seriously? this is not right

[jojje5]

You can't copyright programming languages themselves, just as you can't copyright English or other languages (even invented ones like Klingon). But when you write a book in English or write source code in C++, you (automatically) gain copyright on that particular expression. There are aspects of computer programs that cannot be copyrighted, yes, but this is why tests like the Abstraction-Filtration-Comparision test were created - to figure out what parts of a computer program can be copyrighted.

 

Now, as for your claim that you changing "akActionRef" into something else and then suddenly that becomes a derivative work that you own is incorrect. First, the right to create derivative works is owned solely by the copyright holder or anyone else they authorize (source: U.S. Copyright Office Circular 14). Secondly, simply changing one little thing isn't going to even get you close to derivative work status - otherwise I could just change "Alice" to "Jennifer" and suddenly have a derivative work of "Jennifer in Wonderland".

 

In short: Talk with Dark0ne, then seriously think about finding lawyers who specialize in copyright who will know more about the issue.

 

 

 

i just can´t believe it that you try to push it this far. there is not going to be any more mods on the nexus if you guys start pulling this. :ermm:

though i will still make an attempt to argue that changing 2 out of 6 lines in a script would be considered substantial, and therefor making it into a original. . it sure is more than what Marcel Duchamp did to Mona Lisa. But i need to wait for after the weekend to get some more legal advice.

 

 

 

I can not answer your question entirely as I don't know the specifics and the person to whom you spoke (was it staff or another member? Was it the author of one of the mods referenced?) You should talk to either SirSalami or Dark0ne (the site owner) regarding this matter. Unless you spoke to one of them already.

 

Ultimately copyright is one thing and the rules of the site are another. I will say in the past that scripts themselves have been protected here when they were an original work. There is a big issue with derivative work that is sometimes just too difficult to decide upon in some instances.

 

That being said, there is a bit of the site rules you may wish to also pay attention to that is above and beyond copyright. This site follows copyright laws (and all laws of course.) But the rules of this site often go beyond even laws and the instance of copyright is one of them.

 

The Terms of Service state:

 

• Absolutely no copyrighted work is to be used without permission of the original creator. This includes content from other games, from DLCs, music creators or from other file authors. This also includes members from countries that do not recognise copyright laws.
• All files uploaded must have been created by the uploader or used with permission from the original author of the content. Such permission must be indicated in the Readme text attached to the file and/or on the Description page (or in the Description field for images), and must be obtained in advance, before uploading the file. If you cannot provide proof of consent then your file will be removed and your account is likely to be banned.
• Always provide appropriate credit to authors who have given you permission to use their content in your files both within the file description and within your file readme, even if said content was published as free to use.

 

So your mod may fall in arrears to the rules of the site regardless of if it is a lawful copyright matter or not. So to the point, it might not matter. It may not be a copyright issue against you if taken to court (thought honestly I think the reason your attorneys are having issues is that there is very little case law regarding mods and even less on derivative works of a mod, if any.) Just because a mod does or doesn't meet the standards of copyright does not mean it doesn't break those above rules. One of the reasons The Nexus has survived all these many, many years is that we protect mod authors' works.

 

You will wish to talk to SirSalami/Dark0ne in this matter if you contend it as a derivative work. But in the end of this just because it isn't copyright infringement doesn't mean that you wouldn't need to get permission from the original mod author. That is the NEXUS rules to which you agreed when you signed up for this site. I'm not saying that this is what will happen at the end of this. I am telling you that our Terms are far more protective in regard to mod author content. Any answer you get from SirSalami/Dark0ne (especially Robin since he is the site owner) will be final. This is a private website and Dark0ne's will is supreme. He can make any rule that he desires that does not break the law and host or not any mod that does not break the law. If the rules on hosting a mod are more stringent than the law, that is his decision and will.

 

So I urge you to talk with SirSalami or Dark0ne as these are really the only people that can give you a final, firm answer to your questions (or one of us moderators by proxy.) Raising them again in the open forum will not get you a final answer as it isn't coming from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

 

So speak to them privately on Discord or use the Contact Me button at the bottom of the forums. Make sure you have as much information as possible when you speak to them of the situation.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

Thanks for the reply linspuppy. I would love to talk to SirSalami or Dark0ne. but i hope that you can see that this is a rather public issue and just not a private issue of mine. hence why i brought it here.

and i think it would be great if SirSalami or Dark0ne could come here to address the issue as i am sure i am not the only one that does not enjoy feeling a knife on the throat for just creating simple mods.

