Restricting debate content is cowardly and pointless

[kvnchrist]

 

I'm always amused at the 'freedom at any price' advocates who incorrectly assume that some form of natural civility will prevail once the shackles of debate restrictions are gone. ......... :ohmy: :laugh: Needed a moment to stop laughing.

What actually occurs is more akin to Lord of the Flies than Peter Pan debating earnestly with his opponent Capt. Hook. I consider myself a restrained debater but that has not stopped me from diving off the deep end when faced with what I perceived as prolonged neural incapacity of other debaters. Defined limits are useful tools when there is no gavel to silence the mob with it's blood-lust up mid debate. Last but by no means least, Nexus is Robin's house..so he gets to make the rules. The rest of us are just along for the ride much like the two mosquitoes debating how to 'alter the course' of the elephant that they are sitting on.

Yeah, the folks that think their 'freedom of speech' applies EVERYWHERE....... Even in foreign countries. (which Nexus qualifies as..... oddly enough.) Of course, I have been seeing that argument as long as I have been participating on forums too. :smile:

 

It's not really freedom of speech that gets these guys It's the idea that such speech should be free of the consequences created by such speech. This is what makes them so much of a burden on those around them, because their irresponsibility often effects far more than just themselves.

[AJStoner]

I don't see the point in creating a thread that introduces an argument about the rules of a forum with those who are only members here and as such are powerless to change either the forum or the rules, even if those same members have issues with said rules.

 

No one needs to defend policies made and implemented by those who have taken up the responsibility to provide a place in which people can come and discuss ideas and those who assume otherwise are free to create their own website where they can test their own theories at their leisure.

I'm not really interested in changing the rules so much as provoking responses and that has turned out nicely, especially given the last several which have devolved into the typical leftist ‘Anyone who advocates for free speech and ideas standing or falling on their merits is inherently a Nazi’ tripe.

 

Take this gem from kvnchrist:: “It's not really freedom of speech that gets these guys It's the idea that such speech should be free of the consequences created by such speech. This is what makes them so much of a burden on those around them, because their irresponsibility often effects far more than just themselves.”

 

I don't really give a crap about these (albeit stupid) rules. I want people to see the attitude the modern left has about the very cornerstone of freedom and Western Civilization. It doesn’t matter to them. They hold the very notion of self-expression in contempt because the only way their morally and intellectually bankrupt ideology can survive is if it is the only one that can be given voice to.

[Reneer]

Nevermind. Edited June 14, 2018 by Reneer

[kvnchrist]

 

I don't see the point in creating a thread that introduces an argument about the rules of a forum with those who are only members here and as such are powerless to change either the forum or the rules, even if those same members have issues with said rules.

 

No one needs to defend policies made and implemented by those who have taken up the responsibility to provide a place in which people can come and discuss ideas and those who assume otherwise are free to create their own website where they can test their own theories at their leisure.

I'm not really interested in changing the rules so much as provoking responses and that has turned out nicely, especially given the last several which have devolved into the typical leftist ‘Anyone who advocates for free speech and ideas standing or falling on their merits is inherently a Nazi’ tripe.

 

Take this gem from kvnchrist:: “It's not really freedom of speech that gets these guys It's the idea that such speech should be free of the consequences created by such speech. This is what makes them so much of a burden on those around them, because their irresponsibility often effects far more than just themselves.”

 

I don't really give a crap about these (albeit stupid) rules. I want people to see the attitude the modern left has about the very cornerstone of freedom and Western Civilization. It doesn’t matter to them. They hold the very notion of self-expression in contempt because the only way their morally and intellectually bankrupt ideology can survive is if it is the only one that can be given voice to.

 

Truth be told that really wasn't a gem but a statement of fact of the here and now. I would be remiss if I were not to expand on that and research the history of that sentiment as it was not always the case that the left held those beliefs. it wasn't very long ago that the right had a monopoly on curtailing freedom of speech and it was the left who embraced the idea as a way to get out their ideals. It was the authoritarianism of the right that the left has embraced these past several years that has caused the right so much consternation. I've walked this world for 60 years and have seen both the left and the right in the catbird seat and I assure you neither side can be trusted to avail themselves, completely to the free and unfettered discussion, when they hold the reins of society.

 

Lets not forget that the right embraces what society has culturally represented and the left has historically championed innovation and change. Once the innovation of the left has become mainstream, then it becomes part of the culture and and in turn becomes the standard the right clangs to. the real issue is not right or left, but right and wrong. What works and what does not work. If you hold onto something just to hold onto something you become a drag on society. If you want change for changes sake then you just become irresponsible and the lives of everyone else becomes your guinea pig.

 

That being said, neither the right or the left could exist without each other and without both working their magic society would stagnate. It is the right that maintains the structure of society that the left works to enrich. In essence the right provide the canvass and the left uses to pant on. Without the canvas there would be no painting and without the painting the canvas would only be a shell of what it could become.

 

What we are discussing here has much more to do with right and wrong, than left or right, as it is the integrity of the site that comes into play. Idealist prejudices and elitist grandstanding, backed up with convenient anonymity of the internet have made certain subjects so toxic that to allow their continual discussion is to invite communal degradation to the point of monkeys throwing their feces.

 

These areas are set up as a distraction from the real scope of this site and as such are a unnecessary irritant when what is being discussed causes rifts between those who share their love for gaming and modding games.

 

 

I don't really give a crap about these (irrelevant opinion) rules. I want people to see the attitude the modern left has about the very cornerstone of freedom and Western Civilization. It doesn’t matter to them. They hold the very notion of self-expression in contempt because the only way their morally and intellectually bankrupt ideology can survive is if it is the only one that can be given voice to.

