Abortion Rights Revisited

[JimboUK]

 

Can we stop the religious stuff please? for those unaware why https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/13193-religious-debates-are-banned/

Honest Jim, we are TRYING to, but, it's hard to avoid stepping close to that line on some topics.... This being one of them. We aren't really 'debating' religion...... but, we are using religion are part of our arguments......

 

Sorry Man.

 

 

The way I look at it doesn't involve religion or politics, it's when you do believe human life starts, for those who believe it's at birth or at least when the fetus is viable then not being concerned about it is understandable, however for those who believe it begins at conception it's going to be a problem, it would be bizarre for it not to be, there is no right and wrong, only opinion. All the current debate does is underline the infantilization of modern politics, everyone insisting their way is the only way and that anyone who disagrees with them is evil.

[EnglishGentleman]

yup i agree with ya let the woman decide what to do

 

i've always said about these people that say abortion is murder what if thee woman was sexual violated would you what to raise that sick twisted waste of oxygen's(this is the nicest thing i could say without being banned) baby and be constantly reminded of them no no you wouldn't and to the gay marriage yeah let them get married why does me and a woman have more right to be misable....i mean married then gay couple we don't complain when we're watching them on certain websites

 

i'm going to stop before i get to passionate about it that and i felt myself pushing boundaries a bit but in my defence it is true

[PkSanTi]

It is hard enough to have an ethical life; it's impossible to build a fully ethical society. The reason is our precious individuality, and the way our considerations of ethics and our own needs will never be fully in sync with society's ethics. We must, then, think reasonably, and avoid considering abortion in an ethical way when discussing the policies; it should only be considered ethically when thought of as a decision on a particular case. And reality says: abortion happens. Laws do not prevent abortion; they only seclude abortion to a clandestine, unsafe underground of society. If we can't prevent that it occurs, we might as well try to build our society in a way that, when it occurs, it occurs safely. Women die constantly for wrong-conducted abortions; how long will we ignore that fact? If abortion was legal, it's safe to say that the number of abortions that in fact occur would not increase considerably, since they happen anyway, but they'd occur safely for the woman that chooses to practise one. That's the end of the case policy-wise.

Â

In the ethical order, to which the political order doesn't necessarily follow -to think that politics is the discipline of social ethics is naive; it's the discipline of social reality, which seldom has anything to do with ethics-, most of the ethical discussions are too full of shades and colours to establish precise and unquestionable bases. Abortion is not the case: we can establish a scientific beginning of life within a more or less precise period of time since conception. It is unquestionable that human life does not begin with conception, and that it occurs much later. With those limits established, it's fair to say that there's plenty of time for a woman to practise abortion without falling into the stigma of having killed a life. Abortion is NOT assassination. And, ultimately, the ethical decision of practising abortion falls into the hands of the woman, not the state, since abortion has little impact -as it's being stated before- in social life. Actually, the only true and strong impact abortion has on social life is the constant death and pains we put woman through by banning it. I believe the answer is clear.Â

Â

In relation to conservative arguments, it's quite common to see how right-winged sectors don't fully agree on what they say and do. I do not think it matters, anyway. Only thing that matters are facts, and the facts say: abortion happens, whether it's banned or not. So we might just as well legalise it and make it safe for the people; we gain both in ensuring safety and granting freedom to the women. (Same argument goes for drugs.) Ethics are an individual question, and state -nor religion- have nothing to do with it. Â

Â

I've travelled a lot in my yet short life, and came to know societies in which abortion was already legal. Cuba was the first one (let's not enter in a Cuba related discussion, since it's another topic; let's stick with abortion, which is the point I want to make!!). I talked to women who had practised abortion, most of them several times in their lives, in a safe, medically controlled environment, and for free! And none have been stigmatised nor had regrets. Why? Because, with lot's of things to say about Cuba, is a material, scientific society, with nearly no christian superstitions. I believe that christian heritage and christian values confuse us when trying to decide what are factual and ethical problems. I believe we should build a society that thinks and acts according to facts and reason, and not superstitions. Anyway, just sharing what I saw in Cuba, which surprised me.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PkSanTi

