Abortion Rights Revisited

[skyquest32]

Government should just stay out of peoples personal lives. Legislating 'morality' has never worked, as everyone has a different idea of what is 'moral'. At one time, sex with someone of the same sex was illegal, as was sex in any other position than 'missionary'...... Government overreach at it's worst.

I agree regardless of my personal views that you are right, the same extends to diet and personal habits as well as opinion.

 

I am not arguing my personal beliefs I have every right to discuss with like minded souls but not to force on uninterested parties. Let alone try to governmentaly enforce.

 

This is self defense we are talking about here. Costing others there job and lively hood using media to try to take over every aspect of society and choke off freedom of thought.

 

They, the extremist camp, are what they accuse others of being. Something like communist dictators without the guns pointed in your face but they might if they could. Within reason this overshadows all.

 

That is one of the real reasons I am against extremist political correctness. Because its just another form of hypocritical propagandized fascism.

 

I don't give a flying flip about there personal lifes but have every right to my opinion just as they do.

 

Worse its attempted mind control, trying to use government to enforce there belief system on others in a manner that was nothing to do with the valid roll of government which is to protect national interest and the citizens/economy, not enforce philosophy or religion or punish people for how they feel or there instinctive reactions.

 

To enforce one opinion for all. One true way. Its not about opinion but the freedom to have one and express it, these people don't want rightness they want to turn the tables, they want to rule.

 

You have the right to hate, to love, to dislike, to express that opinion, but not to harm another for that reason.

 

Others may not agree with it, but in context and in the original spirit of this country and its intended freedom I am correct. Opinion and free expression of opinion is allowed.

Edited January 5, 2018 by skyquest32

[TheMastersSon]

Term limits would go a very long way in solving our now complete disenfranchisement from our own federal government. Just yesterday Jeff Sessions announced repeal of all three of Obama's hands-off DOJ policies toward states that have legalized cannabis, starting the process for yet another (ANOTHER!) round of utterly pointless waste of taxpayer money in the form of potential federal prosecution of 40 million people who just made cannabis entirely legal in their state. Along with five other states now. The man simply ignores the will of the American people and even the will of his own electorate, and he still (STILL!) readily defends cannabis being on the same DEA restriction schedule as heroin.

 

Thus a single ideologue keeps 320 million Americans from entering the new century and finally ending what's been, without any qualification, a complete failure and one of the biggest annual squanderings of public money in U.S. history since the Controlled Substances Act was passed. Our federal prisons are stuffed with non-violent drug offenders while drug usage rates remain unchanged. It is therefore pure political persecution, appeasement of reactionary stupidity and nothing else. Abortion laws are no different. They accomplish nothing except to satiate knee-jerk stupidity. I've been looking for a link to the poll I referenced for many years, poll results aren't usually published permanently at least online. But I swear on a stack of Bibles that it was a real poll, in fact at the time it even generated news articles about the apparent hypocrisy of self-identified conservatives. It's not accidental that this specific question, "If your own daughter had an unwanted pregnancy, would you prefer our government interfere with her abortion decision?", has as far as I know never reappeared in any abortion poll since. Because it instantly exposes the fundamental difference between advocating and passing abortion laws, and explaining to your pregnant daughter that she has no choice in whether to continue bearing the pains and costs and other required sacrifices of her own pregnancy. It simply doesn't work that way anywhere in our country except maybe inside the Pence household.

Edited January 5, 2018 by TheMastersSon

[RGMage2]

RGMage2, these poll results are not only unsurprising, they're consistent across most issues. Ask any group of self-identified conservative Republicans whether they'd prefer our government to interfere with moreless anything (not just abortion, by any means), the same 80+% will say no. It doesn't take any guts to say you favor laws against abortion, it's infinitely tougher to look your own daughter in the eye and tell her she's stuck with an unwanted pregnancy. Correct?

My initial issue here is I think you are using the results of a 15 year old poll to unfairly bash conservatives. Full disclosure: I am not a conservative. I don't dispute that hypocrisy is wide spread among conservatives, but I would add that it is also wide spread among liberals, and the entire human race in general. "Do as I say, not as I do" may as well be the motto of our species.

 

Personally I don't see abortion as a right/left issue, in spite of the fact that both right and left political movements have seized opposite sides of the argument like a couple of rabid dogs, but like with most things in life, the political dogs don't understand the world in which they live. In my experience it is not cut and dry that a conservative will be against abortion in all situations and a liberal will favour unobstructed access to abortion regardless of circumstances. It's a morally complex issue.

 

As for polls, my knee-jerk first response is always to wonder who paid for the poll and what was their agenda. That's just the type of person I am - I don't accept anything at face value, I always look for the underlying truth.

