Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[sajuukkhar9000]

Why would they have to respect the "old ways" the "old ways" mean nothing compared to the "legal ways".

[Kraeten]

I just don't see the respect for the old ways, Solitude is just to Imperialized. It's the seat of Imperial power in Skyrim. You'd ve asking the Empire to legitimize an enemy and hand power to him - not gonna happen even if the enemy was Mother Theresa.

 

The High King himself honored the old ways, I wouldn't hastily presume Solitude wouldn't.

[fraquar]

Solitude is basically being run by Tullius now - so no, I don't think the Empire would honor Skyrim's traditions any more than they honored Skyrim's right to worship Talos. Elisif and her court are basically political pawns - just as her husband was.

[imperistan]

Great job missing the point. When Ulfric had Tullius at his mercy, did he choose to the higher road? Did he give the general the trial he himself had been denied? No, he took the same road. Surely you're not so narrow minded that you can't see that?

 

Why did he have to?

 

My point still stands. When Ulfric fled, he completely undermined whatever righteousness he could have claimed in killing Torygg.

 

And by staying he would have undermined his entire revolution, if it ever got off the ground afterwords.

 

Oh, so you think Ulfric just slipped away from Windhelm without telling his men he was heading to Solitude to confront the King?

 

Like I said, whatever arguments Ulfric's men could put up would be muddied in doubt by everyone else in Skyrim, including many in Windhelm.

 

How stupid do you think he is exactly?

 

Very stupid.

 

Why would they have to respect the "old ways" the "old ways" mean nothing compared to the "legal ways".

 

Legality doesn't mean much to revolutions. Revolutions are meant to change the nature of legality in a way that adhering to that legality can't.

 

The High King himself honored the old ways, I wouldn't hastily presume Solitude wouldn't.

 

This is why Solitude now supports Ulfric. Derp.

[Kraeten]

Solitude is basically being run by Tullius now

 

Would Tullius have been present at the time of Torygg's death? No. He didn't arrive in Skyrim until after Ulfric started his rebellion.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Kraeten

[Kraeten]

Why did he have to?

 

I'm not saying he had to. I'm just bringing up the fact he mirrors Tullius' behavior. To criticize Tullius for not giving Ulfric a trial is ridiculous, when Ulfric himself wouldn't afford his own enemy such a courtesy either.

 

And by staying he would have undermined his entire revolution, if it ever got off the ground afterwords.

 

I highly doubt that. Had he stayed, he would have showed an exemplary commitment to Skyrim's heritage. And in the event he was found guilty and executed, his death would be a rallying cry for his supporters.

 

This is why Solitude now supports Ulfric. Derp.

 

Solitude very well might have, if Ulfric hadn't fled.

[StormHammer81]

General Tullius, the Military Governor of Skyrim, was placed in charge after Torygg's murder plunged Skyrim into a Civil War.

 

The Empire had no choice but to take charge of things then. Although I think this sh*t about, "The Empire Doesn't Respect Nord Tradition" is completely fallacy. You can't make that argument against the Empire at all really because of Jarl B and the fact there is tons of evidence in every Hold/City that the Empire does respect Nord traditions. And Tullius doesn't FORCE Jarl B to do anything. Other than allowing Imperial traffic through his city, the Empire has no bearing on him or how he rules. Tullius has to more or less, get down on his knees and lick the Jarl's balls for him to do anything for the Empire.

 

Ulfric and Jarl B have a longstanding feud anyways.

 

For example, the Jarls rule their people and not all of them agree with the Empire. Jarl B even allows Talos worship AND allows people to openly speak out against the Empire, while the Empire allows it. Jarl B alone proves the Empire MORE than respects Nord tradition.

 

That isn't the issue here. Or if you prefer, how many times has Ulfric and the Stormcloaks violated Nord tradition?

 

- Will not support Elisif's right *by tradition* to have her proper title as High Queen.

 

- Ulfric uses the Thu'um in a disgraceful manner, not giving honor to the Gods BECAUSE there was absolutely no need to use the Voice against Torygg. And this guy Ulfric was a Grey-Beard! Would the Grey-Beards have shouted Torygg down like he did? And the answer is no. There are plaques on the way up High Hrothgar which warn against misusing the Voice. The Voice is a special gift but is not to be abused. That broke the legitimacy of the duel, right there because there is no honor in shouting down an adversary who at very least can't shout back!

 

- Stormcloaks/Ulfric not respecting Forsworn traditions by allowing them to honor their Gods.

 

- Ulfric surrendered to the Empire instead of dying a Glorious death, worthy of Ysgramor.

 

- Furthermore, Ulfric does not even give Tullius a trial or accept his surrender at the end. This is another way of proving Ulfric has no real honor. Principle above all, even in the face of your enemy. During the American Revolution, did GW hang Corn Wallace?

 

- The Stormcloak Jarls will undoubtedly be little pawns of Ulfric. Ulfric's cause is Charismatic after all and there Ultimate purpose is to MAKE him High King of Skyrim.

 

- And again, it's not Ulfric's business who the moot chooses to be High King or Queen, to a certain degree. That's why the moot votes. His act of murdering Torygg proves at least to me, he has no intention of allowing the moot to choose freely. They chose Torygg, he didn't like their choice so he arranged his assassination, hehehe in full view of the court.

 

- During the Battle for Whiterun, Ulfric does not show up to meet the challenge he offered to Jarl B. He sends another in his stead.

