LOOT groups issue

[passionatepilgrim]

Well actually this is not an experimental version. 0.13.2 is the official latest release of the loot-api. The loot standalone application is still at 0.12 but I assumed

that was before the UI for this feature wasn't done yet.

 

Anyway, you're using vortex, an alpha application and within the "beta" update channel. If you didn't expect things might break we apparently weren't clear enough about

the development state. This feature is only in the most bleeding-edge version we publish, no one has been "forced" to use it.

 

I'm using it because after having done a bunch of research, it didn't sound like anything I used was going to be perfect. They all came with risks. This seems to be a time of change in the mod manager space. Plus, Vortex had reached a stable place (until this loot change). SKSE64 is still Alpha too, but it's working out pretty well. Should I not be using that since I'm new to modding. Every single mod is "use at your own risk". This whole modding thing is a risk taking endeavor. I'm okay with that. It's just a game.

 

In fact, I'm not upset anymore. Yesterday was just a disappointment. The primary part being that the change could have been handled better. If I had gotten advanced notice, I would have written down my priorities. I would not have spent several hours trying to untangle my rules (which were all correct). Everything would have been okay. I'm a SQL programmer. I get that things have unintended consequences. But this wasn't an unexpected change. If the API changed, then the code to call on the API had to change. If the Priority field went away, that had to be coded. This wasn't some unexpected result. This was a change that was planned on the backend, but just plopped in the users' laps. And using the "Alpha" stage as an excuse for being inconsiderate of your user base is... well it's not very endearing.

 

-- Edited: Removed other comments after I understood what's trying to be accomplished with groups.

[passionatepilgrim]

 

 

LOOT calls it an upcoming feature so I think it is fair to say that it is experimental. I was not aware that the update channels actually did different things since the whole app is still in alpha. That's on me then. I can deal with the issues but some people here are new modders which begs the question why they are using in the first place.

 

For the loot standalone application it's an upcoming feature because it's not included in the current release of the loot standalone application.

But in the loot-api it has already replaced priorities at the beginning of april. The issue tracking the development has been closed end of march (https://github.com/loot/loot-api/issues/20)

 

 

The API changed at the beginning of April. You rolled the Vortex update out in the middle of May. So it's not like these changes took you by surprise. But you sure let them take us by surprise. Your conversation in the link you attached clearly shows that you knew these issues would occur.

 

Other than that, great job on Vortex! I really like it. Sure there's some minor things that could be better. But considering I could get off the ground so quickly with virtually no issues is a big endorsement for Vortex being great for entry-level folks.

 

-- Edited after further research.

[Tannin42]

 

 

The API changed at the beginning of April. You rolled the Vortex update out in the middle of May. So it's not like these changes took you by surprise. But you sure let them take us by surprise. Your conversation in the link you attached clearly shows that you knew these issues would occur.

 

Other than that, great job on Vortex! I really like it. Sure there's some minor things that could be better. But considering I could get off the ground so quickly with virtually no issues is a big endorsement for Vortex being great for entry-level folks.

 

-- Edited after further research.

 

Of course I knew that the API was changing, I had to integrate the changes into the UI, didn't I? Maybe this isn't clear enough, but the problem isn't that loot introduced groups but that the sorting algorithm regarding groups has a bug, something that I'm sure is going to be fixed.

When I started integrating this feature the issue here wasn't known and I didn't know that the LOOT application would not be updated before I update. Even once it became known I didn't know how long it would take to fix.

So once the problem had come up my choice was to

a) hit the emergency break, stash the changes I had made and delay the feature until this issue is resolved and then do a new release and then potentially find a new problem and be back at the same place

- or

b) just release it, collect complaints and then fix them in as few updates as possible.

 

Were this a stable release I would have gone with the first variant but since it's an alpha and everyone knew what they're getting themselves into (right?) I decided not to tiptoe it.

If this remains the only issue with loot groups and their integration in vortex then it will have been a bad decision in hindsight. But if it turns out there are further problems, having released now will have accelerated development.

[Graybark]

Hay anyone been able to successfully assign groups to just the patches to make it work? I end up having to create groups for pretty much every single mod, and I am not done yet. Troublemakers seem to be Improved Closefaced Helmets, Morrowloot Ultimate, Immersive Citizens, and Alternate Start. Honest question here. I would like to know how people with a similar mod list solved this.

