A question about the Construction Set and the EULA

[Arthmoor]

In general, yes. Your concepts, ideas, artwork, and original creations would be yours to do with as you see fit. Put them in an Oblivion mod, and they theoretically also become Bethesda's to do with as they see fit while they remain in that mod.

 

If push came to shove though, I doubt that provision of the EULA would stand up in court. It would be more or less like Microsoft saying they own all rights to the elaborate novel you wrote one year just because you used Word to create it. Similarly, just because you used the CS to generate your idea does not mean Bethesda owns *ALL* of the rights to it. The CS is a tool. Copyright to the story ( assuming it's original ) belongs to the author unless transferred in writing to another party - or generated as a work for hire.

 

You could be in a grey area as far as game mechanics are concerned though. Also, the mere idea of "this is how it would work" can't be protected by copyright. That usually has to be patented and that's an entirely different issue.

 

In the end, it's best to consult with an attorney who specialized in IP law if you're really that worried about it. Taking advice from a bunch of forum goers with no legal training is rather foolish :)

[buddah]

For the most accurate response, I would recommend posting this on the official forums.

 

This is my understanding, anything created in the cs belongs to Bethesda.

 

Key word is created:

 

Meshes and Textures are usually created in external programs, they are the intellectual property of the creator.

 

Scripting done with an external application is also the intellectual property of the creator.

 

The esp file that is used to put it in game and is created in the CS is Bethesda's property. However the contents of the esp, may contain the intellectual property of the author which is created in another external application and is not the property of Bethesda.

 

Further if you created your own application that did the same thing as the cs and created the esp in that application, Bethesda would not have any claim to the mod.

 

This is my understanding of the EULA, not an official or legal statement.....just my understanding.

 

Buddah

[Kythrius]

In general, yes. Your concepts, ideas, artwork, and original creations would be yours to do with as you see fit. Put them in an Oblivion mod, and they theoretically also become Bethesda's to do with as they see fit while they remain in that mod.

 

You could be in a grey area as far as game mechanics are concerned though. Also, the mere idea of "this is how it would work" can't be protected by copyright. That usually has to be patented and that's an entirely different issue.

 

If I wanted to transfer my ideas, I would definitely be able to adapt them for different game mechanics.

[nosisab]

In general, yes. Your concepts, ideas, artwork, and original creations would be yours to do with as you see fit. Put them in an Oblivion mod, and they theoretically also become Bethesda's to do with as they see fit while they remain in that mod.

 

You could be in a grey area as far as game mechanics are concerned though. Also, the mere idea of "this is how it would work" can't be protected by copyright. That usually has to be patented and that's an entirely different issue.

 

If I wanted to transfer my ideas, I would definitely be able to adapt them for different game mechanics.

Sometime ago a judge negated Bill Gates Copyrighting the name Windows, and so it is only a trademark, and argued if this were done soon the world would be paying royalties for using Money.

 

As I'm understanding the issue, some things you are calling your ideas are so generic as trying to patent photographing White House from 30° angle. If I'm correct at supposing you are talking about the ideas within your mod (since you did mention it several times including the hypothesis of withdrawing it) I must say there are good ideas there, but must say too most of then aren't even original and a big deal of then were someway or another actually implemented, ranging from spells, enchanting... to abilities itself.

 

But not even this is the real point. Your concerns shouldn't be the hypothesis someone grabbing ideas you haven't 'de facto' under the legal aspect. If you see they are worth and must be 'your ideas' so the way to go is you copyrighting then first.

[Vagrant0]

If I wanted to transfer my ideas, I would definitely be able to adapt them for different game mechanics.

Dude, seriously, Bethsoft isnt going to steal your ideas, no matter how great you think they might be. Look at all the other mods out there, some with equally great, or better ideas. They aren't getting their work stolen, heck Bethsoft really doesn't seem to care less about what the modding community does unless someone is reported as stealing things which Bethsoft owns, and hasn't allowed for use in Oblivion (Morrowblivion). Your mod ideas, however great as you think they may be, may not even fit within what Bethsoft has planned for the series, and may go against aspects of existing lore or game mechanics. They aren't some 2 bit game maker who has to steal from people in order to make a decent product. They are quite capable of paying people to sit down and write this stuff out on their own.

