Why is communism a bad word?

[ScytheBearer]

Communism does work quite well on a small scale. In group sizes where the loss of one member could jeopardize the survival of the group, the need to share resources is vital. In these size groups, communism, or communalism, is a necessary survival skill. This holds true for clan groups and, small nomadic tribal groups.

The problem is that as groups get larger, the need to ensure that everyone gets their share requires some sort of accounting, which means centralized management, which means authority, which means power. We humans are quite predictable in that trend. We make chiefs, sultans, kings, emperors, and even gods and their priests to obtain and consolidate that power.

And that is, unfortunately, why "communism" and "authoritarianism" get conflated. Then communism becomes a synonym for authoritarianism, and we the wrong words to describe the atrocities of a dictatorial government.

[Soothsayerman]

 

 

Many great minds have been drawn to communism. But many of those great minds lacked the understanding of human nature. Communism is simply not attainable unless you neuter and wipe out peoples identities and self interests,,,,

 

...Wait a minute

Communism was always meant as an ideal, not something actually completely attainable because it is something that has to happen organically. It has to happen from the bottom up, not the top down because the people carrying out the revolt are at the bottom of the economic ladder. It is not the holders of capital and land that are revolting to give it away.

 

Think of Star Trek as communism.

 

Communist regimes seek to create a political and socioeconomic environment that will support communism.

 

Communism is of course on the same political spectrum as fascism. They can be thought of as end points of the measure in the balance of power between public vs private interests.

 

The USA is a fascist state unfortunately, which means anything that is not fascist is viewed as extremism. The general public is largely unaware because the general public in the USA is never formally educated on sociology and political systems. This is expedient in keeping the status quo as you can imagine.

 

I do not believe you understand what fascist means, Nazi's are fascist, the KKK is fascist, the United States is inclusive, though admittedly more in theory than practice. But hey humans. The United States is a organic growing government, and the reason it works and everyone wants to live here (looks at the illegal and legal immigration numbers again to be sure.) Yeah EVERYBODY wants to live her is because it is inclusive. To truly embrace the ideal of the United States is to embrace the ideal that more than one idea or way of doing things can be right. Which offends most humans unfortunately. Fascism is most easily defined as "My way or your dead". Fascism needs a central figure, or ruler, Congress, social media and Gun nuts (see what I did there?) prevent that from happening in the United States.

 

The problem with being inclusive, with defending the freedom of speech is that you have to defend it for everyone or you are a hypocrite. So while I despise everything they stand for I will defend their right to say their ideals, I simply exercise my right to ignore everything they say. You want the hate to go away? Make people that hate irrelevant, ignore them, Do not respond to them block them on social media and encourage others to do the same. The more you respond to people like that the more traction you give their ideas. Calling someone a basket of deplorables because they said something you disagree with just means you gave them all the credibility. It makes you look small and petty and them look reasonable. The left won the social war through calm rational intelligent debate. Then forgot everything they learned in the 90's and became everything the used to claim they could not stand about the right.

 

How much credibility do you really have when you preach tolerance and yet are intolerant of anyone that disagrees with you even slightly?

 

 

And yes banning books happened before in 1930's Germany and yes that was fascism at its peak, being butthurt for being compared to that when that is exactly how you are acting is hypocrisy at it's finest. Erasing and denying history is not how you prevent it from happening again. Learning from it is, of course the hero's and leaders of the past come off looking bad by today's standards. We have grown as a society since then, imagine how we will look in 200 years how terrible will our descendance say we are when we are compared to their standards?

 

No, I understand it very well from a formal education perspective and an economic perspective.

 

Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism:

 

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism, Nation above all else. Fascist regimes are fond of iconography and patriotic symbols in order to create a nationalistic furor to leverage against an external imaginary threat which can be used as a scapegoat for bad public policy or the reason for national ills that are blamed instead the result of bad public policy.

 

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security; people in fascist regimes are typically persuaded that human rights can be ignored because of “need.” Fascist regimes work to deteriorate rights because they seek to create an authoritarian government.