[skyquest32]

Lets stem emotion for moment, then cut it off and look at it as it: Oh you cant stop abortion, you would have women doing it with coat hangers again or getting there husbands to cause them to miscarry like they once did. I would say the father and the mother would need to agree as he provides the seed, she the incubator. Further you have women dumping babies in the trash outside parties or silly geese having them in bathrooms and leaving them in toilets, I have seen it on the news. If you want to be pragmatic and look at what will likely globally occur regardless what anyone thinks then if its murder or ''potential murder'' or not dose ''bot'' matter...The issue is if the parents feel feel should go on and do it anyway?

Edited January 11, 2018 by skyquest32

[TheMastersSon]

Uh, you're using examples of babies left in garbage bins and toilets to argue for laws against abortion? The mind boggles.

 

Are you the same person who claimed power in our country would be less centralized if only our government was allowed to bear arms and not the people?

Edited January 13, 2018 by TheMastersSon

[elenalejua]

TheMastersSon, on 02 Jan 2018 - 8:06 PM, said:

 

 

My favorite bottom line on the abortion rights issue is what a poll taken maybe 15 or so years ago indicated. According to the poll and entirely predictably, 80% of respondants who self-identified as conservative said they favored laws restricting or eliminating abortion rights for women in some or all cases. But later in that same poll another question was asked, the following is either exact or a close approximation: "If your own daughter had an unwanted pregnancy, would you want our government to interfere with her abortion decision?", and I kid you not, 85% of these same self-identified conservatives said no.

So I'm not sure what to make of it, other than to chock it up to stupidity and a whole lot of right-wingers who apparently have never thought their position on abortion rights all the way through. They wish to restrict and ban abortion but only for everybody else's families.

In my book, recognition of any constitutional rights for any subgroup of cells within a woman's own body is not only ridiculous but an inherent violation of her own right to control her own body or any portion thereof. And the day our pope or Mike Pence can bear the pains and costs and other sacrifices of pregnancy and labor is the day they'll have the right to force these pains on someone or anyone else. It's why, aside from almost a half century of personal experience with friends and family, I consider one's position on abortion rights to be one of the best and most accurate indicators not of morality but of basic intelligence. The same is true btw for same-sex marriage recognition, i.e. if you're against it, don't do it. And if you're against other people doing it, pass a law against it if the public will exists to do so. And if the will doesn't exist to do so, please go home and mind your own marriages. It's a much more noble, infinitely more possible and rewarding effort.

 

Im glad you think that your argument is intelligent. It makes me smile. I love you, in all honesty.

But love aside, I find it tragic that you or anyone can condone the murder of unborn human beings. These unwanted pregnancies turned abortion are literally people being murdered before they ever get a chance to live, usually because the parents are broke, lazy, un-educated, lacking the real american grit, and are otherwise devoid of anything but the semblance of worldly responsibility.

These are people. Have you ever seen a f***ing disney film? These are whole lives that are just being squashed, everything they could ever do or achieve, every possible Einstein (yeah or serial killer you sicko), because you wouldnt wear a condom, practice abstinence, keep track of your teenagers and train them to be men and women of action.

"In my book, recognition of any constitutional rights for any subgroup of cells within a woman's own body is not only ridiculous but an inherent violation of her own right to control her own body or any portion thereof."

Yeah we just make sure its illegal once those cells can make audible cries after leaving the birth canal naturally. Before that, well, just murder away. How else are we going to feed this billion dollar baby parts industry?

You disgust me more than you will ever know. I hope you talk to God.

"Words do not express thoughts very well...
Everything immediately becomes a little different, a little distorted, a little foolish.

And yet it also pleases me and seems right
that what is of value and wisdom to one man,
seems nonsense to another."

~Hermann Hesse

God Bless!