 

As I had said, that little bit in the EULA is there more to protect and restrict usage of the CS than it is to give them rights to screw over modders. If you're still concerned about it, you could probably just detail your idea somewhere other than in the CS, blog or forum post for example, and then do it in the CS. Since your idea was published as yours before it ever made it into the CS, they won't have the same claim to it. This is because one form of publication preceeded the other, so essentially whatever was done in the CS was based on those published ideas.

 

But really though, get over yourself. There are dozens of very skilled modders who have added to the game, fixed its shortcommings, and accomplished things that were presumed as impossible. You talk about making this great mod while they have already done it, and havn't had any issues. If you can forgive the analogy (one I tried making before, but you seemed to miss), you're like a musician who refuses to play because he's afraid that someone will steal his songs. But unless he makes those songs, he isn't exactly a musician.

 

More to the point, there really isn't a whole heck of alot which can be done with the spell, ability, enchanting system that is particularly groundbreaking. And most of what could be, has already been done in one form or another. So, no offence, your ideas probably aren't worth stealing, even if you were giving them away.

[stephanie]

Please don't flame me, but I remember a few really good mods in Morrowind that were copied by Beth - A horse riding mod, movable furniture, and being able to sit in a chair. .. all of these concepts were developed further and included in Oblivion.

 

I'm sure I can be proven wrong, but it looks to me as if Beth has already raided the modding community for ideas ..

 

:)

*ducks under a table .. just in case*

[nosisab]

Please don't flame me, but I remember a few really good mods in Morrowind that were copied by Beth - A horse riding mod, movable furniture, and being able to sit in a chair. .. all of these concepts were developed further and included in Oblivion.

 

I'm sure I can be proven wrong, but it looks to me as if Beth has already raided the modding community for ideas ..

 

:)

*ducks under a table .. just in case*

But this is the point. What is so strange at horse riding, movable furniture or even sit in the chair, Stephanie?

Morrowind doesn't had it? ok, it is a fact, but not because they are things anyone didn't before. They were not needed in the original game. Improved that game? yes, for sure. Saw Beth people liked it? no doubts. Stole Beth someone idea? well... I cant think as to answer with yes here.

Just to clarify: could any other game softhouse issue or blame Beth for doing such things if their games had it too?

 

Complementing: For sure the modders that did those things, among others equally fantastic, for the games earned respect, and did what they did knowing this were the unique promise. Was so and is this way now too. We mod for we like it, we all knows we are doing this without any promise of material gain. Trying not entering here at material gain possibilities and/or probabilities issues.

 

Yet more, allowing their games modded is a great way for a company to know things a gamer would like in their games. Someway it's a symbiosis.

[stephanie]

"Yet more, allowing their games modded is a great way for a company to know things a gamer would like in their games. Someway it's a symbiosis."

 

I remember at the time, there was a lot of talk about all this in several forums, very similar to the posts here. Some of the people who were making 'mods' wanted to be able to copyright and sell them, but the eula prevented it then just as it prevents it now.

 

I'm sure the folks at Bethsoft (Todd, are you reading this?) wander around all of the fansites and pick up a lot of good ideas from the modding community. The "horse-riding" mod is definitely one of those. If I were ceo (or a tekkie) at a game manufacturer, I would be doing the same thing to get some ideas on what to put into my next game.

 

The 'concept' of riding a horse is not new, but when it first appeared in Morrowind as a 'Mod', it was earthshaking! It was also very crude and didn't always work the way it was supposed to. I believe Bethsoft took the idea of riding horseback (from where ever) and turned it into a real, working feature in Oblivion. (Thanks, Todd)

 

No matter if the original Modder thought of it first. It's still Bethsoft's game and they can do what they want with it.