 

the praxis of this kabal that attempts to pool their mod resources together in order to block other modders not on their white-list i also think needs addressing.

I understand that they are only doing it for fear of piracy, but really is this the community that you want? it leaves little power left for management, and i would almost describe it as a "soft" hostile-takeover.

 

TLDR; i would like to see a real public debate about this.

 

[Reneer]

i just can´t believe it that you try to push it this far. there is not going to be any more mods on the nexus if you guys start pulling this. :ermm:

though i will still make an attempt to argue that changing 2 out of 6 lines in a script would be considered substantial, and therefor making it into a original. . it sure is more than what Marcel Duchamp did to Mona Lisa. But i need to wait for after the weekend to get some more legal advice.

That's a funny slippery-slope you've got there. Also, the Mona Lisa was very, very much in the public domain when Duchamp made L.H.O.O.Q. You might want to try finding a better analogy.

 

The laws regarding copyright aren't going to change just because you or anyone else desires it because those laws are bound to international treaties that have been ratified by governments over the past 100+ years. And I can almost guarantee that the Nexus policies aren't going to change either. A public debate would change neither the law nor the Nexus policy.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Reneer

[jojje5]

 

The laws regarding copyright aren't going to change just because you or anyone else desires it

 

all laws are subject to interpretation, so yes they do change. how much more are we going to disagree on ?

[Reneer]

all laws are subject to interpretation, so yes they do change. how much more are we going to disagree on ?

Laws are subject to some judicial interpretation, yes. But the laws that directly govern copyright are plain and simple. They have been tested in the crucible of the courts for longer than you and I have been alive. No one's copyright is going to be invalidated merely because you wish it to be so.

 

And to answer your question: A lot, it seems.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Reneer

[ThoraldGM]

When I first started modding, I placed use conditions in my code headers and hoarded snippets like they were "My Precious". Scripters have that right, but where does it get us as content developers and as a community? Innovation is going to happen much faster if more scripters publish open source and public domain. Consider the total number of Papyrus scripters in the grand sphere of programming. (Hint: I had to request Papyrus syntax coloring from Pastebin AND send them a link to the XML file. So not that many.) Then consider how many people stick around through life's curveballs to work on long term projects. Then consider how many of them have open-door development. It's a very, very small and niche group. Instead of bickering about base functions that are published on the wiki, that energy can be directed to Sim Settlements, Spawns of the Commonwealth, Fallout 4 New Vegas, Cascadia, etc.

 

Also, how is the next generation of scripters going to learn if we don't allow practice? Musicians play covers. Scripters beg, borrow, and steal until they can dream in code. We need to encourage that process by being modular and open. If every scripter has to start at zero instead of sharing resources, projects are going to die on the vine.

[Reneer]

There are plenty of shared resources already. See TES Alliance, the wikis, etc. And, to be frank, practice is different than simply lifting someone's code and sticking it in a script.

 

And you can be open and modular all you want, but count me out. I'm a self-taught scripter and I'm generally happy to help out others, but that doesn't mean I have to open source my code, nor should there be any kind of pressure on anyone to open source their work. Advocating for open source is fine, but the minute someone tries to tell me I have to open up my work, I'm out.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Reneer

[LadyMilla]

This may help:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point 10 is the one that you'll be interested in.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

You can't copyright programming languages themselves, just as you can't copyright English or other languages (even invented ones like Klingon). But when you write a book in English or write source code in C++, you (automatically) gain copyright on that particular expression. There are aspects of computer programs that cannot be copyrighted, yes, but this is why tests like the Abstraction-Filtration-Comparision test were created - to figure out what parts of a computer program can be copyrighted.

