Giving up on Vortex for now

[Arthmoor]

The issue is again, creating rules isn't as hard as you are making it out to be. It's not really anymore tougher to do than dragging and dropping. You can literally do everything you could previously it's just done a little different. And I cannot stress this enough. Why is everyone complaining about this when Vortex has the capability for extensions? If you really want to do it the old way, no one is going to stop you. An extension is likely going to be made by someone at some point and probably fairly quickly. So why keep complaining about it? This has been answered over and over and over again. It's like everyone wants to put their own input into the argument by just saying the same exact thing the last person did who had already been answered.

 

You say things are not being approached properly and yet he literally created a software that can be customized. Seriously, do any of you hear yourselves? It's not like he is forcing you, he himself is just not going to do it. He doesn't care if someone else does though. Go ahead and make the extension. Jeez, it's like a lot of you don't have ears or something.

You know, we heard you the first 50 times you decided to comment on this. We get it. You consider LOOT to be infallible and the current (it isn't old, can't be by definition) method of sorting load order to be bad. Rather than try and have us convince you of the value of the status quo, you have failed to explain why you think switching to doing things exclusively using LOOT rules is supposed to be the better system. From where I sit, that's simply not the case. It isn't the current userbase that needs to be convinced the current methods are wrong. YOU need to convince us the new way is the right way. You've failed to do this.

 

Assuming someone will produce an extension is naive at best, because every time that expectation becomes reality, it never happens. People just use what works. We are not all programmers. "Customize it yourself" is the battlecry of the arrogant IMO. Mozilla has been singing that same song for years and it's cost them nearly their entire market share. Linux in general will never be adopted due to similar elitist attitudes. The masses you claim to be catering to are not the ones who are going to provide you this function. Those of us who could are using what already provides our needs for us now so you're just driving the very talent you need away. To me this reeks of the Microsoft way of doing things. Force people to adopt a new standard and then drive out everyone else who wants to stick to the current one when it would be trivial for the developers to just include basic functionality. The userbase does not need to be protected from itself. Coddling people is not the answer.

 

Either Tannin wants honest feedback or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then I'd suggest he just come out and say so so those of us trying to provide it to him can go do other things.

[Tannin42]

First off, let me just say that I have not used Vortex myself, so if you don't care to hear what I have to say you can stop reading now. Or if you don't play Bethesda games, since those are the only ones I use mod managers for.

First of all, let me thank you for writing a rational and friendly post, I know that you too feel strongly about this topic.

I'm going to reply to your entire post, but I will shorten quotes to keep things readable.

 

It seems to me there are 2 different issues being discussed here yet treated as the same thing.

This post was, fortunately, mostly about plugin ordering, but yeah, install/asset ordering is a whole separate topic that deserves its own discussion.

 

The installers tab is where your installation ordering is handled.

Vortex actually treats this differently from Wrye Bash/MO as well, which I why it's also a rather hot topic, but I'll leave it at that to keep this thread on topic.

 

The Mods tab is where sorting your ESMs and ESPs takes place. ... The problem is, given the number of repeatedly posted "help me" threads, the lucky few are a tiny minority.

I agree, and in my head the way Vortex works should alleviate this problem and reduce the number of load order problems.

From my understanding, and it's certainly possible my understanding is incomplete, Vortex should be helping mod authors with this.

 

Currently the community has a number of ways to address these conflicts, ... The ability to simply and quickly drag one plugin above or below another and have the underlying plugins.txt file make the adjustment.

See, but this is my first question (and it's an honest question I'd be happy to get an answer to): How is this at all a way to solve conflicts?

Yes, it's the technical way you rearrange plugins so they load in a valid order but how is a beginner supposed to know which plugins he needs to rearrange?

The base mechanism (drag&drop) is simple but it doesn't provide the knowledge to know what you're supposed to do with it so that's not simple.

Speaking in one of my stupid analogies: Paint is a very simple tool that's so basic it's included with windows. But that doesn't mean it's the best way to draw, say, a technical diagram,

a more sophisticated, specialised application might be better.

 

There are also tools, mainly BOSS for Oblivion and LOOT for everything afterward, that will cut down on the process of resolving conflicts via load order.

The only problem of course is that using either of these tools requires rules to be generated by someone, whether it's the user or the list maintainers.

It is by no objective measure the easier way to handle this.

Objectivity is pretty hard anyway because all users looking at this now have pre-existing knowledge and experience, whether something is simpler depends

massively on where you're coming from.

I don't think there can be an objectively superior way.

 

Plus, LOOT's own author has repeatedly said that LOOT is only the BEGINNING of load order, not the END as Vortex is attempting to make it.