 

This is the error without any custom settings:

Edited May 17, 2018 by ArtaiosGreybark

[Grestorn]

I've created a group called "High Prio Mods" and one called "Manual Patches".

 

I've inserted them into the graph so that both of them are pretty much sorted at the end.

 

All mods I want to have priority are put into "High Prio Mods" and the ones I create myself in xEdit are in "Manual Patches". These are the ones that should be on the bottom of the list.

 

This seemed to work perfectly for me. I didn't change ANY of the other group assignments and I didn't see a reason to do so. There are some issues where I want to load a certain mod after another, but for these I've just created a rule, they're both still in "Default".

[Graybark]

I've created a group called "High Prio Mods" and one called "Manual Patches".

 

I've inserted them into the graph so that both of them are pretty much sorted at the end.

 

All mods I want to have priority are put into "High Prio Mods" and the ones I create myself in xEdit are in "Manual Patches". These are the ones that should be on the bottom of the list.

 

This seemed to work perfectly for me. I didn't change ANY of the other group assignments and I didn't see a reason to do so. There are some issues where I want to load a certain mod after another, but for these I've just created a rule, they're both still in "Default".

Thanks. Not sure how that would translate into the issue I am having. Could you explain how to interpret this message, by the way? What is this back cycle and why are these plugins listed in this order?

 

We should probably also have a way to clear our custom assignments. I have reversed all of my custom rules and it is still telling me that custom rules were involved. Could be a bug.

Edited May 17, 2018 by ArtaiosGreybark

[Grestorn]

I think this is caused by a bug in the Loot-API if I understood Tannin correctly.

 

And he recommended, as a workaround, to put all the patches into the same group as the patched mod. In your case, all Alternate Life patches have to be in the same group as Alternate Life itself, which is probably "Alternate Life" :smile:

 

I don't use AL (doesn't work with VR) so I didn't have this particular issue myself.

[Graybark]

I solved the issue with one simple rule: tell Alternate Start to load after MLU. I do not understand this at all since the Alternate Start group is set to load after MLU by default. This is beyond me.

 

Putting the patches in the same group does not work. It will keep reporting issues. Anyway, I am now without complaints.

Edited May 17, 2018 by ArtaiosGreybark

[passionatepilgrim]

 

 

 

The API changed at the beginning of April. You rolled the Vortex update out in the middle of May. So it's not like these changes took you by surprise. But you sure let them take us by surprise. Your conversation in the link you attached clearly shows that you knew these issues would occur.

 

Other than that, great job on Vortex! I really like it. Sure there's some minor things that could be better. But considering I could get off the ground so quickly with virtually no issues is a big endorsement for Vortex being great for entry-level folks.

 

-- Edited after further research.

 

Of course I knew that the API was changing, I had to integrate the changes into the UI, didn't I? Maybe this isn't clear enough, but the problem isn't that loot introduced groups but that the sorting algorithm regarding groups has a bug, something that I'm sure is going to be fixed.

When I started integrating this feature the issue here wasn't known and I didn't know that the LOOT application would not be updated before I update. Even once it became known I didn't know how long it would take to fix.

So once the problem had come up my choice was to

a) hit the emergency break, stash the changes I had made and delay the feature until this issue is resolved and then do a new release and then potentially find a new problem and be back at the same place

- or

b) just release it, collect complaints and then fix them in as few updates as possible.

 

Were this a stable release I would have gone with the first variant but since it's an alpha and everyone knew what they're getting themselves into (right?) I decided not to tiptoe it.

If this remains the only issue with loot groups and their integration in vortex then it will have been a bad decision in hindsight. But if it turns out there are further problems, having released now will have accelerated development.

 

 

Ahh. That was not clear to me. I thought this was the intended behavior of the groups. I apologize for reacting without getting my information straight. And yeah, I knew what I was signing up for when I decided to go with Vortex. No worries.

 

One feature that would be nice in the future is if there was a notice in Vortex when we launch it that pre-warns us of an upcoming automatic update. I guess an email notification would best in case I'm not logging in regularly, but anyway something that lets me know to check out the release notes on the forums would be helpful. It would have saved me some time and frustration. I would have taken some screen shots of my load order. In fact, I think that might be a good practice going forward any time I get my load order in a stable place.

[ilkhan8]

Out of curiosity, is or will there be a way to opt-out of any type of LOOT influence upon my games through Vortex? I have never needed BOSS or LOOT in all these years and never will.