 

Now, as for your claim that you changing "akActionRef" into something else and then suddenly that becomes a derivative work that you own is incorrect. First, the right to create derivative works is owned solely by the copyright holder or anyone else they authorize (source: U.S. Copyright Office Circular 14). Secondly, simply changing one little thing isn't going to even get you close to derivative work status - otherwise I could just change "Alice" to "Jennifer" and suddenly have a derivative work of "Jennifer in Wonderland".

 

In short: Talk with Dark0ne, then seriously think about finding lawyers who specialize in copyright who will know more about the issue.

 

 

 

i just can´t believe it that you try to push it this far. there is not going to be any more mods on the nexus if you guys start pulling this. :ermm:

though i will still make an attempt to argue that changing 2 out of 6 lines in a script would be considered substantial, and therefor making it into a original. . it sure is more than what Marcel Duchamp did to Mona Lisa. But i need to wait for after the weekend to get some more legal advice.

 

 

 

I can not answer your question entirely as I don't know the specifics and the person to whom you spoke (was it staff or another member? Was it the author of one of the mods referenced?) You should talk to either SirSalami or Dark0ne (the site owner) regarding this matter. Unless you spoke to one of them already.

 

Ultimately copyright is one thing and the rules of the site are another. I will say in the past that scripts themselves have been protected here when they were an original work. There is a big issue with derivative work that is sometimes just too difficult to decide upon in some instances.

 

That being said, there is a bit of the site rules you may wish to also pay attention to that is above and beyond copyright. This site follows copyright laws (and all laws of course.) But the rules of this site often go beyond even laws and the instance of copyright is one of them.

 

The Terms of Service state:

 

• Absolutely no copyrighted work is to be used without permission of the original creator. This includes content from other games, from DLCs, music creators or from other file authors. This also includes members from countries that do not recognise copyright laws.
• All files uploaded must have been created by the uploader or used with permission from the original author of the content. Such permission must be indicated in the Readme text attached to the file and/or on the Description page (or in the Description field for images), and must be obtained in advance, before uploading the file. If you cannot provide proof of consent then your file will be removed and your account is likely to be banned.
• Always provide appropriate credit to authors who have given you permission to use their content in your files both within the file description and within your file readme, even if said content was published as free to use.

 

So your mod may fall in arrears to the rules of the site regardless of if it is a lawful copyright matter or not. So to the point, it might not matter. It may not be a copyright issue against you if taken to court (thought honestly I think the reason your attorneys are having issues is that there is very little case law regarding mods and even less on derivative works of a mod, if any.) Just because a mod does or doesn't meet the standards of copyright does not mean it doesn't break those above rules. One of the reasons The Nexus has survived all these many, many years is that we protect mod authors' works.

 

You will wish to talk to SirSalami/Dark0ne in this matter if you contend it as a derivative work. But in the end of this just because it isn't copyright infringement doesn't mean that you wouldn't need to get permission from the original mod author. That is the NEXUS rules to which you agreed when you signed up for this site. I'm not saying that this is what will happen at the end of this. I am telling you that our Terms are far more protective in regard to mod author content. Any answer you get from SirSalami/Dark0ne (especially Robin since he is the site owner) will be final. This is a private website and Dark0ne's will is supreme. He can make any rule that he desires that does not break the law and host or not any mod that does not break the law. If the rules on hosting a mod are more stringent than the law, that is his decision and will.

 

So I urge you to talk with SirSalami or Dark0ne as these are really the only people that can give you a final, firm answer to your questions (or one of us moderators by proxy.) Raising them again in the open forum will not get you a final answer as it isn't coming from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

 

So speak to them privately on Discord or use the Contact Me button at the bottom of the forums. Make sure you have as much information as possible when you speak to them of the situation.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

Thanks for the reply linspuppy. I would love to talk to SirSalami or Dark0ne. but i hope that you can see that this is a rather public issue and just not a private issue of mine. hence why i brought it here.

and i think it would be great if SirSalami or Dark0ne could come here to address the issue as i am sure i am not the only one that does not enjoy feeling a knife on the throat for just creating simple mods.

 

the praxis of this kabal that attempts to pool their mod resources together in order to block other modders not on their white-list i also think needs addressing.

I understand that they are only doing it for fear of piracy, but really is this the community that you want? it leaves little power left for management, and i would almost describe it as a "soft" hostile-takeover.