 

On the subject of "Conservatives" I have to ask, just for the sake of argument: which type of Conservative? It's not a one size fits all, just as it isn't for "Liberals". You can be a fiscal Conservative and socially Liberal. You can also be a Liberal with the purse strings, fully in favour of big government and yet be a social Conservative. There are all types in this world, like for example my 83 year old mother who would self identify as a Conservative, even watches Fox News, yet if you asked her about abortion she would say the Conservatives have it wrong on that one.

 

When I first saw the subject of this thread I flagged it in my mind as a topic to be avoided. I told myself absolutely do not post on that topic... and then I posted. OK, sometimes I'm stupid.

 

 

it's infinitely tougher to look your own daughter in the eye and tell her she's stuck with an unwanted pregnancy. Correct?

 

You've asked me a question, and in-spite of my better judgement I am going to try and answer it as honestly as I can. First for disclosure, if I had to label myself politically and could only choose between Liberal or Conservative I would say Liberal. I don't think it's an adequate description of who I am but it is closer than the alternative. Also for disclosure I do not have a daughter, I have no children, so I can only speculate on my response based on my self-knowledge of who I am and who I would like to be.

 

In the world I would like to live, birth control methods would be widely available for all people. Morning after pills would be sold over the counter without prescription and no doctor involved. Girl goes to counter and asks pharmacist for pill and pharmacist gives girl pill. It should be that easy, and if it were that easy then there would be almost no need for other abortion procedures.

 

But of course we don't live in that world. So a couple of weeks after the fact, my fictional daughter comes to me with this problem. First I think I should be so lucky that she would come to me instead of her mother, that would mean we had a really good relationship. The first thing I would say to her is "how do you feel about it?" and then "what do you want to do?" and then I would support her any way I could. And if she wants an abortion I'll drive her to the doctor, and if the doctor can't or wont help, we'll get another doctor. Go wherever, do whatever it takes.

 

On the other hand, let's say she decided to have the baby, but after 4 or 5 months she comes to me and says she changed her mind and wanted an abortion... that's a totally different situation. I'm sure I would try to steer her in the direction of having the child and giving it up for adoption, and I would offer whatever support I could to make it easier for her. But let's say she is adamant about it, she wants rid of that baby - for whatever reason. It would be absolutely gut wrenching for me and I'm not sure what my initial reaction would be. In the end I would probably bend to her will and assist her in any way I could. And then later when she wasn't around I would probably break down and cry.

 

But the pivotal question here: Is it murder? Maybe. It might be, I don't know. So maybe the state should have a say in it. I do know that this hypothetical daughter is likely to be the most precious thing in the world to me and I would kill for her. I would kill for my child and willingly bare the shame of it, like a stain on my soul for all eternity.

 

Anyway that's just speculation and probably has more to do with the person I would like to be than the person I am. The point is though that abortion is a very complex moral issue and defies an easy answer. If it were not so, then there would be nothing to debate.

[HeyYou]

Fair bit of it would depend on the age of the daughter as well.

 

My adult daughter (late 20's at the time) got pregnant as the result of a rape. I left the decision up to her. She decided against abortion, and seriously considered adoption...... right up until the baby was born...... One look, and well, that's my granddaughter Destiny, who just turned 10 recently. Beautiful girl, wonderful attitude (with me at least.....) and I wouldn't trade her for anything. :D

 

On the other hand.... when I was MUCH younger...... I got a gal pregnant, and neither one of us were in a position to raise a child..... (still in high school....) so, off to the doc we went.

 

I think ALL politicians have their hypocritical moments. Some more than others..... and it always boils down to attempting to dictate how folks live their life. None of them really have a clue what it is to live in the REAL world, that the rest of us have to deal with. Most of them are independently wealthy in any event. (and if they aren't when they go to D.C. they sure are after their first term......) I am waiting for Wall Street to come out into the open with it, and finally admit that politicians might as well be traded on the open market..... We get the same end result.

 

Term limits would certainly make a difference. Banning PAID lobbyists would also be a step in the right direction. Banning tax exempt entities from having lobbyists AT ALL wouldn't be a bad idea either. (right along with corporations whose headquarters are NOT in the US.......)

[TheMastersSon]

On the other hand, let's say she decided to have the baby, but after 4 or 5 months she comes to me and says she changed her mind and wanted an abortion...