 

3. Identification of Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The population is rallied into a patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, religious, ethnic or political factions are demonized. Immigrants are blamed, different groups within the population are demonized.

 

4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of public funding and the domestic agenda is neglected. The USA spends more on military than the next top 11 spending countries combined. The USA is also the largest arms dealer in the world selling billions in arms every year. The profit of these sales are the rewards reaped by private interests at the expense of the taxpayer.

 

5. Rampant Sexism – Governments of Fascist Regimes are almost exclusively male-dominated. Gender roles become more rigid. Banning abortion, sexism, making women's healthcare scarce etc are all tactics used to create division within the society. The more fractures that can be manufactured the better.

 

6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes the media is controlled directly by the government, sometimes it is controlled by regulation, sometimes it is controlled by proxy through corporations. In the USA 13 billionaires control 90% of what American hear, see, read and watch on television. The equal time clause was repealed by Reagan and many attempts to reinstate it have failed.

 

7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government to control the masses. This is expedient in creating a police state as right to privacy is slowly eroded in the name of "safety". The USA spends more than the top 11 spending countries combined and the military is a discretionary budget item which always increases no matter what while public infrastructure crumbles.

 

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in Fascist Regimes tend to use the most common religion as a tool to manipulate public opinion.

 

9. Corporate Power is Protected at All costs – The Industrial and Business Aristocracy of a fascist nation are often the ones who put government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial relationship. Government becomes the proxy for corporate power. In the USA this is a major feature of fascism and a primary objective of any fascist state. The corruption of public government by private interests to create a symbiotic relationship in order to enrich the state and private interests by looting the tax coffers. The once public institution of government becomes the proxy for private interests.

 

10. The Power of Labor is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed. Corporate power must ascend and labor must be disenfranchised and lose all power to influence the price of labor. In the USA wages have been stagnant since 1970 taking inflation in to account while the GDP and productivity have skyrocketed. CEO pay from 1978 to 2019 has risen over 1300% while wages for the rank and file have stagnated.

 

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and The Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education and academia. This is expedient to the fascist agenda which seeks to elevate ideology over factual debate. Ideology, iconography, slogans, memes all rise above the interest in factual data.

 

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power over the population to enforce laws. The USA incarcerates over 2 million and over 11 million churn through the "justice" system every year. 1 in 5 people incarcerated in the world are incarcerated in the USA. Over 400,000 people languish in jails that have yet to be convicted of a crime and are "presumed innocent until proven guilty". The infrastructure to support such widespread incarceration generate billions for private interests.

 

 

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Government is filled with groups of friends, associates, relatives who appoint each other to government positions.

 

14. Fraudulent Elections – Elections in Fascist regimes are a complete sham or compromised and feature smear campaigns, sensationalism and sometimes assassination of candidates. Fascists continually seek to cast doubt on the validity of elections. The overall objective being the deterioration of voting rights so poll taxes, voting only on certain days, in person voting only etc are used to discourage public participation in the political process.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Soothsayerman

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

Unfortunately, that is all to true. And while there will always be plenty of people in said lunatic fringe espousing views and beliefs that make those of use with common sense go "Say what now?" What I mean by ignore is do not sink to their level, teach anyone who will listen why they are wrong, and when they come after you for saying things opposed to what they believe do not rise to the bait. I am as old as Star Wars. Literally it came out the year I was born. I have watched the world grow and regress in equal measure; and the most common truth that can be applied to most people is this. They cannot accept that what works for them, does not necessarily work for you. For some reason we arrogant humans always believe we know best. and yes I include myself in that because as much as I like to claim to be enlightened,

 

 

I am still human.

You have reached the distinction between objective truth and subjective truth.

Objective truth it true for everyone. Objective truth is arrived at via science and the scientific method. Ideas which have been tested and proven factual by multiple sources. Truths based in data and facts which are repeatable and measurable, unfettered by wishful thinking and opinion. This is where journalism is supposed to reside, but alas ... that brings us to subjective truth.