 

TLDR; i would like to see a real public debate about this.

 

 

 

Then contact them as they are the only ones that can give you a final answer on the matter. You can debate all you like but their answer (which may be yes, it is fine to put the mod up, I can't say) will be the final word of your particular situation.

[jojje5]

There are plenty of shared resources already. See TES Alliance, the wikis, etc. And, to be frank, practice is different than simply lifting someone's code and sticking it in a script.

 

And you can be open and modular all you want, but count me out. I'm a self-taught scripter and I'm generally happy to help out others, but that doesn't mean I have to open source my code, nor should there be any kind of pressure on anyone to open source their work. Advocating for open source is fine, but the minute someone tries to tell me I have to open up my work, I'm out.

 

I have not simply copy/pasted any ones code. The example i posted came straight from my head, and i wrote it specifically to raise debate as i know it is part of content that your kabal group of people attempts to claim ownership of.

I learned papyrus by reading Tutorials posted on this site, watching youtube and by watching other modders. so If i continue too script then i have no doubt that there is going to be many more occasions where i stumble on code used by others.

 

I do not mind seeking permission for major things, but if this is going to be a concern for every single little thing that i want to include in my mods then i feel that is a major issue for my creative process,

and if so i would much rather go back to the way we used to do it before modding had gained acceptance and share my mods on alternative channels while claiming fair use until the DMCA notice hits, rinse and repeat.

 

This may help:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point 10 is the one that you'll be interested in.

 

Thanks allot Lady Milla. are you saying that since my script is a method of operation and the only way to achieve the end result that would make it ok?

If so that would be great news.

 

 

 

You can't copyright programming languages themselves, just as you can't copyright English or other languages (even invented ones like Klingon). But when you write a book in English or write source code in C++, you (automatically) gain copyright on that particular expression. There are aspects of computer programs that cannot be copyrighted, yes, but this is why tests like the Abstraction-Filtration-Comparision test were created - to figure out what parts of a computer program can be copyrighted.

 

Now, as for your claim that you changing "akActionRef" into something else and then suddenly that becomes a derivative work that you own is incorrect. First, the right to create derivative works is owned solely by the copyright holder or anyone else they authorize (source: U.S. Copyright Office Circular 14). Secondly, simply changing one little thing isn't going to even get you close to derivative work status - otherwise I could just change "Alice" to "Jennifer" and suddenly have a derivative work of "Jennifer in Wonderland".

 

In short: Talk with Dark0ne, then seriously think about finding lawyers who specialize in copyright who will know more about the issue.

 

 

 

i just can´t believe it that you try to push it this far. there is not going to be any more mods on the nexus if you guys start pulling this. :ermm:

though i will still make an attempt to argue that changing 2 out of 6 lines in a script would be considered substantial, and therefor making it into a original. . it sure is more than what Marcel Duchamp did to Mona Lisa. But i need to wait for after the weekend to get some more legal advice.

 

 

 

I can not answer your question entirely as I don't know the specifics and the person to whom you spoke (was it staff or another member? Was it the author of one of the mods referenced?) You should talk to either SirSalami or Dark0ne (the site owner) regarding this matter. Unless you spoke to one of them already.

 

Ultimately copyright is one thing and the rules of the site are another. I will say in the past that scripts themselves have been protected here when they were an original work. There is a big issue with derivative work that is sometimes just too difficult to decide upon in some instances.

 

That being said, there is a bit of the site rules you may wish to also pay attention to that is above and beyond copyright. This site follows copyright laws (and all laws of course.) But the rules of this site often go beyond even laws and the instance of copyright is one of them.

 

The Terms of Service state:

 

• Absolutely no copyrighted work is to be used without permission of the original creator. This includes content from other games, from DLCs, music creators or from other file authors. This also includes members from countries that do not recognise copyright laws.
• All files uploaded must have been created by the uploader or used with permission from the original author of the content. Such permission must be indicated in the Readme text attached to the file and/or on the Description page (or in the Description field for images), and must be obtained in advance, before uploading the file. If you cannot provide proof of consent then your file will be removed and your account is likely to be banned.
• Always provide appropriate credit to authors who have given you permission to use their content in your files both within the file description and within your file readme, even if said content was published as free to use.