 

 

Still want to argue it's the Empire who isn't respecting Nord traditions?

 

The only thing really wrong with the Empire is Titus Mede II. And his rule is coming to an end. Whenver I take the Imperial Oath to every citizen of the Empire, it gives me goose bumps. Yeah I know it's a game, but damn that's, that's making a real difference. Tullius who you bastards despise, even says at the end the Thalmor's days are numbered because relations between them are falling apart. Once the Civil War is over, the Thalmor will have no more reason to do do anything in Skyirm because the Empire kept it's word. And when the Thalmor start cutting off heads, I think I'd rather stand with Tullius because I know he would stand with me. Can anyone say the same for Ulfric? Ulfric? Hey guys, where did Mr Worldwide run off to this time???

 

 

"The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim." - Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE !!!

Edited July 10, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Deleted4404112User]

The Empire seems to be under control from the Thalmor who only care for the advancement of their own race. General Tullius just wants retribution against Ulfric and is blinded by the true threat to both the Empire and the Stormcloaks. Ulfric is the rightful leader for Skyrim because he wants to lead his true people to honor and glory by kicking out the Thalmor and eventually taking the fight to summerset isle. The empire isn't fully capable enough to fight the Thalmor and that's why the great war had to be postponed as the Thalmor wizard said in the embassy. There should've been an actual legitimate unification of Skyrim so that the Thalmor could have been pushed out and fought by both sides. The Empire was too weak to stand up to the Thalmor.

[Deleted4666244User]

hey all, look at this the duel with Torygg means nothing for Ulfric if he just switches Jarls that will vote for him. plus the Duel may have been legal but was overkill, Shout his weapon out of his hand then kill him, even though you are better than him in battle? Despicable, cowardly even. even if it was legal, Ulfric had no reason to use a shout at all. needless to say Ulfric may not have murdered Torygg by law of the land, but by law of the voice, he did.

[RighthandofSithis]

That isn't the issue here. Or if you prefer, how many times has Ulfric and the Stormcloaks violated Nord tradition?

 

- Will not support Elisif's right *by tradition* to have her proper title as High Queen.

 

- Ulfric uses the Thu'um in a disgraceful manner, not giving honor to the Gods BECAUSE there was absolutely no need to use the Voice against Torygg. And this guy Ulfric was a Grey-Beard! Would the Grey-Beards have shouted Torygg down like he did? And the answer is no. There are plaques on the way up High Hrothgar which warn against misusing the Voice. The Voice is a special gift but is not to be abused. That broke the legitimacy of the duel, right there because there is no honor in shouting down an adversary who at very least can't shout back!

 

- Stormcloaks/Ulfric not respecting Forsworn traditions by allowing them to honor their Gods.

 

- Furthermore, Ulfric does not even give Tullius a trial or accept his surrender at the end. This is another way of proving Ulfric has no real honor. Principle above all, even in the face of your enemy. During the American Revolution, did GW hang Corn Wallace?

 

- And again, it's not Ulfric's business who the moot chooses to be High King or Queen, to a certain degree. That's why the moot votes. His act of murdering Torygg proves at least to me, he has no intention of allowing the moot to choose freely. They chose Torygg, he didn't like their choice so he arranged his assassination, hehehe in full view of the court.

 

Well, I haven't been as active here as I used to be, but its great to debate with you again.

 

Now, to business:

 

1. Ulfric challenged Torygg to a duel, and thus was entitled to his title and lands. However, Elisif is indeed the widow of Torygg, and has a strong case in her own right. The Civil War is a power (and class) struggle.

 

2. Ulfric is not a Greybeard, but more of a Tongue. The Greybeards do indeed follow the Way of the Voice, and while Ulfric did train with them, he did not accept that philosophy. This is the same with the Player character. Can any of us claim to not have used the Thu'um just because we can?

 

3. The Empire opposes the Forsworn just as much as Ulfric, and both sides deny the Reachmen the worship of the Daedra (I mean, since the Oblivion Crisis, that has never been looked upon nicely). Furthermore, never has it been stated that Nord tradition dictates they need to respect the religious views of the Reachmen.

 

4. Neither is Ulfric given a fair trial at the start of the game. Did the French give Louis a 'fair' trial? Did the Bolsheviks give Nicholas a hearing? Welcome to revolution. It is bloody and the victor must secure his authority immediately.

 

5.Well, maybe not. However, the Empire does not permit the Moot such independence either. Throughout the history of the Empire, it has attempted (and often succeeded) in manipulating the politics of the provinces so as to secure its own power. Going back to Tiber Septim, he used the Numidium to crush neutral kings so he could replace them with Imperial loyalists. Then to Uriel VII, who had used the Blades to secure the loyalty of Daggerfall, Wayrest and Sentinel (while the Dragon Break did do many other things). Then he strengthened King Helseth's hold on Morrowind, and secured the loyalty of the Nerevarine (or attempted to).

 

In Skyrim, the Empire had always supported the Jarl's of Solitude, as they were always the most loyal to the Empire. The War of the Red Diamond was one of the only examples where Skyrim did not submit to Cyrodiil.

 

I will also mention that Ulfric's people generally follow him with a passion. Of course this is likely caused by propaganda on his part. However, the people of Solitude, such as Beirand, tend to serve the Empirew not because of any strong loyalty or love of it, but more out of a sense of duty to Solitude (and as a means of survival).