Managing the Load Order...

[SkunkMonkey]

It's alpha software and you are complaining about lack of documentation? You do realize that the lack of documentation at this stage was intentional? Tannin wanted to see what people were able to figure out easily vs finding things difficult. That's valuable information to a developer.

 

Documentation is one of the last things created in software development because things change and at this early stage it can change drastically. Unless you want to be constantly rewriting and throwing out entire sections that suddenly no longer match the software, there's no point in writing it.

[euph]

 

 

 

Moving mods around is absolutely needed for me. I merge a lot of mods and I need to move the merged esp around to avoid CTD. If I try to load a game with Vortex's load order, I only get CTD's in the face. This is the primary reason of why I don't use Vortex.

 

May NMM have its faults but I prefer to have control over my load order than some algorithm that thinks it knows better than me what I'm doing with my game.

 

I'll start using Vortex as my main mod manager when I get back control over what mods are doing.

 

Funny, I do the same thing, have several merged patches and I have no problems positioning them in my load order exactly where I want using priorities.

 

People have become so accustomed to doing something a specific way to the point that they are unwilling to learn a potentially better and more powerful to do it. Give Vortex a chance, take the time to learn a new way to organize your plugins and you may just find that you like it better. Also understand that a lot of functionality may be outright missing but that does not mean it won't be implemented later.

 

 

Why have it simple if you can have it complicated...

 

I have better things to do in my life than spend hours managing dependencies one by one and giving all the mods, priorities on LOOT. And then pray I don't CTD and have to do all this crap again.

 

This not to mention that the "great" Vortex didn't manage to find NMM (0.64.2) because I have NMM installed in a custom folder and I had to spend hours installing all the mods. Why? Because there's no option to look for where NMM is installed. Pure genius right there.

 

Vortex? Maybe in a year I'll look at it again.

 

 

I'm thinking maybe you are better off avoiding alpha state software and should stick to fully released products.

 

 

 

I'm that thinking maybe you are better remembering who is the main target for Vortex and what it is replacing.

 

This isn't a tool only to be used by veteran modders/players that know their way around things like we do. I'm looking at this tool from the POV of a random player that just wants to pop his mods, move mods around a bit to get them to work and go play.

 

Vortex as it is right now, only caters to MO2 and Wrye users + those who have the knowledge to deal with dependencies and setting up priorities in LOOT. I can do all that, a lot of us can do all that but it's a hassle and time consuming.

 

Vortex is supposed to replace NMM and who uses NMM the most? The normal, average user that wouldn't know how to manually install those mods. They don't care and don't have to care about priorities and dependencies.

 

If Vortex is supposed to just cater to players with deep knowledge (aka niche), then it's better that they focus on improving NMM instead of releasing this thing. MO2 and Wrye already cater to us, we don't need a 3rd tool that caters to a niche instead of the general user.

[SkunkMonkey]

Sure, anyone can add a few mods and play just fine, but if you are planning on installing a whole truckload, you are going to need some advanced knowledge on how to deal with conflicts. No mod manager will ever be created that can seamlessly add 150 mods to a game or know how to deal with the myriad of conflicts that arise.

 

You are also complaining about the difficulty in using *alpha* stage software. A lot of functionality and ease of use features will *not* be present at this stage. It is unfair to compare Vortex with several months of development to utilities that have been around for years. If you are looking for a complete replacement for NMM/MO, then currently Vortex is not for you.

[euph]

Sure, anyone can add a few mods and play just fine, but if you are planning on installing a whole truckload, you are going to need some advanced knowledge on how to deal with conflicts. No mod manager will ever be created that can seamlessly add 150 mods to a game or know how to deal with the myriad of conflicts that arise.

 

You are also complaining about the difficulty in using *alpha* stage software. A lot of functionality and ease of use features will *not* be present at this stage. It is unfair to compare Vortex with several months of development to utilities that have been around for years. If you are looking for a complete replacement for NMM/MO, then currently Vortex is not for you.

 

I'm tired of your condescending tone, talking to me and others as if we don't know what we're doing. Also good to see what you feel about players with less knowledge than you.