Edited February 6, 2018 by elenalejua

[elenalejua]

Fkemman11, on 03 Jan 2018 – 5:59 PM, said:

 

 

It's not something I think any state or government body should have any say over. It is a personal moral dilemma that has no impact on society at large one way or the other and should not be a legal one. But, when has that ever stopped lawyers or politicians from trying to outlaw it? This country's and maybe the World's citizens need more support for this and similar issues- not laws making them a crime and punishable. Those days of finding dead pregnant women with clothing hangers still in them with blood all over the floor should remain buried in the past....forever.
However, I can understand pro-lifer's viewpoint on this issue. They believe that all life is "special" and deserves the right to live- among other rights. When is it a human deserving of rights? is the question that resurfaces again and again. When or is it murder? The poll conducted illustrates very clearly a "double" standard by those opposed to pro-choice. They would condemn others for practicing their rights as a mother and citizen, but, somehow think that they themselves are above or immune to such a law. Yes- they are hypocritical fools. The other 15% who said they would include their own daughters in any such law to make it illegal...are liars.
I do agree that all life should be considered "special". But as I said, I do not feel it is my right or anyone else's to force a pregnant woman to carry to term. The states should instead be offering alternatives to abortion- such as adoption and perhaps some kind of compensation for carrying to term. There are many couples here and abroad that cannot have children of their own due to whatever reason and seek a child through adoption agencies. Another option would be to make the unwanted child a ward of the state- giving them certain rights and freedoms with the understanding that they would be beholden to the state and serve for a number of years in the armed forces. This could help with declining numbers of applicants for the respective military branches. In fact, as wards of the state, these children could be trained as our nations elite soldiers to call upon in times of war or crises. This might sound somewhat crazy to some, but, it is still a reasonable alternative to NEVER being born.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

You always have a choice. Those women had choices.

There are not very many circumstances where choosing your life over the life of an innocent child is acceptable. The reason is of no consequence.

Its also murder. Thats the big problem with a lot of people here. They are not even owning up to the fact that an actual real human life is being extinguished here. There is a REAL death sentence being passed on human beings, the most innocent and helpless of us all.

If there really are aliens or other beings up there in space, I bet they think we are the worst scum of the universe, based on how we treat our young. And THERE Im not just talking about abortion.

Nonchalant pro choice argument flying left and right without anyone admitting the facts to themselves. People are being killed and laws are being written to protect it in order to fuel and grow a multi billion dollar industry of baby parts. The demand is so high because we want to keep the genetic research going.

Soon you'll get to just grow your baby in the toilet. Little PooGro Jr. Hes everything you wanted with every trait selected by hand. Is everyone's super genetic dream come true? Was it that big of a step up from where you lived now?

Abortions.... smh....

Edited February 6, 2018 by elenalejua

[HeyYou]

Fkemman11, on 03 Jan 2018 – 5:59 PM, said:

 

 

It's not something I think any state or government body should have any say over. It is a personal moral dilemma that has no impact on society at large one way or the other and should not be a legal one. But, when has that ever stopped lawyers or politicians from trying to outlaw it? This country's and maybe the World's citizens need more support for this and similar issues- not laws making them a crime and punishable. Those days of finding dead pregnant women with clothing hangers still in them with blood all over the floor should remain buried in the past....forever.

However, I can understand pro-lifer's viewpoint on this issue. They believe that all life is "special" and deserves the right to live- among other rights. When is it a human deserving of rights? is the question that resurfaces again and again. When or is it murder? The poll conducted illustrates very clearly a "double" standard by those opposed to pro-choice. They would condemn others for practicing their rights as a mother and citizen, but, somehow think that they themselves are above or immune to such a law. Yes- they are hypocritical fools. The other 15% who said they would include their own daughters in any such law to make it illegal...are liars.

I do agree that all life should be considered "special". But as I said, I do not feel it is my right or anyone else's to force a pregnant woman to carry to term. The states should instead be offering alternatives to abortion- such as adoption and perhaps some kind of compensation for carrying to term. There are many couples here and abroad that cannot have children of their own due to whatever reason and seek a child through adoption agencies. Another option would be to make the unwanted child a ward of the state- giving them certain rights and freedoms with the understanding that they would be beholden to the state and serve for a number of years in the armed forces. This could help with declining numbers of applicants for the respective military branches. In fact, as wards of the state, these children could be trained as our nations elite soldiers to call upon in times of war or crises. This might sound somewhat crazy to some, but, it is still a reasonable alternative to NEVER being born.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

 

You always have a choice. Those women had choices.

