Election Year Debate

[HeyYou]

@Arthmoor

 

Agreed. Nothing more on race. Our views might differ on this, but nothing more needs to be said.

 

Economic issues are different though. I'm not arguing for socialism, quite the opposite, in fact. Rather, I am arguing for capitalism that works. Right now the US has caught a severe case of crony capitalism, a case that both the Democrats and the Republicans have helped contribute to. Our markets have been distorted by political intrigue and rent-seeking by companies and individuals, companies and individuals that use their wealth and influence to horn-in on government and muscle-out their competition.

 

Our tax code is one such example, so full of special-interest loopholes giving inbuilt advantages to large firms with lots of in-house tax lawyers and accountants. Not to mention the fact that most of those tax breaks and subsidies are carved out at the behest of industry lobbyists and do not reflect in any way, shape or form the realistic demands of the market (*cough* ethanol *cough*) for their products or services. Our tax code (all 28,000 pages of it...) is a blatant and shameful manifestation of market-distorting crony-capitalism run absolutely amok.

 

Both parties are guilty of this, too. The rural red states love them some farm subsidies, pumping tens of billions of dollars in taxpayer assistance "profits" into our agricultural sector each year, propping up dubious boondoggles such as the aforementioned ethanol industry (Iowa corn lobby) as well as numerous biofuel and green energy schemes. Said assistance also allows American farms to "compete" successfully around the world, somehow managing to undercut foreign farmers even when said farmers are growing solely for the consumption of their home markets. That would be impossible were it not for the incredible taxpayer largesse relished upon the American agricultural industry and its powerful farm lobby, especially in the Midwestern and Southern states.

 

Then you have corporate welfare, aka rent-seeking. See the above-mentioned example of the Farm Bill and add to it most of the defense industry, aerospace industry, and current beneficiaries of our so-called "energy policy." The defense industry more or less speaks for itself. It has a captive market, generous taxpayer subsidies, and an entire political party essentially dedicated to its preservation and economic advancement, ensuring that its budget remains all but sacrosanct--through economic boom and bust. There isn't any inherent market or demand for its products either. In fact, its very existence seems more at home in the command-economy of the old USSR than it does in the supposedly "capitalist" United States of America. Sure, American defense companies make a tidy profit selling to our allies abroad, but that is only because their R&D budgets are subsidized by a constant stream of contracts demanded by our political parties and government.

 

Similar things might be said about the oil industry as it receives an average taxpayer rent of four billion dollars per-year, at the same time as it is the single most profitable industry of any yet existing on this Earth. Why are American taxpayers paying oil companies to do things that they would be doing anyway, with capital that they are already making year-after-year in record-breaking profits? Of course, there are also the Solyndras of the world as well. But really, isn't the more salient question this: "Why are we as taxpayers underwriting any private business ventures at all?" Isn't it up to the market to pick the winners and losers of our economy?

 

Which brings me to my final point, for now. Which is the rising inequality in the United States versus how these people made their money. Most Americans admire wealth and they admire success. I know that I do. I wish that we had more entrepreneurs of the caliber of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Gordon Moore. These people are the great producers and visionaries of our era, those that had the courage and conviction necessary to reach out and bring the future to we the people, not unlike Prometheus as he stole fire from Zeus and bestowed it upon the shivering Greeks. They're the folks that Ayn Rand would extol in her works, the heirs to the mantle of John Galt. They are the motors that propel the country (and mankind) forward, the producers who improve the lives of all.

 

Yet... for every Steve Jobs or John Galt in our economy, there is also a Bernie Madoff as well as a Kenneth Lay, for every Mark Zuckerberg there is a Raj Rajaratnam. Lurking elsewhere in Washington's Stygian moral abyss, skulk the facilitators of much of this corruption, the lobbyists like Jack Abramoff and Steve Richetti. And these are only the ones that catch the public's fickle eye. Delving deep--and into less explicitly illegal waters--there are the Goldman Sachs and the Banks of America, the ultimate rent-seekers bestriding the American coasts like the Colossus at Rhodes, secure in their station of being "Too-Big-to-Fail" and able to wager their incomprehensible fortunes on risky bets as if a drunk in the gilded halls of Monaco's Casino Royale. These guys, the corner office bankers at rent-seeking Wall Street firms, these individuals who so sabotaged our economy in 2008 yet paid absolutely no price in return, these are the guys that many Americans have a serious, serious problem with. Their entire industry (finance) is a medieval leach upon a dying patient, sucking out the last of his precious blood, while the stammering shamans speak of drawing out the humours.

