Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[RileyEvan]

I've always wanted to help the Dominion get a better foothold in Skyrim. Did anyone actually turn down the Thalmore request in Markarth? I often play as a High Elf and every time someone is stupid enough to badmouth the Dominion, they find themselves in an early grave. Who did they think I would side with? Maybe it would be too much for the existing game to handle NPC fear of saying the wrong word to a possible Dominion agent.

[MacSuibhne]

Think of any totalitarian system you ever heard of in our world. What are the common elements to their oppression? Secret police (justiciars). Disappearances (Thorald and Etienne Rarnis). The midnight knock on the door. Purges. Gulags and torture dungeons. Collaborators and sycophants within the population (Gissur and Shavari), leading to neighbor fearing neighbor and parents fearing their own children. Political control officers overseeing those who occupy vital positions (Ancano). Economic manipulations meant to reduce the lower levels of society to grinding poverty, or worse.

 

This is exactly the kind of system that the Thalmor are creating in Skyrim and have presumably created in Cyrodiil. It doesn't take much of this for a population to become too demoralized and weak to ever hope to strike back effectively. The social fabric unravels as the bonds of trust are broken. Even if there is a resistance movement, such movements have never freed their countrymen by themselves, but have only achieved their goals with the help of outside forces. What outside force is going to aid a Skyrim resistance if they allow the Thalmor to fully establish a presence? Resistance movements can also be very fragile, subject to betrayal from within and from civilians living in fear of retaliatory strikes that will decimate them every time the resistance kills one Thalmor.

 

If Ulfric had chosen not to rebel but to wait until the Empire was ready to strike back, the Thalmor would have had more time to cement their control over both Skyrim and Cyrodiil. How prepared would Skyrim really be to fight after another decade or two of this? How prepared will Cyrodiil be? And what useful strength can either build when their provinces are full of spies and collaborators feeding information to the Dominion on troop numbers, training, readiness, locations, and plans?

 

If Ulfric kicks out the Thalmor now, before it is too late, then Skyrim has a chance to build its strength without the destructive influence of the Thalmor occupation, not to mention the destructive effect of the resources being bled out by Cyrodiil. However, he has no way to drive out the Thalmor without first dealing with the Empire that is backing them up. If Ulfric had made, say, the Thalmor Embassy his first target, does anyone really think the Legions would have stood around with their thumbs up their butts? As long as the Empire is not willing to repudiate Skyrim as it did Hammerfell, the Empire is obligated to retaliate for any attacks on the Thalmor. And it is clear that the Empire is not willing to let Skyrim go because they want the resources even at the cost of making Skyrim less fit to fight in the long run.

 

 

+1 There are so few voices of reason and apparent maturity on this forum, I felt compelled to quote your whole post. It bears repeating.

[Relativelybest]

So, I just played through No One Escapes Cidhna Mine, and something occured to me - if the Stormcloak aligned Nords deserve their own independant kingdom in their own ancestral land where they are free to practice their own religion, doesn't the same thing apply to the Forsworn?

 

If we're talking strictly about principle, then yes. Once we factor in that the Forsworn have degenerated into bloodthirsty primitive tribesmen...eh not so much.

 

I fail to see what their level of civilization has to do with it. You might as well say the Stormcloaks are more primitive than the Imperial Legion.

 

Besides, the Forsworn clearly weren't that primitive anyway. They had freaking sleeper agents in Markarth pretending to be ordinary townspeople, for crying out loud. One of them lived in a big fancy house with servants and everything. And they were actively recruiting people who felt oppressed by the Nords.

 

Were they bloodthirsty killers? Sure! But then again, you can't walk by a pair of Stormcloaks without hearing them talk about how much they like killing imperials, so really, I don't see what the big differance is.

 

There are some pretty clear differences between the situation of the Stormcloaks and the situation of the Forsworn, despite the superficial parallels. The Stormcloaks are rising against a wrong that was committed on them. The Forsworn are rising against a wrong that was committed on their distant ancestors hundreds of years ago. As Bothela, the Reachwoman who owns the Hag's Cure, says, the Forsworn are trying to restore a way of life that was over long ago.

 

Suppose that the U.S. government signed a treaty demanding the abolition of Christianity and some Christians started a rebellion to restore their religious freedom. Suppose at the same time a group of Seminoles started slaughtering people in Florida while demanding that the lands stolen from their ancestors be returned to them. Would you consider the two rebellions to be equivalent?