 

Subjective truth is true for oneself, and not necessarily for anyone else. This is the realm of religion and philosophy, opinion and "that fuzzy stuff". Ideals which are untested, and unproven and cannot be subjected to scrutiny or scientific study without generating animosity. This is the domain of the lunatic fringe and their conspiracy theories.

 

(I have been listening to too much Red Rider, the phrase "lunatic fringe" is stuck in my head).

 

i love this comment.

 

it reminds me of the time you polluted these forums with wild-ass fallacies about how Vortex worked, and, when i asked you for evidence/proof to back up your nonsense, you did as you always do - retreated away citing some sort of "strawman" argument because someone dared to disagree with you.

 

you're a clown.

[ScytheBearer]

 

 

Unfortunately, that is all to true. And while there will always be plenty of people in said lunatic fringe espousing views and beliefs that make those of use with common sense go "Say what now?" What I mean by ignore is do not sink to their level, teach anyone who will listen why they are wrong, and when they come after you for saying things opposed to what they believe do not rise to the bait. I am as old as Star Wars. Literally it came out the year I was born. I have watched the world grow and regress in equal measure; and the most common truth that can be applied to most people is this. They cannot accept that what works for them, does not necessarily work for you. For some reason we arrogant humans always believe we know best. and yes I include myself in that because as much as I like to claim to be enlightened,

 

 

I am still human.

You have reached the distinction between objective truth and subjective truth.

Objective truth it true for everyone. Objective truth is arrived at via science and the scientific method. Ideas which have been tested and proven factual by multiple sources. Truths based in data and facts which are repeatable and measurable, unfettered by wishful thinking and opinion. This is where journalism is supposed to reside, but alas ... that brings us to subjective truth.

 

Subjective truth is true for oneself, and not necessarily for anyone else. This is the realm of religion and philosophy, opinion and "that fuzzy stuff". Ideals which are untested, and unproven and cannot be subjected to scrutiny or scientific study without generating animosity. This is the domain of the lunatic fringe and their conspiracy theories.

 

(I have been listening to too much Red Rider, the phrase "lunatic fringe" is stuck in my head).

 

i love this comment.

 

it reminds me of the time you polluted these forums with wild-ass fallacies about how Vortex worked, and, when i asked you for evidence/proof to back up your nonsense, you did as you always do - retreated away citing some sort of "strawman" argument because someone dared to disagree with you.

 

you're a clown.

 

 

I may be getting old and senile, so please remind me when, and what, I said about Vortex with links to posts.

 

 

[Guest deleted34304850]

do it yourself

[ScytheBearer]

do it yourself

So you're just another windbag with a keyboard. Shoot off your mouth, but when challenged, you fold like a cheap tent. Or are you a liar, fashioning your bovine excrement out of the ether.

 

Come on, step up. Prove you are more that just so much mouth flatulence.

Edited October 15, 2022 by ScytheBearer

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

do it yourself

So you're just another windbag with a keyboard. Shoot off your mouth, but when challenged, you fold like a cheap tent. Or are you a liar, fashioning your bovine excrement out of the ether.

 

Come on, step up. Prove you are more that just so much mouth flatulence.

 

you know your repetitious "ad hominem" and "strawman" retorts? The'y'd fit well into any reply I'd care to make for your post above, wouldn't you agree?

they're your words - your fallacies - or if i'm impersonating you, your "lies". you wrote them, so you know what you wrote - don't you? All you did above was troll 101 - misdirect. I ain't playing that game.

 

despite the verbosity of your replies, you're exactly the same as every other troll on the internet. Based on this and other replies you've made across these forums, you are also a world class hypocrite. Go get your attourney general mate and tell him someone is being nasty to you on the interwebs. Let's see what happens.

