Can Paid and Free Mods Coexist?

[M48A5]

Free mods will co-exist with paid mods as long as the tools to create the mods are distributed freely.

 

However, I see, in the future, that the tools to create the mods will only be available to the members of the creation club, with the mods only allowed to be uploaded to the club. This would eventually end free modding.

 

I know that pirated versions of the creation kits will be available somewhere, but where would the mod authors be able to safely upload the mods and the mod users safely download the mods?

[needsfoodbadly]

Free mods will co-exist with paid mods as long as the tools to create the mods are distributed freely.

 

However, I see, in the future, that the tools to create the mods will only be available to the members of the creation club, with the mods only allowed to be uploaded to the club. This would eventually end free modding.

 

I know that pirated versions of the creation kits will be available somewhere, but where would the mod authors be able to safely upload the mods and the mod users safely download the mods?

 

And you're basing this on what? BGS has extensively supported the modding community. Along with Bethesda's announcement of CC they also stated they would continue to support the free modding community and as I already pointed out they host over 11,000 free mods on their own website.

 

If you don't like the concept of CC, there's nothing wrong with that but you're just making up wild rumors and speculation which fly in the face of everything Bethesda and BGS has done in the past and using that as a basis for your opposition to it.

[M48A5]

 

Free mods will co-exist with paid mods as long as the tools to create the mods are distributed freely.

 

However, I see, in the future, that the tools to create the mods will only be available to the members of the creation club, with the mods only allowed to be uploaded to the club. This would eventually end free modding.

 

I know that pirated versions of the creation kits will be available somewhere, but where would the mod authors be able to safely upload the mods and the mod users safely download the mods?

 

And you're basing this on what? BGS has extensively supported the modding community. Along with Bethesda's announcement of CC they also stated they would continue to support the free modding community and as I already pointed out they host over 11,000 free mods on their own website.

 

If you don't like the concept of CC, there's nothing wrong with that but you're just making up wild rumors and speculation which fly in the face of everything Bethesda and BGS has done in the past and using that as a basis for your opposition to it.

 

 

BGS has supported the modding community in the past. But, they tried paid modding before and it was poorly planned and failed.

 

BGS can say whatever they want about continued support of free mods. I just put forward a theory based on the past practices of any corporation that can control the market and control the product. Want an example? How about Epipen.

 

Absolutely necessary for anyone with life threatening allergies. The corporation the purchased Epipen immediately raised the price 600%. Just because they controlled the market.

 

I never said I had anything against the concept of Creation Club. I did not make up a wild rumor. Again, I just put forward a theory.

 

I never said I was opposed to anything. I don't know where you came to that conclusion. I merely stated a theory based on what would be a sound business practice.

 

Control the product and control the market. Then milk it for every cent you can. Apple is a good example.

[needsfoodbadly]

 

 

Free mods will co-exist with paid mods as long as the tools to create the mods are distributed freely.

 

However, I see, in the future, that the tools to create the mods will only be available to the members of the creation club, with the mods only allowed to be uploaded to the club. This would eventually end free modding.

 

I know that pirated versions of the creation kits will be available somewhere, but where would the mod authors be able to safely upload the mods and the mod users safely download the mods?

 

And you're basing this on what? BGS has extensively supported the modding community. Along with Bethesda's announcement of CC they also stated they would continue to support the free modding community and as I already pointed out they host over 11,000 free mods on their own website.

 

If you don't like the concept of CC, there's nothing wrong with that but you're just making up wild rumors and speculation which fly in the face of everything Bethesda and BGS has done in the past and using that as a basis for your opposition to it.

 

 

BGS has supported the modding community in the past. But, they tried paid modding before and it was poorly planned and failed.

 

BGS can say whatever they want about continued support of free mods. I just put forward a theory based on the past practices of any corporation that can control the market and control the product. Want an example? How about Epipen.

 

Absolutely necessary for anyone with life threatening allergies. The corporation the purchased Epipen immediately raised the price 600%. Just because they controlled the market.