 

You are incorrect: Many of the Forsworn became Forsworn in response feeling oppressed and mistreated by the Nord rulers. Pretty much everyone in Cidhna Mine said they only joined up after being wrongly accused of being Forsworn, because after the uprising the Nords tossed anyone they even suspected to be a Forsworn into the mines. They are specifically in it because they wanted to overthrow what they see as their abusive overlords.

 

Besides, as far as I can tell, the point of this thread was to argue that the Skyrim Nords have some kind of intrinsic right as a distinct group of free people to rule themselves. Well, if they have that right, then so does the Reachmen.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Relativelybest

[Kraeten]

But then again, you can't walk by a pair of Stormcloaks without hearing them talk about how much they like killing imperials, so really, I don't see what the big differance is.

 

Are the Stormcloaks guilty of human sacrifice? No.

Are the Stormcloaks guilty of indiscriminate murder? No.

Are the Stormcloaks guilty of consorting with twisted Hagravens? No.

 

Those add up to a considerable difference to me.

 

I've always wanted to help the Dominion get a better foothold in Skyrim. Did anyone actually turn down the Thalmore request in Markarth

 

I've turned them down every time. Unfortunately the higher ups aren't nearly so eager to throw themselves onto my axe.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Kraeten

[djinx187]

If Ulfric had made, say, the Thalmor Embassy his first target, does anyone really think the Legions would have stood around with their thumbs up their butts? As long as the Empire is not willing to repudiate Skyrim as it did Hammerfell, the Empire is obligated to retaliate for any attacks on the Thalmor. And it is clear that the Empire is not willing to let Skyrim go because they want the resources even at the cost of making Skyrim less fit to fight in the long run.

 

 

The relationship between the Empire and the Thalmor is rocky and anything that disturbs the balance is a benefit. The Thalmor presence in Skyrim isn't that large right now so taking it out while it is still small would reduce the influence they have there. The Empire would have to deal with the Thalmor who would be upset. That is the key part adding the elves in to the mix complicates things for the empire and puts more options on the table for the Stormcloaks. Who knows if the Thalmor were mad enough the Empire could of even renounced Skyrim or even started the war against the Thalmor. Both options to me are better then civil war even though that would still be a choice.

Edited July 24, 2012 by djinx187

[imperistan]

Given the severe amount of pages to go over I'm going to limit my quotations to the start of each poster's post that I respond to.

 

Just like there's no guarantee that by sundering the Empire any union between the surviving countries will be made.

 

Yes, but given what I see in the game and can deduce from various sources, I find that putting hope in the Stormcloaks is not only smarter but also far more likely to turn out the preferred outcome. Its a long shot at best to expect the Empire to be able keep everyone together (and for that matter, get everyone back together) even if its just for the war against the Dominion. Between Hammerfel and whatever dissidents will remain in Skyrim (you'd have to be kidding if you told me there wouldn't still be a movement for Skyrim's independence even after Ulfric is defeated) the Empire is eventually going to sunder again. Cyrodiil, no matter the outcome of the civil war, is in all likelihood going to be decimated again, so its allegiance isn't going to matter much to anyone.

 

So rather than put a hope on mankind being able to unite under the Empire's banner now just for it to fall apart again anyway, I'd rather the Empire be cast aside so a new unity can be had that will last beyond the next war. That isn't to say that that unity couldn't also fall apart, but in my opinion its far more likely to hold post-GW2.

 

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So the best way to go then, is to only take things at face value and if the information isn't there, just not bother arguing about it. Go tell that to these guys: http://forums.bethsoft.com/forum/16-elder-scrolls-lore/

 

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So are you just being the devil's advocate or do you seriously think that it isn't reasonable to be offered protection while you freely and openly worship and then when you pay your dues demand it if it isn't given?

 

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Gender inequality? Yes, though not to the degree it was in our world. Though it should be noted that its the unique nature of the TES universe that this is the way it is.

 

Racial inequality? Hell yes. No explanation needed on that one.

 

Wealth inequality? Hell yes. You'll notice that the vast majority of those in the middle are generally warriors and other kinds of men of fortune, which in a feudal society tended to be their own class rooted on either side of the scale, rather than an independent class.

 

The general populace is illiterate, or at the very least far from educated. And even if we want to presume that, there's still just the pure lack of information flowing to the general populace. Most may very well be literate and possibly even educated to some degree, but they may as well not be for all they know and ever will know. It isn't easy in such a society to have great knowledge of the world you live in when news of places beyond the village wall comes from your local pub (and only whenever some stranger wanders in) and libraries only exist where the wealthy or the magical congregate (and usually you have to be one of the two to get in on those libraries).