 

There are not very many circumstances where choosing your life over the life of an innocent child is acceptable. The reason is of no consequence.

 

Its also murder. Thats the big problem with a lot of people here. They are not even owning up to the fact that an actual real human life is being extinguished here. There is a REAL death sentence being passed on human beings, the most innocent and helpless of us all.

 

If there really are aliens or other beings up there in space, I bet they think we are the worst scum of the universe, based on how we treat our young. And THERE Im not just talking about abortion.

 

Nonchalant pro choice argument flying left and right without anyone admitting the facts to themselves. People are being killed and laws are being written to protect it in order to fuel and grow a multi billion dollar industry of baby parts. The demand is so high because we want to keep the genetic research going.

 

Soon you'll get to just grow your baby in the toilet. Little PooGro Jr. Hes everything you wanted with every trait selected by hand. Is everyone's super genetic dream come true? Was it that big of a step up from where you lived now?

 

Abortions.... smh....

A potential human life.

 

Dealing in absolutes really doesn't do you any favors. I would also point out that the folks having the abortions are generally (75% generally) low income. And there is no form of birth control that is 100% effective, aside from abstinence... but, expecting folks to only have sex when they WANT to make a baby..... well, lets just say that that is unrealistic, to the point of delusional. You think abortion is wrong? Fine, don't have one, but, don't expect everyone to agree with you either, and you CAN expect them to get angry with you when you try and force your beliefs on them.

[elenalejua]

 

Fkemman11, on 03 Jan 2018 – 5:59 PM, said:

 

 

It's not something I think any state or government body should have any say over. It is a personal moral dilemma that has no impact on society at large one way or the other and should not be a legal one. But, when has that ever stopped lawyers or politicians from trying to outlaw it? This country's and maybe the World's citizens need more support for this and similar issues- not laws making them a crime and punishable. Those days of finding dead pregnant women with clothing hangers still in them with blood all over the floor should remain buried in the past....forever.

However, I can understand pro-lifer's viewpoint on this issue. They believe that all life is "special" and deserves the right to live- among other rights. When is it a human deserving of rights? is the question that resurfaces again and again. When or is it murder? The poll conducted illustrates very clearly a "double" standard by those opposed to pro-choice. They would condemn others for practicing their rights as a mother and citizen, but, somehow think that they themselves are above or immune to such a law. Yes- they are hypocritical fools. The other 15% who said they would include their own daughters in any such law to make it illegal...are liars.

I do agree that all life should be considered "special". But as I said, I do not feel it is my right or anyone else's to force a pregnant woman to carry to term. The states should instead be offering alternatives to abortion- such as adoption and perhaps some kind of compensation for carrying to term. There are many couples here and abroad that cannot have children of their own due to whatever reason and seek a child through adoption agencies. Another option would be to make the unwanted child a ward of the state- giving them certain rights and freedoms with the understanding that they would be beholden to the state and serve for a number of years in the armed forces. This could help with declining numbers of applicants for the respective military branches. In fact, as wards of the state, these children could be trained as our nations elite soldiers to call upon in times of war or crises. This might sound somewhat crazy to some, but, it is still a reasonable alternative to NEVER being born.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

 

You always have a choice. Those women had choices.

 

There are not very many circumstances where choosing your life over the life of an innocent child is acceptable. The reason is of no consequence.

 

Its also murder. Thats the big problem with a lot of people here. They are not even owning up to the fact that an actual real human life is being extinguished here. There is a REAL death sentence being passed on human beings, the most innocent and helpless of us all.

 

If there really are aliens or other beings up there in space, I bet they think we are the worst scum of the universe, based on how we treat our young. And THERE Im not just talking about abortion.