 

I never said I had anything against the concept of Creation Club. I did not make up a wild rumor. Again, I just put forward a theory.

 

I never said I was opposed to anything. I don't know where you came to that conclusion. I merely stated a theory based on what would be a sound business practice.

 

Control the product and control the market. Then milk it for every cent you can. Apple is a good example.

 

 

Okay, they tried paid mods in the past. It was a fiasco. Did they shut down free mods to control the market? Did it destroy the PC modding community? No and no.

 

Okay...not a "wild rumor" then...a wild theory. Whatever you call it, it's still contrary to Bethesda's long history of supporting and enabling the modding community. I didn't say you were personally opposed to it. I said there's nothing wrong if you are, generally speaking you, him, her, whoever...but if you are against it, then you should be against it based on facts, not on theories, rumors, speculation and crazy what-if scenarios that you made up.

 

You claim that removing modding support for future Bethesda games would be a "sound business practice." But you're completely ignoring the fact that this would cause a major backlash against Bethesda. Not only that, but Bethesda has clearly stated that Creation Club isn't going to be an all-inclusive club for every kid that slaps a texture on something, which means that content from the CC will be limited and not as vast as what is freely available.

 

Now, I have heard countless other people make the argument that Bethesda "allows" people to mod their games because it sells more games and that modders are doing their work for them. These people ignore the fact Bethesda makes tools available to modders. Either way, their argument boils down to the modding community being value added that spurs more game sales.

 

And people don't just buy Bethesda games because there are mods for them...they also buy them...because they enjoy modding them.

 

So given that line of reasoning, shutting down the entire modding community and making it exclusive only to a select number of people would not make business sense.

 

Now, judging from your "theory" I'm guessing you wouldn't be cool if that happened. It might even affect your decision to make a future purchase. I think if you're really being honest with yourself, you know that would be a terrible business decision, not a "sound" one.

[HeyYou]

If Beth does away with free mods, they also kill off their 'labor pool' for CC. Where is the sense in that?

[DubbyXI]

Paid and Free Modding coexisting Is like siding with the Institute and letting people of commonwealth and synths coexist. Won't end well

[montky]

@fkemman11

another great thread as ever,

and there has been a lot of discussion about this elsewhere.

 

short version;

it's laissez-faire and neo-georgism in action!

 

there seem to be a few camps of reflection;

anti-centralized controlled and regulated mods folks think

we're seeing rightshoring and outsourcing spun as a good thing,

see "Hobby Lobby precedent" - this is just another step in that direction on one level...

we're seeing a lot of frameworks move toward that 'reified corporate scrip' rabbithole

(what are anti-Trucking Scrip acts in many locales?)

it could be the end of freedom in games, and how we interact with games, as we know it.

 

conversely, to pro- fiscal incentives in games and mods,

it's a way to get experience in collaborations etc,

and legitimate fiscal incentives to interact with an IP you love is awesome too,

so, we're seeing whole new approaches to continuity and IP.

contrast with Axanar and Trek IP etc. Other IPs are very stringent and prohibitively expensive or creative-controlling,

for most regular folks to even remotely dream of,

and even when you try and jump all the hoops... when you outshine the actual continuity,

you get hauled off or disavowed as "non-canon"...

 

it's like remixes, sampling and collabs in art or music, but now games are catching up and finding a win-win.

now, folks can make resources, and riff,

and embrace the n^x! worth of combinatorial awesome!

 

Beth and zenimax are revolutionary,

and are finding a win-win much like 2ndlife, renderosity and devart or amazon etc,

they're finding a way to make that win-win possible,

and extending the revenue lifetime of their IPs by encouraging folks creativity with the canon,

and new ways to make games and mods come alive.

 

buy that game they made once 20 years ago,

and buy these mods for that game.

it makes the revenue earning potential of older titles increase,

without needing to pay necessarily royalties to the people who actually made the game...

no pensions, no wages... just, positive revenue.