 

In a very real way, the entire modding community is helping Bethsoft design and build better games. I know .. "we don't get paid" .. So? If you want to be paid for doing this type of work, go get hired at a game software house. Or better yet, start your own. Then we in the modding community can mod for your game (if you allow it), and help make your game better. (we'll probably complain about you, too)

 

*grins*

:)

[nosisab]

One can aways try to sell an idea, and you can believe, is the way it works :)

 

One can approach a producer and says. I have an Idea to a movie (or a game, or whatever) that involves... think of all the teen movies and you'll see there is not enough stupidity to prevent an idea to work, is even a paradox the most brights at said 'attribute' seems to sell better, hehe.

 

In the modders case, no softhouse will buy (or maybe will actually) one idea that says giving players and NPCs ability of sitting chairs. Although the modder skill itself can impression then hard enough to contract him. And this is not limited to the softhouse that had their game modded, indeed don't need to be even a game softhouse.

[Vagrant0]

But let's take a step back here and think about what the OP is concerned about. The question is not about some fantastic system, like walking on walls, cutting off people's heads, locational damage (examples chosen on purpose), he's talking about a sort of spell mod. If there was anything particularly groundbreaking and possible on that front, Midas, or one of the other modders has already done it. The spell system as it is, is so limiting that even with the inclusion of scripting, you would need to include much more (models, shaders) to really make anything "new". And again, who is to say that what is made is something that fits within the game.

 

If you made a mod which would let the player fly around in a spaceship, shooting lazers at bandits and townsfolk, as groundbreaking as it might be, Bethsoft probably won't give it much notice beyond looking how you made use of the mount system, tcl, and mounted spellcasting mod. And even if they did decide to include something similar, it wouldn't be you they were ripping off, but the one who made the spellcasting mod (and OBSE for that matter).

 

The systems used for riding and sitting are very similar. Both work by using idle animations and locking the position of an NPC relative to an object. The difference between them is that horses inherit movement from the rider, while a chair remains stationary. Both systems would have probably been developed even if they weren't attempted in Morrowind, simply because many people didn't like how 98% of all NPCs in Morrowind were just standing around (with the remaining ones just walking a simple route). Adding in sitting animations and packages made things quite a bit more interesting. Horses, we could have probably been better off without. Although the mods mentioned are seen by some as groundbreaking, they probably won't be included in the next installment because they work based on very complex scripting and OBSE. If they are, it would be because someone at Bethsoft spent the time making a change to the engine which allowed for one of those aspects, at which point, they earned the right to use it.

 

The reality is that most of the company backed modding (the sims, Nwn, Tes) communities exist for the purposes of giving those companies ideas to improve their product. They did afterall provide tools and resources to the community, it's only right that they get something in return. Morrowind and Oblivion modding wouldn't exist in the form that it does currently without such tools (see Fable Modding). Without a working CS, we'd be reliant on tools made by skilled people like Timeslip, and such tools might not allow for anything more complicated than adding in new items, or changing existing information. Even if some functionallity were still there, modding as a whole would be alot more complicated, and the community wouldn't be anything like it is now.

 

And even in cases where the company doesn't release tools, and modding still happens, they still get inspired by what the modding communities create, and use that to improve their own product. There are even companies who look at what how their competors get modded, and take those ideas to improve their product. The reality is that anything presented to the public is generally open to be discected and incorporated however the viewer wishes as long as it isn't too close to the original. Open your history book and look at how many doom clones there were in the late 90's, and how many WoW clones there are around now.

 

If you don't want your ideas being used by others, live in a bubble, and never speak to anyone. If you do speak, and what was said gets repeated, atleast be happy that what you had to say was worth repeating.

 

And if you've ever song the Birthday song, you owe royalties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You

 

That doesn't keep people from singing it. They just might have to change some of the words if it is being presented to a public audience.