 

So your mod may fall in arrears to the rules of the site regardless of if it is a lawful copyright matter or not. So to the point, it might not matter. It may not be a copyright issue against you if taken to court (thought honestly I think the reason your attorneys are having issues is that there is very little case law regarding mods and even less on derivative works of a mod, if any.) Just because a mod does or doesn't meet the standards of copyright does not mean it doesn't break those above rules. One of the reasons The Nexus has survived all these many, many years is that we protect mod authors' works.

 

You will wish to talk to SirSalami/Dark0ne in this matter if you contend it as a derivative work. But in the end of this just because it isn't copyright infringement doesn't mean that you wouldn't need to get permission from the original mod author. That is the NEXUS rules to which you agreed when you signed up for this site. I'm not saying that this is what will happen at the end of this. I am telling you that our Terms are far more protective in regard to mod author content. Any answer you get from SirSalami/Dark0ne (especially Robin since he is the site owner) will be final. This is a private website and Dark0ne's will is supreme. He can make any rule that he desires that does not break the law and host or not any mod that does not break the law. If the rules on hosting a mod are more stringent than the law, that is his decision and will.

 

So I urge you to talk with SirSalami or Dark0ne as these are really the only people that can give you a final, firm answer to your questions (or one of us moderators by proxy.) Raising them again in the open forum will not get you a final answer as it isn't coming from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

 

So speak to them privately on Discord or use the Contact Me button at the bottom of the forums. Make sure you have as much information as possible when you speak to them of the situation.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

Thanks for the reply linspuppy. I would love to talk to SirSalami or Dark0ne. but i hope that you can see that this is a rather public issue and just not a private issue of mine. hence why i brought it here.

and i think it would be great if SirSalami or Dark0ne could come here to address the issue as i am sure i am not the only one that does not enjoy feeling a knife on the throat for just creating simple mods.

 

the praxis of this kabal that attempts to pool their mod resources together in order to block other modders not on their white-list i also think needs addressing.

I understand that they are only doing it for fear of piracy, but really is this the community that you want? it leaves little power left for management, and i would almost describe it as a "soft" hostile-takeover.

 

TLDR; i would like to see a real public debate about this.

 

 

 

Then contact them as they are the only ones that can give you a final answer on the matter. You can debate all you like but their answer (which may be yes, it is fine to put the mod up, I can't say) will be the final word of your particular situation.

 

 

I have sen´t a PM to SirSalami and asked if he or Dark0ne could address this Topic. but regarding me i would not say that there is any "particular issue", this is a General issue.

and IF i decide to host my mods here then i would ofc adjust to their ruling.

Edited February 5, 2018 by jojje5

[Reneer]

I have not simply copy/pasted any ones code. The example i posted came straight from my head, and i wrote it specifically to raise debate as i know it is part of content that your kabal group of people attempts to claim ownership of.

I learned papyrus by reading Tutorials posted on this site, watching youtube and by watching other modders. so If i continue too script then i have no doubt that there is going to be many more occasions where i stumble on code used by others.

 

I do not mind seeking permission for major things, but if this is going to be a concern for every single little thing that i want to include in my mods then i feel that is a major issue for my creative process,

and if so i would much rather go back to the way we used to do it before modding had gained acceptance and share my mods on alternative channels while claiming fair use until the DMCA notice hits, rinse and repeat.

I don't know where you're getting this idea of a "kabal" from, but it doesn't exist. And your overall concern has no evidence - no one that I know of in the community is going to come after you for something as simple as the code snippet you posted / created, unless you name that person that you apparently had a PM fight with. No one should come after you if you recreate a mod they created, so long as you either get permission to use their assets or you recreate everything yourself. From my point of view, with the knowledge I currently have, you're just tilting at windmills.

 

And if you want to share your mods on "alternative channels", go right ahead. No one is stopping you. But if you intend to use those "alternative channels" to flaunt copyright and permissions, you won't have anyone to defend you when those DMCA takedown notices fall into your inbox (or the inbox of the hosting provider).

Edited February 5, 2018 by Reneer