 

Which is a long-winded and overly dramatic way of saying that our economic and social policies favor the entrenched rich at the same time as they more or less discriminate against everybody who actually has to get up and go to work for a living. Why is my income taxed at 25% while Mitt Romney (who has been on essentially a permanent campaign vacation for the last five years...) pays a rate of 12.5%? How is that okay? How does he have the gall to get up in front of an audience and say that he is a self-made man, when his father was the Governor of Michigan and he inherited both his father's millions as well as his entire Rolodex? That is precisely the definition of starting on third base and thinking you've hit a triple. It is fine to have rich people in our society, but does a CEO really need to make an average of 350 times what the average worker makes? Is his labor as a CEO really that valuable or has he just used his position of authority within the company to jack up his compensation whilst "cutting costs" everywhere else?

 

That is probably an apt metaphor for our entire country right now. I could literally go on indefinitely about this, speaking of Rawls and social contracts, but I suppose I've got to stop somewhere.

 

In any case, I would challenge you to come up with charts or data of your own proving some of your points. I promise you that I am not making mine on my computer, they are all using official government data. If you can find a chart that correlates positive social outcomes with extreme income stratification, I would gladly consider myself edified. As it is now, I am trying to use real-world examples, yet you essentially call them liberal lies and dismiss them out of hand.

 

Finally, we're not headed for a new Gilded Age, we're in one. Look at the graph.

 

Wow.... Just...... Wow.

 

Thank you for putting this so well. I am thinkin' that you and I are on the exact same page.

[grannywils]

HY, you took the words right out of my mouth. This Sukeban has me just mesmerized. :turned: How can he get into my head and express my exact thoughts so, so much more eruditely. Could it be that he is a tad more articulate than I???? :wink: I just wish he had mentioned the pharmaceutical companies, but he certainly got his point across quite well, didn't he....:thumbsup:

[SubjectProphet]

Have to admit I don't see how you guys can put down Obama or compare him to Bush....

 

1) Bush never responded with aid when disasters hit his citizens and so those poor sods had to cope for months sorting out their disaster hit homes.

 

- Obama has always responded fast with aid when disaster hits

 

- my opinion : If I lived in the lands of tornado's or hurricanes I sure as anything would be wanting Obama as pressy knowing that if I required aid I would get it promptly.

 

2) Bush bought his presidency

- Obama being a man of colour had to hard slog it and do it honestly facing adversity because he is a man of colour.

 

my opinion: He has more honor than Bush ever did.

 

Honestly I see Obama as a guy that is desparately doing all he can to try to make America a better place for all and his heathcare plans before than were watered down by the republicans would have been rather beneficial, it's like it would have had the homeless off the streets, crime would have gone down as a result of that and well having the homeless in jail where they get fed, bathed and nice roof over there heads and medical care is a lot better than what they have on the streets, so I see it as being a good thing. However the watered down version that the republicans would agree too is a load of codswollap.

 

And another thing he was battling the the republicans with the budget and doing his hardest to make them agree to reduce the costs of war and such and they were refusing to cooperate and well wouldn't agree and America near defaulted on the payment because of the stupidity of the republicans and well he agrees to help them with their stuff but when it comes down to them helping him with his agenda's it's like pulling teeth and hard for him.

 

I can't help but think it's because the republicans just are difficult for the sake of being difficult.

 

Seems to me people forget the good things Obama has tried to do for his average citizen.

 

People can moan all they want about *their* taxs being spent wastefully on humanaterium stuff he does to try to help but I bet on the same token I wonder if they would moan if they were hit with a disaster and needed help. Would they be happy with Bush type of pressy, or would they be glad for a pressy like Obama who doesn't muck around and sends help in a timely manner.

 

Honestly, peoples memorys are short and the whole dog eat dog mentality to not help ones fellow citizen is apalling and really People are more important than money.

 

Obama has put the US in more debt then any other president. Look at Obamacare, seriously, fine us for not being able to afford healthcare in the first place? How does THAT make any sense?

 

He's raised our spending limit so high that we could spend every cent we have and STILL not have reached our limit. Obama has lied, and that's all he will do is lie. I certainly won't be voting for him. He's the main reason why our country has died over these past 3 and a half years.

 

Obama also used DEAD people as names for those who were illegal and not able to vote here. People pointed GUNS at heads of people who didn't vote for Obama, and guess what Obama did about that? NOTHING.