Edited October 15, 2022 by 1ae0bfb8

[JediMasterTallyn]

 

 

 

Many great minds have been drawn to communism. But many of those great minds lacked the understanding of human nature. Communism is simply not attainable unless you neuter and wipe out peoples identities and self interests,,,,

 

...Wait a minute

Communism was always meant as an ideal, not something actually completely attainable because it is something that has to happen organically. It has to happen from the bottom up, not the top down because the people carrying out the revolt are at the bottom of the economic ladder. It is not the holders of capital and land that are revolting to give it away.

 

Think of Star Trek as communism.

 

Communist regimes seek to create a political and socioeconomic environment that will support communism.

 

Communism is of course on the same political spectrum as fascism. They can be thought of as end points of the measure in the balance of power between public vs private interests.

 

The USA is a fascist state unfortunately, which means anything that is not fascist is viewed as extremism. The general public is largely unaware because the general public in the USA is never formally educated on sociology and political systems. This is expedient in keeping the status quo as you can imagine.

 

I do not believe you understand what fascist means, Nazi's are fascist, the KKK is fascist, the United States is inclusive, though admittedly more in theory than practice. But hey humans. The United States is a organic growing government, and the reason it works and everyone wants to live here (looks at the illegal and legal immigration numbers again to be sure.) Yeah EVERYBODY wants to live her is because it is inclusive. To truly embrace the ideal of the United States is to embrace the ideal that more than one idea or way of doing things can be right. Which offends most humans unfortunately. Fascism is most easily defined as "My way or your dead". Fascism needs a central figure, or ruler, Congress, social media and Gun nuts (see what I did there?) prevent that from happening in the United States.

 

The problem with being inclusive, with defending the freedom of speech is that you have to defend it for everyone or you are a hypocrite. So while I despise everything they stand for I will defend their right to say their ideals, I simply exercise my right to ignore everything they say. You want the hate to go away? Make people that hate irrelevant, ignore them, Do not respond to them block them on social media and encourage others to do the same. The more you respond to people like that the more traction you give their ideas. Calling someone a basket of deplorables because they said something you disagree with just means you gave them all the credibility. It makes you look small and petty and them look reasonable. The left won the social war through calm rational intelligent debate. Then forgot everything they learned in the 90's and became everything the used to claim they could not stand about the right.

 

How much credibility do you really have when you preach tolerance and yet are intolerant of anyone that disagrees with you even slightly?

 

 

And yes banning books happened before in 1930's Germany and yes that was fascism at its peak, being butthurt for being compared to that when that is exactly how you are acting is hypocrisy at it's finest. Erasing and denying history is not how you prevent it from happening again. Learning from it is, of course the hero's and leaders of the past come off looking bad by today's standards. We have grown as a society since then, imagine how we will look in 200 years how terrible will our descendance say we are when we are compared to their standards?

 

No, I understand it very well from a formal education perspective and an economic perspective.

 

Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism:

 

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism, Nation above all else. Fascist regimes are fond of iconography and patriotic symbols in order to create a nationalistic furor to leverage against an external imaginary threat which can be used as a scapegoat for bad public policy or the reason for national ills that are blamed instead the result of bad public policy.

 

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights – Because of fear of enemies and the need for security; people in fascist regimes are typically persuaded that human rights can be ignored because of “need.” Fascist regimes work to deteriorate rights because they seek to create an authoritarian government.

 

3. Identification of Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause – The population is rallied into a patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, religious, ethnic or political factions are demonized. Immigrants are blamed, different groups within the population are demonized.

 

4. Supremacy of the Military – Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of public funding and the domestic agenda is neglected. The USA spends more on military than the next top 11 spending countries combined. The USA is also the largest arms dealer in the world selling billions in arms every year. The profit of these sales are the rewards reaped by private interests at the expense of the taxpayer.

 

5. Rampant Sexism – Governments of Fascist Regimes are almost exclusively male-dominated. Gender roles become more rigid. Banning abortion, sexism, making women's healthcare scarce etc are all tactics used to create division within the society. The more fractures that can be manufactured the better.

 

6. Controlled Mass Media – Sometimes the media is controlled directly by the government, sometimes it is controlled by regulation, sometimes it is controlled by proxy through corporations. In the USA 13 billionaires control 90% of what American hear, see, read and watch on television. The equal time clause was repealed by Reagan and many attempts to reinstate it have failed.