Just over one percent (1.3%) of abortions in our country are performed after the 20th week of pregnancy, and the vast majority of those are due to fatal anamolies that cannot be detected prior to development of the fetus. 89% of abortions are done within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy:

 

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states

Edited January 5, 2018 by TheMastersSon

[RGMage2]

 

One look, and well, that's my granddaughter Destiny, who just turned 10 recently. Beautiful girl, wonderful attitude (with me at least.....) and I wouldn't trade her for anything. :D

I envy you.

 

 

On the other hand, let's say she decided to have the baby, but after 4 or 5 months she comes to me and says she changed her mind and wanted an abortion...

Just over one percent (1.3%) of abortions in our country are performed after the 20th week of pregnancy, and the vast majority of those are due to fatal anamolies that cannot be detected prior to development of the fetus. 98% of abortions are done within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy:

 

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states

 

Thanks for the link. Interesting statistics.

[Fkemman11]

I don't dispute that hypocrisy is wide spread among conservatives, but I would add that it is also wide spread among liberals, and the entire human race in general. "Do as I say, not as I do" may as well be the motto of our species.

 

 

 

Truer words have never been written...or spoken. :happy:

 

I think leaders fall under the illusory mindset of "knowing what is good for the people as a whole and what is not" because, well, they were elected or "chosen" by the people or majority. Remember that they are privy to information not available to the general public- thus they feel they should be able to make much more informed decisions on issues. But, somewhere in the transition from ordinary citizen to leader, they seem to become alienated from the true will of the people- or they never had any intention of serving the people in good faith to begin with. Some take office with high ideals of making meaningful changes during their tenure, but inevitably they are bought and paid for by the incredibly rich and powerful. It is not the politicians that are deciding to push the same agendas doomed to political deadlock or to undermine advancements in social reform, it is the ones paying for that politicians vacation to Jamaica or their new yacht. I can't help but feel that there is a much bigger picture that we ordinary citizens cannot and are not meant to see- or know about. Call me stupid or crazy, I don't care.

[TheMastersSon]

98% of abortions are done within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy

Make that 89% and sorry for the typo. Corrected in my earlier post.

[Mudran]

I'm not for it or against it, there can be consequences and it is you who have to live with them - only I know that if you have a child which is unwanted, the child will always know that and if you have it with a person you don't like or in circumstances which would leave you frustrated with child, the child will feel that too, but that decision is never easy. I know 1 example when it was made during bad times and now that person have another child, which is wanted with beloved husband and the kid just feels he is loved.

 

On the other hand I know about forced abortion long time ago, so you can see results, where just because the husband didn't want to feed another kid and because they had only 1 child, when the lonely kid was facing some hard times in his life, he had nobody to help because nobody was so close to him so he died. I still think that if his sister would be born, she would be the only one who could help him and it wouldn't have to be a tragedy or if she couldn't, she would help the parents to get over it and she would be the only one who could do it - because your child is always your child - nobody else does matter that much.

 

That is scary with life in many areas - so many decisions and so many times you don't know where it will lead to.

[skyquest32]

What I am against is non pragmatic fanaticism and drama weaseling, trying to be enforced on ether side, its beyond the issue itself its just one example. Its dangerous to the country. Its all hypocrisy anyway, bring out the worst natural human instincts.

 

They are not thinking clearly and don't care to.

 

In fact some are rather enjoying this I suspect...and yet it creates real world economical social and other problems, its costing lives with the unstable....and as I tried to say in context the other side (other-side?) *snicker* is trying to do what they accuse the others of by calling everyone Notsee and instead of using reason. Are they really that insure or is it pure delusion?

 

To make a crude example, if a man wants to make a lifestyle out of buggering farm fresh produce, its his business as long as he dose not try to gain universal agreement or involve others or there opinions, for what his doing and enforce it. Maybe Ruining everyone's trip to the supermarket and expecting no comment. Maybe trying to get the store manger fired for saying clean up on isle 6.''you bigot how dare you?'' Hahaha.

 

They doing what mostly happens and running off as far as they can go. The sad thing is its not really about what its supposed to be about and some well meaning people are just confused and baselessly worried. There is no problem they are making it.

 

They are afraid of a concept an opinion and want to force everyone to say they are universal right and end all debate. Legally enforce it. That is legislating thoughts trying to kill ideas. That is not reality. It wont work it brings War.

 

They view everything as an attack. ''The extremist'' Its sort of a mass collective thing and some actual believe what they say but its twisted. Even if from there point of view there intentions are good. They have lost all sense of perspective. Some don't even know what they are really afraid of anymore its vague and interviewed subjects could not even explain properly.

 

They have kids worrying about this. Its a little sick.

 

. Its utterly goofy and makes me feel embarrassed in a very special way, the kind of embarrassment people are ether to unperceptive or simple to feel for themselves.