 

 

 

If I am to take your words at face value, this thread here is a distraction even to the issue being discussed as it was set up under false pretenses to further one's own ideology, which is incredibly uninteresting.

 

You have a great day, now!

[JaYmZeE311074]

In the immortal words of Eminem.

 

You find me offensive, I find you offensive
For finding me offensive
Hence, if I should draw the line on any fences
If so to what extent
If at any should I go
'Cause it's getting expensive
Being on the other side of the courtroom on the defensive
They say I cause extensive
Psychological nerve damage to the brain when I go to lengths this,
Far at other peoples' expenses
I say you're all just too goddamn sensitive
It's censorship
And it's down right blasphemous"

 

Essentially restricting debate is an oxymoron - it also hamstrings any chance of whatever the debate is about being resolved.

 

You know - YOU ARE FREE, to do what we tell you.......

[CharrGazgre]

We have freedom to speak..... of course, it comes with a price.

[xvdoc]

In my thinking there are three, and only three, legitimate reasons to remove a post and/or take action against a poster:

 

*Threats of, or incitement to, violence. Violence here being defined as, well, violence. Claims that words are violence are simply ignorant BEYOND words.

 

*Doxing, to include both revealing a person’s information or encouraging/enabling others to take action against a person in the real world such as contacting employers, educators, family, friends, neighbors, community members, et al.

 

*Slander and libel, to meet the legal definitions of those terms—NOT simply insulting someone.

 

Short of these criteria there is no reason to not let a conversation run its course. No one is obliged to view or participate in a discussion that they do not want to. People who say ignorant, nasty, or stupid things will quickly be recognized for what they are and be dismissed accordingly. What’s more, moderators CANNOT be trusted to decide what is and isn’t acceptable outside of exact and narrowly defined parameters. It is human nature to dismiss authentic vitriol as righteous indignation when it conforms to one’s own viewpoint, while taking umbrage and asserting moral outrage with anything even remotely snarky or sarcastic that does not.

 

Bad ideas SHOULD be heard. It is how we, as a people, get to decide they are bad ideas and very good ideas have often been maligned as evil for simply not conforming to prevailing orthodoxy. No one is qualified to make these distinctions. NO ONE.

 

Offense is taken and not given—always. I am offended by fifty things a day. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together is. That does not give me, you, or anyone else the right to decide what is and is not fit to be heard and before anyone says ‘It’s a privately owned site, they have the right to decide what is and is not said here’ let me just respond with yes, they do. They have every right from a legal standpoint to censor whatever they choose. It is, none-the-less, morally and intellectually bankrupt to do so.

 

In any event, you are not getting rid of “bad ideas” by preventing them from being voiced. You are driving them into the shadows where they will fester like open wounds. You are making the world more suspicious, hostile, and partisan—not more open-minded.

 

 

Sounds like you have the potential to create a marvelous debate forum website with these kind of rules.

[Lisnpuppy]

It isn't so much restricting debate as much as restricting how the debate happens. Maybe I am just old but when I was in school people went to debate clubs and debate competitions. There were rules you had to follow. Many of those rules were similar to the ones on this site. Did that make the debates or those participating invalid? Of course not.

 

A debate isn't always about delibertly provoking someone or being offensive or being provoked or offended. It is when someone can't make or respond to a debate topic with facts and logic that things go south. Debates aren't a shouting argument with your neighbor about his dog craping all over your lawn. That's not how it works.

 

A debate isn't a protest march. It's not protesting at a supreme court nomination where you can get arrested, free speech or not. Even in America not all speech is free, not all places is it free and there are still rules and laws about what you say, where you say it and how you say it.

 

Those who know me here know I've said many times this section should be called the strongly worded opinion section. There are no true debates here like I spoke about above. But people still need to be civil and not act like a bunch of two year olds that just learned a new swear word. And there are just a few topics, like religion for example, that make people lose their freaking minds. It's too much trouble, angst and nonsense. If we dont let people act like arsehats on the rest of the site it's no going to happen here either.

 

If you dont think it's a real debates section because of that, then that is fine. Go find a real one if that floats your boat. This isn't the main function of this site and this section exist at Dark0ne's pleasure. He made the site, the rules, it is his baby. This isn't a corner in central park, this isn't a soapbox to step on, speech is not protected by the U.S. Constitution or anything else.

 

If you dont like it, dont use it. Seems simple enough.

[HeyYou]

My dog is doing you a favor by crapping in your yard, and digging holes as well. That's fertilizer, and she is aerating the yard for you. Both lead to healthier grass. So, you should be THANKING my dog for doing her business in your yard.

 

:D

[Evangela]

I've always agreed with such restrictions because I've personally seen what allowing them as done to forums I've been part of in the past. You just can't have civilized religious/political/current-events debates without cools being lost, threats being slung, and the negative vibes flowing among posters all over the board. Such discussions(to add emphasis to the last sentence) are also never self contained. They tend to spread and infect other topics that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. People wanna be and feel right, and they'll go to great bounds to make that known the person(s) they are clashing with.

 

One common thing. It always starts off as civil. Then all it takes is ONE poster to just lose it, and everything falls apart and it doesn't get better from there. Mods have to get involved, then usually that does nothing, then admins step in, and it's a whole new ball game.

 

It's not healthy for a community at all.

 

Three times I've seen the official bethesda forums fall apart over this(the old boards). Now for their new boards, NO discussions on ANYTHING that isn't game related is allowed. You're not even allowed casual chatting between members openly in a thread.

 

So in short.. you might can handle it. I know I can. The next 5 posters probably can. Indeed a small few can, civilly discuss sensitive issues without borders breaking down. However, the next 10 posters might not.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Rasikko