 

7. Obsession with National Security – Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government to control the masses. This is expedient in creating a police state as right to privacy is slowly eroded in the name of "safety". The USA spends more than the top 11 spending countries combined and the military is a discretionary budget item which always increases no matter what while public infrastructure crumbles.

 

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in Fascist Regimes tend to use the most common religion as a tool to manipulate public opinion.

 

9. Corporate Power is Protected at All costs – The Industrial and Business Aristocracy of a fascist nation are often the ones who put government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial relationship. Government becomes the proxy for corporate power. In the USA this is a major feature of fascism and a primary objective of any fascist state. The corruption of public government by private interests to create a symbiotic relationship in order to enrich the state and private interests by looting the tax coffers. The once public institution of government becomes the proxy for private interests.

 

10. The Power of Labor is Suppressed – Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed. Corporate power must ascend and labor must be disenfranchised and lose all power to influence the price of labor. In the USA wages have been stagnant since 1970 taking inflation in to account while the GDP and productivity have skyrocketed. CEO pay from 1978 to 2019 has risen over 1300% while wages for the rank and file have stagnated.

 

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and The Arts – Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education and academia. This is expedient to the fascist agenda which seeks to elevate ideology over factual debate. Ideology, iconography, slogans, memes all rise above the interest in factual data.

 

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment – Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power over the population to enforce laws. The USA incarcerates over 2 million and over 11 million churn through the "justice" system every year. 1 in 5 people incarcerated in the world are incarcerated in the USA. Over 400,000 people languish in jails that have yet to be convicted of a crime and are "presumed innocent until proven guilty". The infrastructure to support such widespread incarceration generate billions for private interests.

 

 

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption – Government is filled with groups of friends, associates, relatives who appoint each other to government positions.

 

14. Fraudulent Elections – Elections in Fascist regimes are a complete sham or compromised and feature smear campaigns, sensationalism and sometimes assassination of candidates. Fascists continually seek to cast doubt on the validity of elections. The overall objective being the deterioration of voting rights so poll taxes, voting only on certain days, in person voting only etc are used to discourage public participation in the political process.

 

 

 

ok wow .... hmmm you responded to my first sentence only did you bother to read the rest or just TLDR it because the first sentence called you out? But here we go.....

 

1. Every nation in the world, and its leaders does this at some point and by that definition almost any display of patriotism can be misconstrued as potential fascism. Too Broad.

 

2. Does not apply; the United States has made laws that make this an impossibility, most of them in my life time. The problem here in not the system it is the lunatic fringe of one side or the other screaming "You're a Nazi" or "You're a communist" at those that disagree with them instead of sitting down and having a civilized debate.

 

3.Blame the Mainstream Media, if they stop pointing the camera at the worst of society all the time and instead at those that try to make a difference things would not seem as bad. But good people don't make ratings Sex, drugs, murder, and controversy do. The biggest issue is this. In their hurry to report something first they stopped checking their facts, and when they end up wrong they bury the retraction to keep credulity.

 

4.We have the biggest and best guns. Boo hoo. After looking at what other countries have down with thier Military might I think I like the USA Being the biggest dog in the yard more than any one else. A good point but until Humanity learns to get along better I don't see this changing.

 

5. This is a work in progress more women and others are being elected all the time. Civil rights movement done peaceful take time, you other choice is revolution. Considering who has all the guns in the United States lets not entertain that option? Unless you want to go back to the 1950's?

 

BEGIN RANT: As for the abortion, blame partial birth abortion. That murder of a baby in New York was a bridge to far. Even Pro choice people I know agreed with that stance it should NEVER have happened. So when you do not get to be upset when the other side of the coin goes ham on you and makes is so you can never starve a new born in a hospital again. BTW I am neutral about abortions I while I agree there are medical, including mental health, reasons for them. The I like having unprotected sex, but I don't want a baby abortion I am against. And to be honest was the biggest sticking point with most people anyway. Grow up and take responsibility. You don't want to use a condom? That is a you problem. Accept the consequences.