 

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You were going on about the silly Magic > Melee > Ranged > Magic triangle, and not how it would really work. In a realistic fantasy world, magic would trump absolutely everything period, but only the seldom few would be able to wield it to any great degree, and definitely not so much that they can take on armies with it alone. Think Gandalf, not Harry Potter.

 

(Note: I look at this debate as if TES were a realistic fantasy world (sans game mechanics) and not an unrealistic fantasy world clouded in game mechanics)

 

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And so you agree with me. Quaint. :)

 

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That's like saying there's an actual choice between dying slowly and miserably or dying quickly and painlessly. \\

 

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But again, you can't just take it at face value. If we can take poems at face value just because there's no other collaborating stories or evidence then obviously dragon's are real in our world. All the different god's of all the different cultures all exist and existed on this world at one point or another. There really was a monster named Grendel and King Arthur did exist as did Merlin.

 

Yes, but you are missing one very important factor. If Skyrim throws off the empire, Skyrim is weaker, too. The Thalmor desire Skyrim's turmoil, and failing that, they'd settle for Skyrim's independence, because that will make them easier to control.

 

The Dominion only desires strife so that everyone is weakened. The obvious solution is to end the war as swiftly as possible, but the only way to do that is to fight the war through. The Imperials won't pay any mind to any negotiation of peace that will actually satisfy what both sides want, and Ulfric has no reason to stop his war when it would render everything he's done pointless (and spell his death as well, pointless and all) and when the Imperials won't stop the war anyway. They'll keep going until Ulfric is dead.

 

Indeed, if it weren't for the Dragonborn being able to take a side (and thus lead to a very swift ending of the war for whatever side the Dragonborn chooses) then yes things would be very, very bad.

 

Right and wrong in this game are based on morals and loyalties. Both are matters of opinion.

 

Reducing things down to "right and wrong" is fairly, well, gross for lack of a better word. Namely because the concept of "right and wrong" is about as meaningless as a flibbergatippetjagermeister. Nothing in this universe nor in the TES universe is nearly as clear cut as "right and wrong".

 

How does a sentence become murder?

 

Death by any other thing than natural causes is murder. Whatever abstract thought we come up with to call X murder "justified" just clouds the issue to satisfy our emotions. But before anyone comes along with the obvious rebuttal to that, just remember that there is nothing inherently right or wrong about murder.

 

It is their beliefs which make them monsters not that morality is only an opinion.

 

In world of murderers and rapists, the man who is content to play his fiddle is the greatest villain of all time.

 

Now that I would actually agree with...I do believe Ulfric would be just the kind of General needed....He is a prime leader of Armies, not a leader of Nations....there is a big difference....he should have been utilized for his strengths.

 

Indeed, and even if Ulfric wins the ability to rule over Skyrim (or more of Tamriel) it isn't going to matter as much. He'll still be able to lead the army against the Dominion (which we both agree he'd be great at) and then afterwords, no matter your opinion of the man we only need to deal with him for no longer than a couple decades at best. In less than 50 years he'll either be dead, deposed, or getting ready to give up his crown to an heir. He may not be the greatest man to lead in peace time, but he isn't so terrible that he's going to reverse the concept of hygiene and encourage public lynchings and rape-fests.

 

Bret, you're ignoring the fact that the Thalmor didn't have any reason to be in Skyrim until Ulfric gave it to them with the Markarth incident.

 

Yes, because an agency bent on eliminating the worship of Talos completely isn't going to have a reason to insert itself into a country where more than 80% of the population would have adored the god.

[BrettM]

Bret, you're ignoring the fact that the Thalmor didn't have any reason to be in Skyrim until Ulfric gave it to them with the Markarth incident.

I've addressed this before, though perhaps not in this thread, so I'm not ignoring it. The Thalmor always had a long-term plan to move in on Skyrim. They took Ulfric prisoner during the Great War and then let him escape because they decided that he, as the son of the Jarl of Windhelm, could be useful to them in the future. How could he be useful unless they were already planning ahead to the time when they'd enter Skyrim, even before the Great War was over? They had their own reasons for being in Skyrim, and all they needed was an excuse. If Ulfric hadn't managed to give them that excuse, they would have found some other way.