(well, that depends on the terms and conditions of the game maker etc...)

this positive revenue flow, can fund new experiments,

such as in AGI, processor development, outreach programs

and, robotics/cybernetics.

the positive flow will help diversification,

which ensures the survival of a games studio we all dearly love.

 

Bethesda and Zenimax have a very Heinlein approach to futures,

and seeing them futures-proof their ideas is awesome.

I hope they will continue their transition, and that zenimax or beth will acquire the Boston Dynamics at some point.

I'd narrowly prefer that, than if Bohemia Interactive or Guerrlila were to acquire the remnants of Boston Dynamics...

that's when we'll see some really awesome stuff,

given the support that Beth and Zenimax have given to "benevolent AGI" and memristor devs.

 

 

 

I think there'll always be a 'cottage industry' niche to modding and games.

there'll always be indie gamers and cottage industry out there.

they make the artwork because they can.

 

Free stuff forms as a voluntary collab and jam,

usually from folks that want to work on that project because of the challenge or prestige to get there first.

It's a hobby, and they're able to make that free stuff because real-world is conducive to it.

It gives them a surplus of time and support in fiscal to enable that.

 

its just like commissioning an artist, or a musician, or a wedding videographer, or commercial maker.

you'll commission videogame teams to make whatever,

and the lowest tender offer with the ability to back up the value proposition, will tend to win out.

 

-----

The only way to guarantee an approach to mods and gamers,

is for people to make their own original IP and products outright.

when you're the owner and boss, you can discern who may do what when and how to a much greater extent,

than can a user of a framework. that comes with risk profiles etc...

that's what folks like 8bitguy and thisweekintech are suggesting -

 

if we have to entirely make whole new ways to bypass stupid "pay per boot and pay per runtime, pay per use pay per view"

shtuff a few idiots think is a good idea... that whole "pay to play" "less is more" put stuff behind umpteen pay barriers and patreon donor walls...

then gamers will do that.

 

If we have to make a whole new games industry,

due to suppression of free expression in the 'establishment',

then, indie gamers will make that happen.

it's about telling stories that they want to tell.

it's the free-to-air, or "PBS" version, as compared to "pay-to-view", to use a dinosaur media analogy.

 

----

 

People might have a surplus of fiscal, but a lack in time or in knowledge,

to make a mod.

Just like people could commission an artist, or a sculptor, a writer or a painter,

a musician, a filmographer... to make things once-off for them...

you find a team that'll make the outcome you envisage, happen.

 

so, with legitimate fiscal incentives,

people with that surplus of capital, can commission the finest craftspeople we can afford,

to have that concept realized and materialized.

be that single wealthy altruistic philanthropists benefactors, so called "guardian angels" or "early backers"

or be it, consortium crowdfunding something they all like for a buck a month...

it's about meeting demand with supply.

 

there is a strong demand for mods, and in each framework, a limited supply of who can make that happen.

supply is increasing though, as more people learn STEM and acquire the skills.

 

think about folks like FemFreq too,

who criticized the lack of some demographics in games...

how much more laissezfaire can it get now,

if its only limited by the creativity of the individual.

we're going to see people realize that, STEM can be rewarding,

and this supplement to their early careers via hands-on learning that they get fiscal reward with,

that is going to be great ultimately for innovation and learning.

 

mandatory coding in many nationstates, means coders will be much more abundant;

see "the back of envelope 'golden ratio' of productive coders to requesters.

10: 1 for simple mods,

100 : 1 for complex,

<1000: 1 for overhauls and game making.

just like ThisWeekInTech has been prattling about every year around august in that months special focus hehe.

 

we will see ubiquity mean ratios closer to

5:1,

38:1

and 500:1 respectively.

this will have direct impacts on turnaround time, and the quality of mods we see form.

 

we're going to see new live-enabled stuff from Beth and Zenimax,

and we're going to see real-time mods and real-time acting and voiceover,

stuff like "AGI Games Master" for their roleplaying games,

and it's going to be pretty awesome.

they're pushing new frontiers in what can be accomplished.