Next question (again, honestly asking, hoping for reply): Why can't it be? I mean, sure, in the current state you may have to set user rules (which you can do directly from the vortex ui via drag&drop),

but in what situation would loot with the correct user rules be insufficient to do your load order?

I've been using loot for all my load ordering since it was released, boss before that. I too have had load orders with roughly 200 plugins and I've never

needed more than two or three user rules, so from my experience it works perfectly fine.

But again, I don't assume my experience is representative for everyone, which is why I'd be happy to hear others.

 

I find myself wondering if WrinklyNinja was even consulted on the impact this will cause for LOOT maintainers.

Why would it have an impact on him at this time?

We have considered adding a way to submit new rules from inside Vortex but it's not been implemented and nowhere inside Vortex do we even suggest people should take

their problems with the sorting to the loot maintainers.

Obviously if we do go forward with a rule-suggestion system we would coordinate with WrinklyNinja and make sure only curated rules get even sent to him.

 

Also, there's no guarantee that submissions to the LOOT master lists will be accurate and universally applicable.

Totally agree, they would have to be curated.

 

This idea that the masses are too dumb to grasp the concept of load order, conflict resolution, and how to deal with it is completely bogus.

I didn't call anyone dumb, but are you going to disagree that some users may not have the experience to do it?

 

One need only look as far as the console modding community. XB1 users in particular. Since they have only the game UI to rely on, they've come up with a detailed load ordering template that could be considered analogous to LOOT in some way, but it's all organzied by categories based on what the mods do.

This should be easy to replicated in loot and could thus be automated as well. We could have a masterlist (fork) that uses global priorities to replicate the

plugin groups from the template and then use rules only for the exceptions. Loot would still enforce stuff like esm < esl < esp.

It would be interested to see if that actually created better/more pleasant load orders than the current master list.

 

Instead of clamoring for Bethesda to protect them from themselves with some automated feature, they used trial and error to figure things out and come up with solutions.

Ok, this requires a correction, because I hear it far too often. This part sounds like the loot/vortex approach took away control or was there "to protect people from themselves".

This is simply not true, you can control the load order with rules and priorities. This is not a restricted mode in which you can't do something you could do in other managers.

It is simply a different means of control that plays better with loot because you can repeat the ordering at any time without losing your manual adjustments.

 

The real question is just: Does the amount of work loot takes off you by automating most of the load order offset the amount of work that's added because setting a rule is less convenient than

putting the plugin in place directly.

 

None of this is about whether you should have control (at least based on my understanding).

You have, with Vortex, the ability to control your load order in any detail you want, it is just more convenient the more "pragmatic" your adjustments are.

 

Insisting that everyone learn LOOT and how to set sorting rules isn't the way forward.

We're not, ideally loots masterlist will be extended to the point where the majority of users will never even have to touch the plugin order and still get a

perfectly fine, stable, load order.

And if you do want to go in-depth then "you set up a rule "a after b" so that a gets loaded after b" is reaaally not that complicated imho.

 

when the inevitable happens and people show up expecting me to have LOOT rules ready for their consumption when I don't even use LOOT myself.

It doesn't have to be you, any user can contribute rules to loot and once they did you won't get the question at all.

The masterlist is a wonderful shared community knowledge.

 

I dare say that LOOT can't really help me improve this and it's not wrong that I prefer some general category ordering for the mods I use in my games.

No one said it's wrong. I'm not saying the way Vortex is working is the only "right" way to do it. It would just be extremely inconvenient, considering

development, maintenance and UI to have multiple approaches in Vortex and I felt we should go with only one officially supported approach, especially considering Vortex does support extensions

and will thus allow others to add what they feel is missing.

And I felt that loot based ordering is the most likely to work well for both beginners and advanced users, especially considering that our competition today

isn't just wrye bash and MO but also steam workshop, bethnet and mod drop.

 

Manual load order sorting is such a basic and fundamental feature that outside of this thread you have loads of people facepalming over and over about the decision to remove it.

Nothing was "removed", Vortex is a new application, it never had this feature.

 

The masses are not as dumb as you think.

I never called anyone dumb. I find this repeated allegation pretty insulting in an otherwise well written post.

 

This isn't at all like the catastrophe that was BSA unpacking.

Isn't it? If your argument is: Users know what they are doing and if they consider a feature essential and "basic" the devs shouldn't patronize them,

why wouldn't I implement BSA unpacking? Who are you and me to tell users what they should and shouldn't be doing?

 

 

Finally, just let me say something here again: I did not leave out manual ordering because I think people are incapable of doing it. I left it out because I think that

rule-based and manual ordering are two ways to achieve the same thing that don't mix, because the rule based ordering would always overwrite the manual ordering.

