasing them and everything. PM the original to release content for continuation and have not received a response. It would be nice if the authors would still share content even after they leave.

[AGreatWeight]

@Fkemman11 It was most likely a w.i.p. update that didn't pan out and the author came up against a wall that prevented them from finishing the update. Or perhaps they lost interest? Or real life issues got in the way? Or their passion for making mods faded and they lost interest? Who knows...

 

"It would be nice if the authors would still share content even after they leave" - I'm struggling a lot to understand the logic of this, sorry. It almost sounds like you're saying that mod authors should continue to work-on/release updates for their mods even when they've chosen to leave the modding 'community' or even stop modding completely? How exactly does that work now? Do you not see the inherent problem with this statement you've made?

[StarMystyk]

I read it more as, 'release what you've done even if not complete.' I've seen that in another game I play. The modder left the game but uploaded what they'd been working on, all his partial and some completed stuff. (Romero mod for State of Decay).

I've done similar with a New Vegas mod. I had a mod I was working on, couldn't quite get it how I wanted so ended up leaving it as is and changing permissions to be open, to allow others to pick up where I left off if they want.

A Fallout 3 mod I was working on years ago got to the same point, but I just abandoned it (like what Fkemman11 is complaining about), hid it and pulled the file. Since then the few who had downloaded it had attempted to pick up where I left off without success. The permissions on it, as it was a WIP, was pretty strict and still stands, last I checked.

There's a mod recently for FO4 that has one part of it doing what my FO3 mod did. If it'd been only that one part that would've been a problem.

 

Anyway, some of my really old stuff, especially incomplete, I relax permissions and let others pick up where I left off. Not much point hoarding it if someone else can improve upon it :)

Edited June 11, 2017 by star-mystyk