 

I haven't seen Obama do anything but spend money and pass bills that ruin lives.

[grannywils]

SubjectProphet, following is a quote from your above post:

"Obama also used DEAD people as names for those who were illegal and not able to vote here. People pointed GUNS at heads of people who didn't vote for Obama, and guess what Obama did about that? NOTHING."

I wonder if you would be willing to provide me with specific proof of that allegation, as it really annoys me. I take issue with just about everything else that you said, and would refer you to Sukeban's excellent post #29 if you want some "real" facts. However, I would put you to the task of providing me with the case by case examples of when Mr. Obama used dead people as names for those who were illegal and not able to vote here.

 

Thanks.

[SubjectProphet]

SubjectProphet, following is a quote from your above post:

"Obama also used DEAD people as names for those who were illegal and not able to vote here. People pointed GUNS at heads of people who didn't vote for Obama, and guess what Obama did about that? NOTHING."

I wonder if you would be willing to provide me with specific proof of that allegation, as it really annoys me. I take issue with just about everything else that you said, and would refer you to Sukeban's excellent post #29 if you want some "real" facts. However, I would put you to the task of providing me with the case by case examples of when Mr. Obama used dead people as names for those who were illegal and not able to vote here.

 

Thanks.

 

The articles are long gone, it's been a few years. Tracking these dead names though, records do show that the previous votes were in 2008, when most died in the 1900's, so did they come back from the dead? No.

 

Obama isn't a good president, he's not done one good thing for this country. I want him OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, and a new president in.

[dunmermaiden]

Have to admit I don't see how you guys can put down Obama or compare him to Bush....

 

1) Bush never responded with aid when disasters hit his citizens and so those poor sods had to cope for months sorting out their disaster hit homes.

 

- Obama has always responded fast with aid when disaster hits

 

- my opinion : If I lived in the lands of tornado's or hurricanes I sure as anything would be wanting Obama as pressy knowing that if I required aid I would get it promptly.

 

2) Bush bought his presidency

- Obama being a man of colour had to hard slog it and do it honestly facing adversity because he is a man of colour.

 

my opinion: He has more honor than Bush ever did.

 

Honestly I see Obama as a guy that is desparately doing all he can to try to make America a better place for all and his heathcare plans before than were watered down by the republicans would have been rather beneficial, it's like it would have had the homeless off the streets, crime would have gone down as a result of that and well having the homeless in jail where they get fed, bathed and nice roof over there heads and medical care is a lot better than what they have on the streets, so I see it as being a good thing. However the watered down version that the republicans would agree too is a load of codswollap.

 

And another thing he was battling the the republicans with the budget and doing his hardest to make them agree to reduce the costs of war and such and they were refusing to cooperate and well wouldn't agree and America near defaulted on the payment because of the stupidity of the republicans and well he agrees to help them with their stuff but when it comes down to them helping him with his agenda's it's like pulling teeth and hard for him.

 

I can't help but think it's because the republicans just are difficult for the sake of being difficult.

 

Seems to me people forget the good things Obama has tried to do for his average citizen.

 

People can moan all they want about *their* taxs being spent wastefully on humanaterium stuff he does to try to help but I bet on the same token I wonder if they would moan if they were hit with a disaster and needed help. Would they be happy with Bush type of pressy, or would they be glad for a pressy like Obama who doesn't muck around and sends help in a timely manner.

 

Honestly, peoples memorys are short and the whole dog eat dog mentality to not help ones fellow citizen is apalling and really People are more important than money.

 

Obama has put the US in more debt then any other president. Look at Obamacare, seriously, fine us for not being able to afford healthcare in the first place? How does THAT make any sense?

 

He's raised our spending limit so high that we could spend every cent we have and STILL not have reached our limit. Obama has lied, and that's all he will do is lie. I certainly won't be voting for him. He's the main reason why our country has died over these past 3 and a half years.

 

Obama also used DEAD people as names for those who were illegal and not able to vote here. People pointed GUNS at heads of people who didn't vote for Obama, and guess what Obama did about that? NOTHING.

 

I haven't seen Obama do anything but spend money and pass bills that ruin lives.

 

I doubt very much that he has made more debt, he's trying to end the wars Bush started without compremising America's national security. You can't just walk away from a hornets nest full of angry hornets your predesser stirred up. He's trying to fix Bush's messes. As for using dead peoples names and people pointing guns at people who didn't vote, I've not read anything anywhere about that.