 

END RANT.

 

6.LOL yeah ok if the government controls the mainstream media explain to me please how they treated Donald Trump? Unless you are saying that the other side are the fascist?

 

7. This is a repeat of 4. not a new defining thing at least how you phrased it. I will answer anyway; in todays world of terrorism and suicide bombers I like not having to worry about the pizza place I enjoy being blown up. Ask Israel how they feel about nation security them call them fascist see how that works for you.

 

8.The first amendment to the US Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Wrong again.

 

9. that capitalism money is power. try again.

 

10. again capitalism, also if the government were to step in and say "We are passing a law that say all employees of any business must pay X amount legally it hurts small businesses and consumers more than corporations. Congress gets this if those idiots can grasp this simple concept why can't you?

 

11.The United States even has FEDERAL GRANTS. Money that does not need to be pain back, for students from other countries to go to college here. Wrong again. also: U.S. Commission of Fine Arts National Endowment for the Arts

 

 

12.Grow up. I prefer criminal behind bars, and not stealing things raping women and beating children thanks. Crime and punishment is a sign of civilization not fascism.

 

13. LOL ALLLLLLLL governments are corrupt brah; give a human power watch how fast it corrupts him or her. Try again also CAPITALISM NOTTTTT FASCISM!!!!!

 

14.The loosing side always feels slighted and like they got a raw deal, are the elections in the United Stated full of Fraud most likely is a symptom of C A P I T A L I S M. actually it is a symptom humans having power but anyway, Their is not a country in the world that has elections that there is not some type of fraud happening somewhere. does this make it right no. do I wish it did not happen yes. Do I think it happens as much as the mainstream media want me to believe it does no mostly because they are a bunch of whiners who cry when things don't go there way.

 

 

By your little list here I can make a case for EVERY government in the world to be fascist, The definitions are too broad and easy to point out the flaws in what ever system they are applied to to be able to go "SEE SEE I TOLD YOU THEY WERE FASCIST!!!!" besides I have debunked each of them one at a time.

 

 

So again I saw you do not understand what fascism is.

 

Tell you poli-sci professor he just got schooled by a retired truck driver.

[JediMasterTallyn]

 

 

do it yourself

So you're just another windbag with a keyboard. Shoot off your mouth, but when challenged, you fold like a cheap tent. Or are you a liar, fashioning your bovine excrement out of the ether.

 

Come on, step up. Prove you are more that just so much mouth flatulence.

 

you know your repetitious "ad hominem" and "strawman" retorts?

they're your words - your fallacies - or if i'm impersonating you, your "lies". you wrote them, so you know what you wrote - don't you?

 

despite the verbosity of your replies, you're exactly the same as every other troll on the internet.

 

 

 

I am not trying to get involved here, but I don't understand. How is Scythbear being a troll by asking you to provide proof? Just curious.

 

The two of you can continue with the name calling and proving the other right by attacking them instead of debating on the points you disagree with; much easier to spew hate and virtual than intelligent rational answers anyway.

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

 

 

do it yourself

So you're just another windbag with a keyboard. Shoot off your mouth, but when challenged, you fold like a cheap tent. Or are you a liar, fashioning your bovine excrement out of the ether.

 

Come on, step up. Prove you are more that just so much mouth flatulence.

 

you know your repetitious "ad hominem" and "strawman" retorts?

they're your words - your fallacies - or if i'm impersonating you, your "lies". you wrote them, so you know what you wrote - don't you?

 

despite the verbosity of your replies, you're exactly the same as every other troll on the internet.

 

 

 

I am not trying to get involved here, but I don't understand. How is Scythbear being a troll by asking you to provide proof? Just curious.

 

The two of you can continue with the name calling and proving the other right by attacking them instead of debating on the points you disagree with; much easier to spew hate and virtual than intelligent rational answers anyway.

 

i just like poking trolls every so often. no more, no less.