Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[djinx187]

When you live in a greyscale world you never see the edge of the cliff until you've walked off of it. Every tyrant, every monster that ever lived believed that morality and right and wrong were a matters of opinion. In such a world, anything can be justified, no matter how heinous...and has been and will be, using the very same arguments that you use.

 

The worst monsters do not believe morality is a matter of opinion it is they believe differently in what is right or wrong. That is what made them monsters. They believe that it is morally acceptable to murder,rape,pillage,insert bad things here. It is their beliefs which make them monsters not that morality is only an opinion.

 

 

so how do you define what is right and what is wrong? Who decides what is right and wrong? What makes something right or something wrong, the majority, the minority, the law, religion?

 

If 99% of the world said it was ok to drag me out of my house and murder me would that make it right? ( my personal belief is a big no btw)

If the law said the same thing would that make it right? ( yup still no for me)

If it was written long ago in some old dusty book does that make it right? (again for me still a big fat no)

If it was told in church would that make it right? ( would so avoid that church if they said that)

 

 

The whole stormcloak/imperial thing I can't back the stormcloaks because I believe to attack the root of the problem(The Thalmor). The Stormcloaks are just getting in the way with a civil war. ClonePatrol's last paragraph pretty much sums up my belief very very nicely. Oh and can't forget Ulfric's track record for getting captured shortly after making a big play. Just seems like everything that guy touches just becomes worse off then before. All I can think about is if Skyrim is solo, Ulfric is High King, then toss in that odd tower theory that was going around, with his luck well the world would pretty much end. The whole extinction of mankind kinda puts the hold on freedom of religion. Can't pray to your gods if your dead. (Ok maybe not the best choice of words for the Elder Scrolls world considering souls go everywhere)

[fraquar]

You can't attack the root of the problem without a willing Empire though - thats a huge problem. This Civil War is only a spec in the time that has passed since they signed the treaty and have still done absolutely nothing. The Stormcloaks and their uprising are only a convenient excuse - wooo, we really want to tackle the Thalmor but you Ulfric are spoiling our party? Yeah, right.

 

The truth is Ulfric commanding troops is one of the biggest wasted assets the Empire has (had) - they should have been using him to fight the Thalmor, and he simply has grown tired of waiting for something that is never gonna happen in his lifetime unless he acts.

Edited July 23, 2012 by fraquar

[StayFrosty05]

You can't attack the root of the problem without a willing Empire though - thats a huge problem. This Civil War is only a spec in the time that has passed since they signed the treaty and have still done absolutely nothing. The Stormcloaks and their uprising are only a convenient excuse - wooo, we really want to tackle the Thalmor but you Ulfric are spoiling our party? Yeah, right.

 

The truth is Ulfric commanding troops is one of the biggest wasted assets the Empire has (had) - they should have been using him to fight the Thalmor, and he simply has grown tired of waiting for something that is never gonna happen in his lifetime unless he acts.

 

 

Now that I would actually agree with...I do believe Ulfric would be just the kind of General needed....He is a prime leader of Armies, not a leader of Nations....there is a big difference....he should have been utilized for his strengths.

[Stemin]

So trying to argue that one side of the game is morally better is pointless because it is a matter of perspective and does depend on what role you are playing.

Since morals break down to simply someone's reason why something is right or wrong, I'd say it's just the opposite of pointless.

 

Dismissing it as an opinion is a nice excuse to not worry about whether or not what you're doing is wrong.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Stemin

[SFBryan18]

So trying to argue that one side of the game is morally better is pointless because it is a matter of perspective and does depend on what role you are playing.

Since morals break down to simply someone's reason why something is right or wrong, I'd say it's just the opposite of pointless.

 

Dismissing it as an opinion is a nice excuse to not worry about whether or not what you're doing is wrong.