 

A lot of folks may be able to find a fiscal stream from that in some form.

it will be an iron in the fire, in this gig economy we find ourselves in.

viewing it as a 9 to 5 or reliable source of income or the sole-stream of income,

that is completely unrealistic.

 

However, economics and systems indicate, to neo-georgists and pragmatists,

it will quickly move to be mostly teams that collab well,

who will make the best RoI.

they'll cluster in time, and it will lead to individuals cottage modders being less competitive than

arthouses and teams of specialists...

 

 

 

 

So, that's my "brief" 'helicopter futures' view of things,

and I think it will be a positive thing not only now, but in the long run.

 

we've already seen the team that made FO4's

"Todd's-ville" mod become incentivized, so I don't know what more shows good faith,

than Todd Howard likeness companions in game, and todd howard clones that you can blast,

being given a seal of approval like that.

 

Don't like FO4 or beth? really stick it to them and show them a thing or two

buy FO4 and download the Todd Howard toddsville mod, and blast to your heart's content hehe.

They've got a good sense of humor, that's for sure!

It's 4th wall breaking vonnegut style.

 

I mean, it's even moddable, with the perks other companions can enjoy in FO4.

that is next-level humor.

[Airaniiel]

Hmm... Paid mods. Everyone's getting so riled up over the Creation Club. It hasn't even come out yet and everyone is crucifying Beth for it. They could be creating a marketplace for professional, DLC-like content created by talented modders. Or, this could be a repeat of what happened a couple of years ago with the Steam Workshop mods (that was insane). I don't think that the Creation Club will be Steam Workshop Fiasco Part 2; I think that it will be something completely different, and I also think that people need to stop making crazy, radical assumptions about something that hasn't even been implemented yet. The Creation Club could be a good thing.

[Dywen]

As someone said before, my biggest fear is a possible restriction of modding tools, eg. only a creators kit "light" version for free modders, or offering such tools only for modders working on official mods. If this happens, Bethesda would make use of the term "Mod" to sell DLCs made by freelancers... But yet this is just a "worst case scenario" for Skyrim or future Bethesda games.

 

What acctually bothers me is the question of the legal rights, respectively the usage of assets created by other modders and the coexistens of free and paid mods for similar things. For example take a look at all the bigger texture mods, like CBBE, UNP, etc. which use several assets from other mods, same goes for city or dungeon overhauls an much more. Making such mods would become difficult, if specific assets are cc-exclusive. Creating similar free assets/mods could be taken as a copyright issue. Same goes for retextures, eg. new 4k bork for trees, because few people would buy such a thing from the cc-store, if someone has created his/her own free version of 4k bork textures for trees. I really, really hope, that bethesda handels these topics with care and fair, else the modding community will have a hard time comming.

*non-native english speaker ;-) *

[Airaniiel]

As someone said before, my biggest fear is a possible restriction of modding tools, eg. only a creators kit "light" version for free modders, or offering such tools only for modders working on official mods. If this happens, Bethesda would make use of the term "Mod" to sell DLCs made by freelancers... But yet this is just a "worst case scenario" for Skyrim or future Bethesda games.

Â

What acctually bothers me is the question of the legal rights, respectively the usage of assets created by other modders and the coexistens of free and paid mods for similar things. For example take a look at all the bigger texture mods, like CBBE, UNP, etc. which use several assets from other mods, same goes for city or dungeon overhauls an much more. Making such mods would become difficult, if specific assets are cc-exclusive. Creating similar free assets/mods could be taken as a copyright issue. Same goes for retextures, eg. new 4k bork for trees, because few people would buy such a thing from the cc-store, if someone has created his/her own free version of 4k bork textures for trees. I really, really hope, that bethesda handels these topics with care and fair, else the modding community will have a hard time comming.

*non-native english speaker ;-) *

The usage of assets thing could be a problem; it's a good thing that only new mods can be sold in the CC, otherwise we'd have to worry about old mods/add-ons being sold in the CC (SKSE *cough*)