 

Feedback is feedback and if you don't like the feedback, deal with it.

 

You're attacking anyone who doesn't sing praises to Vortex. Grow up and learn to deal with criticism.

 

Done with you, good day.

[piperman123]

 

• None necessary functionality should not be a priority for alpha software. And changing the install load order more than vortex already does is exactly that, unnecessary.
• I'm surprised some of the community is so adamant about not changing how they do things, I thought that was exactly what modders were about??

 

What you consider necessary and what others consider necessary are not necessarily the same thing.

 

For instance, I consider changing the way we manage our load order to be unnecessary. I find it interesting how you presume to declare whether or not a certain feature is necessary, and then sarcastically remark about people complaining about a change they clearly don't consider necessary.

 

There are a lot of changes that this software needs in order for me to use it. The ability to sort my load order by dragging individual mods where they should be, as we've been able to do for years in NMM and MO, is one of those changes. I'd consider it necessary.

 

 

Ok, maybe I was unclear. By necessary I meant something that is necessary to provided the functionality that is required to get things working. You don't 'need' to be able to have multiple ways of doing the same thing. I already said I agree that it should probably be added later on. And you don't need to to add dependencies in loot, this has been mentioned a few times in the thread. You can use priorities, which does exactly as everyone is asking and doesn't take long to use at all. Everyone is just having a tiff because it's not drag and drop like they're used to.

 

I've noticed that Vortex doesn't deal with BSA's yet, which is at least somewhat of a problem. I guess this is the real reason people are complaining however, if Vortex takes MO's approach of providing the option of extracting all bsa's in the order they're loaded, this would show all conflicts and you'd then be able to use the conflict resolution it provides now for everything.

 

Or, and it sounds like this may be what they're planning, they can make Vortex capable of scanning bsa's and work much the same way, as long as it also warns about loose files being conflict winners with bsa contents regardless of ordering.

 

And lastly, I agree everyone has the right to their opinion and I'm sure someone will disagree with what I'm trying to class as necessary. Doens't mean they're right though, nor does it mean I am. But I'm sure you can see why a developer wouldn't add a new feature when the functionality is already there just implemented with a different (newer and arguably better) approach. If the points I mentioned above are implemented that will make the approach they're using now more user friendly and provide the same functionality, people will just need to learn to adapt slightly. So I'll concede that the functionality isn't all there yet, it would just be daft to re-implement old approaches and scrap the new stuff they've added and are hopefully still working on.

 

@ sopmac45

So you've figured it out then?

If you already have rules for a mod when you click the red bolt on another it'll show an "i" in a circle near it, that means that mod already has a rule for the mod your editing. If you add conflicting rules Vortex will tell you so. I got confused by that too at first, 'till I noticed that symbol and realized it was only on a mod I had just edited. Also, hover over that symbol and I think it tells you.

Edited March 13, 2018 by piperman123

[HomicidalGrouse]

 

Everyone is just having a tiff because it's not drag and drop like they're used to.

 

 

And they're used to it because it's how everyone has managed mods with pretty much every bit of software that allows you to manage mods since people have been modding. Hell, Bethesda's own load order managers, whether you use the one in previous games' launchers, or the Mods screen they implemented in FO4 and SSE, are all based on allowing you to simply move mods where you need them to be. It's the most basic way of implementing load order management, and has become the de facto way of doing so.

 

I'd wager the way most people do it, is they install their mods, they run LOOT, they check to see if there are any glaring issues with the way LOOT has ordered things, they make the necessary corrections, and then they play. The people who care to take the extra step of creating rules and messing with priorities for LOOT are undoubtedly a much smaller subset of these users.

 

And with Vortex, these users are losing the option of that "making necessary corrections" step in an easy and familiar manner, instead being forced to take that extra step that I'd bet actual money the vast majority of users have never bothered doing before. On top of all this, I've yet to see an actual valid reason as to why this change has been made other than "well it's better to do it this way".

 

There's a large number of people who consider Mod Organizer to be the better way of managing mods, and yet it's an admittedly more complicated/advanced tool for management than the majority of people are willing to use, as Tannin himself admits.