So realistically you will stop using loot the moment you have done any serious manual adjustments, meaning all mods you install afterwards you have to

order manually, even if loot would be able to handle them fine.

And for one thing, I'd rather not invest the time implementing a second way to achieve the same, there are plenty of other features I could be implementing in the same

time (time is limited, the list of feature wishes is practically infinite) and I'd like to avoid feature creep that makes the UI too complex.

Even if we "hid" manual ordering behind an "advanced" button that button would still be on the ui, we would have to explain to the user what it does so he can judge

if he is advanced, tutorials would have to mention it and so on.

Not a big thing for this one button but if we do it every time someone comes up with a feature that is "well, wouldn't hurt to have it, right?" the UI turns into a mess.

 

Again, all this is based on my base assumption that loot with user rules can be made to provide a stable load order for both beginners and advanced users with a reduced amount of work.

[Tannin42]

Assuming someone will produce an extension is naive at best, because every time that expectation becomes reality, it never happens. People just use what works.

Do they? In a modding community? This entire community is about people not being happy with what has been provided to them and have the wish to extend it.

 

Linux in general will never be adopted due to similar elitist attitudes

Linux runs on almost 90% of Smartphones today. It is used heavily (have no stats) on servers and embedded systems everywhere. It may actually be the single most relevant os

on the market (considering there are more android phones than PCs and iOS devices combined) because it is flexible and extensible.

 

Force people to adopt a new standard and then drive out everyone else who wants to stick to the current one when it would be trivial for the developers to just include basic functionality.

Forcing people to adopt a new standard is what you have to do with every new standard. Show me any single case in history where there was no resistance to a new standard? Heck, people cried

over the loss of their trusty typewriters when PCs came along.

That's not saying what Vortex does has to be the new standard, I'm just saying some resistance doesn't convince me I'm wrong.

 

And no, manual ordering isn't actually trivial because even in a manual system people would expect the system to correctly enforce masters to go before regular plugins, light masters to go

after esm but before esp and the hard-coded plugins (including CC) to be shown in the correct order at the correct index.

 

I'm not saying this feature is too hard or anything but it would cost time that I could use for other features. I guess what I am saying is: I need to be convinced that manual ordering is

actually more important than all the other things I could do with the same time and "people are facepalming" isn't enough.

[Ethreon]

This way Vortex is doing things is not going to change. It's best to just come out and say you aren't going to add the manual sorting or change the current sorting way and just remove useless comments (unless you have done that already, I stopped reading when this became a school debate with the modpack guy trying to tell everyone how he's right). Otherwise this will just drag on without any advance on either side, and with little to no useful data. If there will be a plugin doing what some of us want, maybe we'll use. If not, there's other choices and we're not forced to pick vortex or else.

[Tannin42]

It's best to just come out and say you aren't going to add the manual sorting or change the current sorting way

I did. On the very first day of release in the known issues post. That's what I've been criticised for, because giving an honest, direct statement is apparently "dismissive".

 

That is to say: We have no plans at this time to add it, but I have an open mind, I'm fully capable of changing my opinion if I hear a good argument.

[Ethreon]

 

It's best to just come out and say you aren't going to add the manual sorting or change the current sorting way

I did. On the very first day of release in the known issues post. That's what I've been criticised for, because giving an honest, direct statement is apparently "dismissive".

 

That is to say: We have no plans at this time to add it, but I have an open mind, I'm fully capable of changing my opinion if I hear a good argument.

 

 

Then most of this thread is pointless.

[d81]

You can keep digging at me if you want, but I apologize, again. Accept it or don't, I already feel embarrassed enough.

 

The reason I used the words I did and came to the conclusions I have is because I did what I always do when searching for more information. I'm sure it's a tactic used by many, and may be contributing to those insults being hurled your way.

 

I re-read the alpha release announcement to make sure I didn't miss anything.

I came here, because this is the only place I figured I could find anything out.

I read the known issues in their entirety, did not see anything about manual load order, definitely not a rationale. Maybe I overlooked it?

I searched for Nexus employees posts, because they were the most likely source of real info.

I searched for Dark0ne's posts to see if he had anything to say, he didn't.

I searched you to see what you were saying, as far as I know you are next in line.

I'll just say, rather than collect all your posts, that they appeared very out of order for a representative. Perhaps I did not fully contextualize them, but I am not the representative.

The more I read the more mad and disappointed I became, which was stupid in hindsight and should not have happened, but it did.

I am not using the word "dismissive" out of meanness, and there is a reason for that protecting the masses barb you don't understand, along with some of those other insults.