 

As for Obamacare if the republicans hadn't of watered it down it would have provided people access to medical care they needed but could not otherwise get except in a emergency and then get charged 5 times as much for it than if the hospital had a flexible payment plan. The forced insurance would have made sure everyone rich or poor got healthcare they needed - how can that be bad?

 

Saying he's why your country has died the last 3 years is incorrect. I remember Bush threatening other countrys that if they didn't aid his wars they were enemys - he caused a lot of angst among countrys that were bullied into aiding. Certainly NZ didn't want to help but were forced to and although Helen Clark has big balls hers were not big enough to refuse Bush.

 

Bush is the one that ruined lives - sending troops to their deaths in wars that were nothing more than about stealing and robbing another countrys natural resources. Much Dishonor. Gave America a bad bad name everywhere.

 

So now that Bush is gone and Obama is now pressy he's trying to make life better for his citizens and having to clean up the messes Bush left such as the wars and angst it caused.

 

He's not just catering to the rich, he's also trying to help the poor but it's not easy when the republicans won't agree and his good has to get watered down before they agree.

 

As for the budgets, blame the republicans which never agree on anyone elses agenda's without watering it down. Obama wanted to cut more costs but the republicans didn't and there was a limited time frame involved so he had to compremise with the republicans to get it agreed on time.

 

Republicans do this because they know people will blame Obama and will forget that it was in fact them that did this to make Obama look bad.

 

I'm not even going to dignify your words about using dead people and people pointing guns at those who didn't vote him with a answer because I've never read anything anywhere about that.

[SubjectProphet]

Well, I hate political arguments guys, just want to bring that up, so please, don't drag me into this. :no:

 

Just leave it at this: I don't like Obama. My political views are Independent, I support neither the Democrats or Republicans, neither of the two parties have good points.

 

I'll try to find articles on what I said. Though that was in 2008, so it'll be a while.

[Lisnpuppy]

Well, I hate political arguments guys, just want to bring that up, so please, don't drag me into this. :no:

 

Just leave it at this: I don't like Obama. My political views are Independent, I support neither the Democrats or Republicans, neither of the two parties have good points.

 

I'll try to find articles on what I said. Though that was in 2008, so it'll be a while.

 

Please do try to find them that is a pretty big accusation. As for you "not wanting to be dragged into this"

 

Well we have a saying where I live, "Don't start none and there won't be none."

[grannywils]

Thank you for your last post, LP. :tongue:

 

And, SubjectProphet, to the best of my recollection you jumped into this pool all by yourself; no one pushed or dragged you... If you want to swim with the big fishes, be prepared, there may be a few sharks around the perimeter... :unsure:

[Aurielius]

Thank you for your last post, LP. :tongue:

 

And, SubjectProphet, to the best of my recollection you jumped into this pool all by yourself; no one pushed or dragged you... If you want to swim with the big fishes, be prepared, there may be a few sharks around the perimeter... :unsure:

OK, one of the sharks has arrived. I believe that SP was referring to the ACORN voter fraud which I can substantiate with the following.

Not exactly the fin you were looking for..hmm?

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4743/shark1.gif

Recent Fraud

 

State Year Details

AR 1998 A contractor with ACORN-affiliated Project Vote was arrested for falsifying about 400 voter registration cards.

CO 2005 Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations.

2004 An ACORN employee admitted to forging signatures and registering three of her friends to vote 40 times.

CT 2008 The New York Post reported that ACORN submitted a voter registration card for a 7-year-old Bridgeport girl. Another 8,000 cards from the same city will be scrutinized for possible fraud.

FL 2009 In September, 11 ACORN workers were accused of forging voter registration applications in Miami-Dade County during the last election. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the state attorney’s office scoured hundreds of suspicious applications provided by ACORN and found 197 of 260 contained personal ID information that did not match any living person.

2008 Election officials in Brevard County have given prosecutors more than 23 suspect registrations from ACORN. The state's Division of Elections is also investigating complaints in Orange and Broward Counties.

2004 A Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was “singled out” among suspected voter registration groups for a 2004 wage initiative because it was “the common thread” in the agency’s fraud investigations.

IN 2008 Election officials in Indiana have thrown out more than 4,000 ACORN-submitted voter registrations after finding they had identical handwriting and included the names of many deceased Indianans, and even the name of a fast food restaurant.