 

So if we're not comfortable forcing the average user to use a more advanced tool like Mod Organizer to manage their mods... why the heck are we comfortable forcing those same users to use a more advanced method of load order management?

[sopmac45]

 

 

• None necessary functionality should not be a priority for alpha software. And changing the install load order more than vortex already does is exactly that, unnecessary.
• I'm surprised some of the community is so adamant about not changing how they do things, I thought that was exactly what modders were about??

 

What you consider necessary and what others consider necessary are not necessarily the same thing.

 

For instance, I consider changing the way we manage our load order to be unnecessary. I find it interesting how you presume to declare whether or not a certain feature is necessary, and then sarcastically remark about people complaining about a change they clearly don't consider necessary.

 

There are a lot of changes that this software needs in order for me to use it. The ability to sort my load order by dragging individual mods where they should be, as we've been able to do for years in NMM and MO, is one of those changes. I'd consider it necessary.

 

 

Ok, maybe I was unclear. By necessary I meant something that is necessary to provided the functionality that is required to get things working. You don't 'need' to be able to have multiple ways of doing the same thing. I already said I agree that it should probably be added later on. And you don't need to to add dependencies in loot, this has been mentioned a few times in the thread. You can use priorities, which does exactly as everyone is asking and doesn't take long to use at all. Everyone is just having a tiff because it's not drag and drop like they're used to.

 

I've noticed that Vortex doesn't deal with BSA's yet, which is at least somewhat of a problem. I guess this is the real reason people are complaining however, if Vortex takes MO's approach of providing the option of extracting all bsa's in the order they're loaded, this would show all conflicts and you'd then be able to use the conflict resolution it provides now for everything.

 

Or, and it sounds like this may be what they're planning, they can make Vortex capable of scanning bsa's and work much the same way, as long as it also warns about loose files being conflict winners with bsa contents regardless of ordering.

 

And lastly, I agree everyone has the right to their opinion and I'm sure someone will disagree with what I'm trying to class as necessary. Doens't mean they're right though, nor does it mean I am. But I'm sure you can see why a developer wouldn't add a new feature when the functionality is already there just implemented with a different (newer and arguably better) approach. If the points I mentioned above are implemented that will make the approach they're using now more user friendly and provide the same functionality, people will just need to learn to adapt slightly. So I'll concede that the functionality isn't all there yet, it would just be daft to re-implement old approaches and scrap the new stuff they've added and are hopefully still working on.

 

@ sopmac45

So you've figured it out then?

If you already have rules for a mod when you click the red bolt on another it'll show an "i" in a circle near it, that means that mod already has a rule for the mod your editing. If you add conflicting rules Vortex will tell you so. I got confused by that too at first, 'till I noticed that symbol and realized it was only on a mod I had just edited. Also, hover over that symbol and I think it tells you.

 

 

 

Figured out to a certain point to be honest not completely .... I do admit that I hate the fact that I can fix it by trial and error till I got not more conflicting errors and that is not what I want .... I need to know HOW and WHY .... so I would know exactly what to do to fix any conflict between my mods ... the part I learned was explained by a nice guy in this thread; basically when you click on a mod, let' say : SMIM .. to resolve conflicts with one more ( let's get a simple and easy sample ), if you choose "load before" means that SMIM will load before the other showing and the latter will take precedent in the load order.

 

In the beginning, I was confused, I thought that the mod beside that small window where you either choose : load before, load after, etc, etc, etc, .... will be the one either : loading before, loading after, etc, etc, etc ..... but it's not ... is backward ... so, that part was explained as I said and now I do understand it. However, it is not explained anywhere and that bothers me. Why asking questions when we could have simple explanations added to Vortex that could speed up the process or learning it ?

 

Now, again, I do admit that I when one mod is conflicting with another 6, things start to get interesting. At that moment, I do not know exactly what to do and why I am doing what I do. Sorry man, some people may have figured out but not me yet. Again, I am not that skilled for things like this. I was able to fix all conflicts in my Skyrim game but I do not know my load order as I should and I do not like that. I need to know why I placed this mod before and why the other after. I understand that one should take precedent but that is not what I meant, is the fact that dealing with a lot of dependencies, is not ( at least for me ) that easy.