Which lead to my toxic assertion. I may have contributed, but created...I'm skeptical.

 

But it's over for now, I uninstalled Vortex for the time being. Now that I have that rationale (which I wish was in a thread started by you to begin with) I'll wait and see what the future holds.

[HalfLazy]

Guys... I'll tell you what I see, without circumlocutions, then do whatever you like to...

No offense, I'm just being honest.

 

Facts:

1. Were a Modding comunity (people who add things to games because weren't totally satisfied with the base games)
2. We have a fresh new tool that is moddable itself (extensions)
3. There's no restriction about modding it
4. Tannin isn't working for any of US (we aren't pay him)
5. This Tool is a GIFT (and not from Tannin, but from the Nexus), not a commission

 

Assumption based on the Facts:

Manual sorting is going to happend sooner or later by *SOMEONE*, just as we all known that boobs would be added to Skyrim

 

 

Conclusion:

This post isn't about which kind of order Vortex has or would be better.

This is about people that dosen't get what they want when they want it.

 

Example:

This whole post it's like sending a protest to Bethesda because they didn't added Boobs to the vanilla game (with the difference that you payed Bethesda for Fallout 4, but as 'end-product' not 'in development')

or like people that sent that protest for FarCry 5 because they didn't like the incipit of the story.

 

In a "normal" software development you'll have only a tiny FAQ, not a direct line with the programmer and, even if I like the attitude of Tannin about getting an eye here on the forum and respond to people, I'm stating to think that he's wasting his time here.

 

 

So, really, can we just stop with this? Some people want manual order: Ok, GOT IT! You have been listened.

 

Were searching BUGS and GLITCH -> This is the meaning of this tests.

We -could- add some suggestion of improvement but as EXTRA and not with 20 pages topic on a SINGLE SUBJECT!

 

 

One last note:

Any of you actually stopped and think that Tannin already have to deal with a pile of feedback from 1000 users (let's say, as example: 3 feedback a day from 1000 people for 9 days)?

Stuck him to read all that crap and forcing him to repeat himself will cause only three things:

Slow the progress of development (and also the develop of a thrid party extension for whatever you want)

Reduce the amount of patience (So don't be surprised if Tanning dosen't respond like a saccharine assistance operator from EA)

Reduce the interaction with the community in the future (and doing all by himself because there's no gain here)

 

 

And sorry for the wall of text. I've tried to be exaustive.

[Tannin42]

You can keep digging at me if you want, but I apologize, again.

Sorry, I didn't mean to dig at you again, I just wanted to demonstrate how different people want different things from me. Some want to discuss the reasons

for the decisions, some want to convince me to change it, yet others see it as misleading to have the debate when a decision has already been made and is

unlikely to change.

I can't make everone happy and that's frustrating, but it's none of your fault or anyone elses.

 

I'll just say this again: I don't like to say "never". I don't think a discussion is pointless but I will say here and now that convincing me on this won't be easy.

Whether you want to have a discussion under these circumstances is up to any individual, just keep it civil please.

And we should really stop the meta discussion about the discussion. Many were unhappy with how it went, rightfully though, the best we can do now is try to get it back on track.

[HellKnightX88]

 

Assuming someone will produce an extension is naive at best, because every time that expectation becomes reality, it never happens. People just use what works.

Seeing how much back-and-forth discussion this has caused I'm pretty sure this fuctionality will be implemented by someone eventually. Heck, I'm waiting for Vortex to get released along with some documentation so I can take a look at the extensions system because I have a list of things that I think would be beneficial in speeding certain things up (tags) when it comes to ordering and relaying information to the user so they can have a clearer picture of what overwrites what, what they have installed etc. I plan on posting this list here eventually (today maybe?) but I constantly add and remove things to it because I find better solutions or things that just don't make sense because vortex already offers similar functionality.

 

And one of those things has been manual ordering, started thinking how would the logic of that would work, how the data is saved and how it could be made to play nice with loot ordering. What I'm thinking is something along the lines of a checkbox for each esp that when ticked is activated for manual ordering and what this does is automatically set a loot rule for this plugin so it loads after the one before it. And then when you drag this plugin around your load order it would just update that rule. This rule would also be updated when you remove the ESP it depends on (or maybe not, have to test it out). Just thinking out loud.

 

Two things that I really want are tagging mods (so I can get more specific with filters) and content icons similar to what MO has so I know when a mod includes an ESP , scrips, meshes etc.

 

Anyway, my point is I think you're underestimating people's willingness to provide these kind of extensions expecially if it's something that creates a lot of debate. I think the extensions thing is potentially the best thing about vortex