 

However, they would have had to have been pretty stupid not to expect SOME sort of incident in Skyrim that would allow them to yell "treaty violation" and demand satisfaction. They weren't caught by surprise one day and didn't say "gee, I guess we'd better do something about that even though we had no prior intention of having a presence in Skyrim." To place the blame on Ulfric is to portray the Thalmor as being simple opportunists of rather low intelligence. The truth is that they are far more than that. They are machiavellian manipulators who worked to set up a situation that gave them such an opportunity. It doesn't matter whether Ulfric was an actual agent or just a patsy, the ultimate blame must go to the Thalmor who stacked the deck.

[MacSuibhne]

It is well to remember that the Empire engineered the whole Markarth Incident. Ulfric was loyal to the Empire until they arrested him and betrayed the promise made to engage his help in putting down the Forsworn and recovering Cidhna mine and other valuable resources for the Empire.

 

I'm not convinced that by the terms of that craven treaty (the WGC), the Empire had any option but to accede to the Dominion's demands to abrogate the promise made to Ulfric. Throwing him in jail is another matter, however.

 

And in any event, if the Empire cannot, or, more importantly, will not, protect its own citizens...treaty or no treaty...against murder and the depredations of a foreign power, it has no legitimate claim to suzerainty over Skyrim.

 

That, in a nutshell, is what the Stormcloak Rebellion is all about.

 

Parenthetically but to the point, I was roaming about down near Brittleshin Pass yesterday and ran across an out-of-the-way Talos shrine. Scattered about the base of the shrine were five or six dead Talos worshipers. My first thought was "this has to be the work of the Thalmor." So, I widened my search.

 

Sure enough, off to the edge of a low cliff there was also a dead Justicar.

Edited July 24, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Kraeten]

 

Yes, but given what I see in the game and can deduce from various sources, I find that putting hope in the Stormcloaks is not only smarter but also far more likely to turn out the preferred outcome. Its a long shot at best to expect the Empire to be able keep everyone together (and for that matter, get everyone back together) even if its just for the war against the Dominion.

A long shot? Not really. By crushing Ulfric the Empire not only removes a dangerous revolutionary but also makes a powerful statement "We're not dead yet". After the second Great War, it's anybody's guess.

 

So are you just being the devil's advocate or do you seriously think that it isn't reasonable to be offered protection while you freely and openly worship and then when you pay your dues demand it if it isn't given?

Mostly it's devil's advocate. I'm not sure anyone would realistically give the Empire another chance after they'd unceremoniously carted you off to be executed. To have the understanding/patience to forgive that would be.....well quite unusual to say the least. As for religious freedom...I'm generally happy that people have it. When that freedom jeopardizes people's lives though, I tend to stop being so open minded. Given that worship apparently keeps the world of Elder Scrolls turning, this is a more precarious situation than any RL equivalent of religious persecution.

 

Racial inequality? Hell yes. No explanation needed on that one.

It is hardly to the same degree as our medieval equivalent.

 

You'll notice that the vast majority of those in the middle are generally warriors and other kinds of men of fortune, which in a feudal society tended to be their own class rooted on either side of the scale, rather than an independent class.

Everyone in Skyrim has for the most part a good home, and isn't starving. That's a considerable step up from our own history.

 

And even if we want to presume that, there's still just the pure lack of information flowing to the general populace.

There isn't much to presume. Do you seriously think the majority of Nords own books for any other reason than the fact they can read them? As for the general populace being poorly informed, that should go without saying. Maybe when a dwemer radio is found that may change. :P

 

In a realistic fantasy world, magic would trump absolutely everything period, but only the seldom few would be able to wield it to any great degree, and definitely not so much that they can take on armies with it alone. Think Gandalf, not Harry Potter.

Except in this setting, we have races of people with a natural affinity for magic. This is especially true for the Altmer.

 

That's like saying there's an actual choice between dying slowly and miserably or dying quickly and painlessly.

That choice is quite valuable to some.

 

But again, you can't just take it at face value. If we can take poems at face value just because there's no other collaborating stories

 

I'm not talking about the real world, nor am I saying the logic being applied here should be applied elsewhere. I rarely bother making arguments that can be applied universally.

 

It is well to remember that the Empire engineered the whole Markarth Incident.

 

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Edited July 24, 2012 by Kraeten

[fraquar]

Crushing a subject never makes a powerful statement - your enemies expect you to squash rebellions in your territories. It's when you DON'T is when it makes a very powerful statement to you adversaries - you are way more vulnerable than they expected and it emboldens them to act.

 

Cue France and Spain in the American Revolutionary war.