MI 2008 Clerks in Detroit found a "sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent [voter] applications" from the Michigan branch of ACORN. Those applications have been turned over to the U.S. Attorney's office for investigation.

2004 The Detroit Free Press reported that “overzealous or unscrupulous campaign workers in several Michigan counties are under investigation for voter-registration fraud, suspected of attempting to register nonexistent people or forging applications for already-registered voters.” ACORN-affiliate Project Vote was one of two groups suspected of turning in the documents.

MO 2008 Nearly 400 ACORN-submitted registrations in Kansas City have been rejected due to duplication or fake information.

2007 Four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election.

2006 Eight ACORN employees in St. Louis were indicted on federal election fraud charges. Each of the eight faces up to five years in prison for forging signatures and submitting false information.

2003 Of 5,379 voter registration cards ACORN submitted in St. Louis, only 2,013 of those appeared to be valid. At least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally.

MN 2004 During a traffic stop, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of a former ACORN employee, who had violated a legal requirements that registration cards be submitted to the Secretary of State within 10 days of being filled out and signed.

NC 2008 County elections officials have sent suspicious voter registration applications to the state Board of Elections. Many of the applications had similar or identical names, but with different addresses or dates of birth.

2004 North Carolina officials investigated ACORN for submitting fake voter registration cards.

NM 2008 Prosecutors are investigating more than 1,100 ACORN-submitted voter registration cards after a county clerk found them to be fraudulent. Many of the cards included duplicate names and slightly altered personal information.

2005 Four ACORN employees submitted as many as 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures on the group’s Albuquerque ballot initiative. A local sheriff added: “It’s safe to say the forgery was widespread.”

2004 An ACORN employee registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. Citing this and other examples, New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico.

NV 2009 Nevada authorities indicted ACORN on 26 counts of voter registration fraud and 13 counts of illegally compensating canvassers. ACORN provided a bonus compensation program called “Blackjack” or “21+” for any canvasser who registered more than 20 voters per shift, which is illegal under Nevada law.

2008 Nevada state authorities raided ACORN's Las Vegas headquarters as part of a task force investigation of election fraud. Fraudulent registrations included players from the Dallas Cowboys.

OH 2008 ACORN activists gave Ohio residents cash and cigarettes in exchange for filling out voter registration card, according to the New York Post. Some voters claim to have registered dozens of times, and one man says he signed up on 72 cards.

2007 A man in Reynoldsburg was indicted on two felony counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties.

2004 A grand jury indicted a Columbus ACORN worker for submitting a false signature and false voter registration form. In Franklin County, two ACORN workers submitted what the director of the board of election supervisors called “blatantly false” forms. In Cuyahoga County, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group.

PA 2009 Seven ACORN workers in the Pittsburgh area were indicted for submitting falsified voter registration forms. Six of the seven were also indicted for registering voters under an illegal quota system.

2008 State election officials have thrown out 57,435 voter registrations, the majority of which were submitted by ACORN. The registrations were thrown out after officials found "clearly fraudulent" signatures, vacant lots listed as addresses, and other signs of fraud.

2008 An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.

2004 Reading’s Director of Elections received calls from numerous individuals complaining that ACORN employees deliberately put inaccurate information on their voter registration forms. The Berks County director of elections said voter fraud was “absolutely out of hand,” and added: “Not only do we have unintentional duplication of voter registration but we have blatant duplicate voter registrations.” The Berks County deputy director of elections added that ACORN was under investigation by the Department of Justice.

TX 2008 In Harris County, nearly 10,000 ACORN-submitted registrations were found to be invalid, including many with clearly fraudulent addresses or other personal information.

2008 ACORN turned in the voter registration form of David Young, who told reporters “The signature is not my signature. It’s not even close.” His social security number and date of birth were also incorrect.

VA 2005 In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.

 

In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. "Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia."

WA 2007 Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive.

WI 2008 At least 33,000 ACORN-submitted registrations in Milwaukee have been called into question after it was found that the organizations had been using felons as registration workers, in violation of state election rules. Two people involved in the ongoing Wisconsin voter fraud investigation have been charged with felonies.

2004 The district attorney’s office investigated seven voter registration applications Project Vote employees filed in the names of people who said the group never contacted them. Former Project Vote employee Robert Marquise Blakely told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that he had not met with any of the people whose voter registration applications he signed, “an apparent violation of state law,” according to the paper.

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Edited March 15, 2012 by Aurielius