 

The funny part is that I am able to create custom mods, I am able to work with SSEEdit, I was able to resolve conflicts before using this tool, patches and stuff but this particular part, is the stone in my freaking shoe !

[UrizenDe]

And with Vortex, these users are losing the option of that "making necessary corrections" step in an easy and familiar manner, instead being forced to take that extra step that I'd bet actual money the vast majority of users have never bothered doing before. On top of all this, I've yet to see an actual valid reason as to why this change has been made other than "well it's better to do it this way".

Rule/Priority based sorting has clear advantages, in that you usually make the edit once and it sticks. I have several mods which are essential to my gaming experience. These have to be placed in specific fashion. Rules help with that.

[Ethreon]

 

And with Vortex, these users are losing the option of that "making necessary corrections" step in an easy and familiar manner, instead being forced to take that extra step that I'd bet actual money the vast majority of users have never bothered doing before. On top of all this, I've yet to see an actual valid reason as to why this change has been made other than "well it's better to do it this way".

Rule/Priority based sorting has clear advantages, in that you usually make the edit once and it sticks. I have several mods which are essential to my gaming experience. These have to be placed in specific fashion. Rules help with that.

 

 

So does classic load order.

[piperman123]

 

 

Everyone is just having a tiff because it's not drag and drop like they're used to.

 

 

And they're used to it because it's how everyone has managed mods with pretty much every bit of software that allows you to manage mods since people have been modding. Hell, Bethesda's own load order managers, whether you use the one in previous games' launchers, or the Mods screen they implemented in FO4 and SSE, are all based on allowing you to simply move mods where you need them to be. It's the most basic way of implementing load order management, and has become the de facto way of doing so.

 

I'd wager the way most people do it, is they install their mods, they run LOOT, they check to see if there are any glaring issues with the way LOOT has ordered things, they make the necessary corrections, and then they play. The people who care to take the extra step of creating rules and messing with priorities for LOOT are undoubtedly a much smaller subset of these users.

 

And with Vortex, these users are losing the option of that "making necessary corrections" step in an easy and familiar manner, instead being forced to take that extra step that I'd bet actual money the vast majority of users have never bothered doing before. On top of all this, I've yet to see an actual valid reason as to why this change has been made other than "well it's better to do it this way".

 

There's a large number of people who consider Mod Organizer to be the better way of managing mods, and yet it's an admittedly more complicated/advanced tool for management than the majority of people are willing to use, as Tannin himself admits.

 

So if we're not comfortable forcing the average user to use a more advanced tool like Mod Organizer to manage their mods... why the heck are we comfortable forcing those same users to use a more advanced method of load order management?

 

 

 

What your saying doesn't really make sense. Vortex's approach is actually way more simple. Maybe not for you who is re-learning a slightly new approach but for someone just getting into modding they now only see things that actually need to be changed, it's made clear why and how to do so. Don't forget Vortex isn't a manager for us old hands who are used to using Skyrim, it's for people just getting into modding, all the new games and any future games.

 

Providing all these more 'advanced' features is to keep us happy but the main target is the 'average' gamer and new modders, for now anyway. The program is still getting fleshed out don't forget. Someone coming into modding may very well get overwhelmed by having to worry about manually rearranging all their mods but having a dialogue showing you only the mods that are conflicting and need to be ordered, making it easy to order only the ones that need to be ordered without the distraction of the rest of your mods is far simpler and more straight forward. The only issue with this approach is Vortex's lack of bsa support, but why replace a new mechanic which is simpler and more efficient for the reasons above for an old method when all they just need to do is finish polishing what they've already worked on. And it does work, just differently to how your used to. Remember, it's obviously going to be a lot easier for us lot to adapt to a new approach, and be real, it works and it's at the least just as simple and straight forward, than it would be for a newcomer to adapt to MO's approach or worse yet NMM's approach where they'll have to realize they need to reinstall mods to solve conflicts.

 

I honestly do hear you, but in no way is Vortex more complicated than MO. If anything it's still lacking some of the more advanced features MO offers. At best you can accuse it of trying to oversimplify.