 

Nonchalant pro choice argument flying left and right without anyone admitting the facts to themselves. People are being killed and laws are being written to protect it in order to fuel and grow a multi billion dollar industry of baby parts. The demand is so high because we want to keep the genetic research going.

 

Soon you'll get to just grow your baby in the toilet. Little PooGro Jr. Hes everything you wanted with every trait selected by hand. Is everyone's super genetic dream come true? Was it that big of a step up from where you lived now?

 

Abortions.... smh....

A potential human life.

 

Dealing in absolutes really doesn't do you any favors. I would also point out that the folks having the abortions are generally (75% generally) low income. And there is no form of birth control that is 100% effective, aside from abstinence... but, expecting folks to only have sex when they WANT to make a baby..... well, lets just say that that is unrealistic, to the point of delusional. You think abortion is wrong? Fine, don't have one, but, don't expect everyone to agree with you either, and you CAN expect them to get angry with you when you try and force your beliefs on them.

 

This tired excuse sickens me.

 

Condoms are 99.9% effective if you are even remotely careful.

 

There are thousands of would be parents to accept adopted children. The waiting list for adoption in metropolitan areas is still extremely long, and yet we are still murdering babies by the thousands.

 

Killing "potential" human lives as you say, just because we are f*#@ing lazy as a race. DISGUSTING!

 

Condoning murder on this massive scale. That's the real delusion.

Edited February 6, 2018 by elenalejua

[Harbringe]

 

Abortions.... smh....

A potential human life.

 

 

 

 

No, medically/biologically/scientifically it is both human and alive.Hence it is a human life. The semantics you are using is a distinction on the state (fully developed or not) of that human life. The only way the pro choice argument works is if you treat that human life as a non human.

 

And Elenalejua is right , the non chalant mental gymnastic pro choice arguments people are making are verging on the ridiculous.

 

Take this statement for example that the pro choice throws around and has been used here. "You only care about the baby before its born , after its born you couldn't care less" No I care about the behaviour and choices being made that lead to the situation of an abortion to begin with. And what sort of rationale nonsense is it that I someone who did not slip their dick into anything , did not get to enjoy drunken wild sex or whatever and am now expected to take responsibility for something I didn't do , whatever happened to people being accountable for their own actions. Its not like an unwanted pregancy can't happen from that behaviour , its only been happening to humans for the last 300,000 years. Think we would of learned by now.

 

@TheMasterson

 

Sorry (Canadian Eh) But I've got to call out your BS . People have asked you to substantiate your 80% and 85% claim and have failed to do so. No where can I find anything to correlate your claims. In fact I haven't been able to find anything at all on the 85% claim. But on the 80% claim whether Iv'e looked at Gallup , Pew , Time Mag , whoever all of them place your most religious conservative types at about 70% (varies per year) , your traditional conservative 64% (again varies) and your small L or libertarian type conservative at about 56%(again varies) ,these are all abortion illegal in all/most cases. The average seems to be around 65% all combined. No where have I been able to get your 80% polling.So quite frankly I think your just making it up. And if your not, produce it. Here's Pew Reasearch data going back to 1995. http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

 

 

I consider one's position on abortion rights to be one of the best and most accurate indicators not of morality but of basic intelligence.

 

Oh really , well lets see if that holds up and examine whether the position you hold on abortion produces any inconsistencies on a sociological level.

 

When a woman wants an abortion and the man doesn't , the abortion is granted regardless of him. If the woman wants to keep the baby and the man doesn't , he will be legally required to support that baby despite his objection. If the man becomes upset by this circumstance and murders the woman he will be charged with a double homicide , the taking of 2 lives ,despite the fact that if she had decided to abort the baby a mere 1 hour earlier there would be no crime committed. And all of this due to a baby in development in a womb in which it had no choice in that situational circumstance. Hows that basic intelligence working out for you , is it being consistent.

 

What this really comes down to is how are we as a species going to regard what can be considered the least of human life. And if we are going to have no regard for it , why should a person have regard for anything else. The pro choice argument really is just a "I will do as I please and the consequences or responsibility be damned"