 

Fine. Go ahead and try to preach to people over the internet. If you think there's a point, that is also your opinion and I can't stop you. Have a nice time because I think it's pointless and I'm done. I don't care who's right or wrong because this troll bait topic goes on forever and I have better stuff to do. Later.

 

If I wasn't playing a role, I'd side with the Thalmor because religion is... <insert opinion> And people should... <insert final solution>

[BrettM]

Think of any totalitarian system you ever heard of in our world. What are the common elements to their oppression? Secret police (justiciars). Disappearances (Thorald and Etienne Rarnis). The midnight knock on the door. Purges. Gulags and torture dungeons. Collaborators and sycophants within the population (Gissur and Shavari), leading to neighbor fearing neighbor and parents fearing their own children. Political control officers overseeing those who occupy vital positions (Ancano). Economic manipulations meant to reduce the lower levels of society to grinding poverty, or worse.

 

This is exactly the kind of system that the Thalmor are creating in Skyrim and have presumably created in Cyrodiil. It doesn't take much of this for a population to become too demoralized and weak to ever hope to strike back effectively. The social fabric unravels as the bonds of trust are broken. Even if there is a resistance movement, such movements have never freed their countrymen by themselves, but have only achieved their goals with the help of outside forces. What outside force is going to aid a Skyrim resistance if they allow the Thalmor to fully establish a presence? Resistance movements can also be very fragile, subject to betrayal from within and from civilians living in fear of retaliatory strikes that will decimate them every time the resistance kills one Thalmor.

 

If Ulfric had chosen not to rebel but to wait until the Empire was ready to strike back, the Thalmor would have had more time to cement their control over both Skyrim and Cyrodiil. How prepared would Skyrim really be to fight after another decade or two of this? How prepared will Cyrodiil be? And what useful strength can either build when their provinces are full of spies and collaborators feeding information to the Dominion on troop numbers, training, readiness, locations, and plans?

 

If Ulfric kicks out the Thalmor now, before it is too late, then Skyrim has a chance to build its strength without the destructive influence of the Thalmor occupation, not to mention the destructive effect of the resources being bled out by Cyrodiil. However, he has no way to drive out the Thalmor without first dealing with the Empire that is backing them up. If Ulfric had made, say, the Thalmor Embassy his first target, does anyone really think the Legions would have stood around with their thumbs up their butts? As long as the Empire is not willing to repudiate Skyrim as it did Hammerfell, the Empire is obligated to retaliate for any attacks on the Thalmor. And it is clear that the Empire is not willing to let Skyrim go because they want the resources even at the cost of making Skyrim less fit to fight in the long run.

[Stemin]

Think of any totalitarian system you ever heard of in our world. What are the common elements to their oppression? Secret police (justiciars). Disappearances (Thorald and Etienne Rarnis). The midnight knock on the door. Purges. Gulags and torture dungeons. Collaborators and sycophants within the population (Gissur and Shavari), leading to neighbor fearing neighbor and parents fearing their own children. Political control officers overseeing those who occupy vital positions (Ancano). Economic manipulations meant to reduce the lower levels of society to grinding poverty, or worse.

 

This is exactly the kind of system that the Thalmor are creating in Skyrim and have presumably created in Cyrodiil. It doesn't take much of this for a population to become too demoralized and weak to ever hope to strike back effectively. The social fabric unravels as the bonds of trust are broken. Even if there is a resistance movement, such movements have never freed their countrymen by themselves, but have only achieved their goals with the help of outside forces. What outside force is going to aid a Skyrim resistance if they allow the Thalmor to fully establish a presence? Resistance movements can also be very fragile, subject to betrayal from within and from civilians living in fear of retaliatory strikes that will decimate them every time the resistance kills one Thalmor.

 

If Ulfric had chosen not to rebel but to wait until the Empire was ready to strike back, the Thalmor would have had more time to cement their control over both Skyrim and Cyrodiil. How prepared would Skyrim really be to fight after another decade or two of this? How prepared will Cyrodiil be? And what useful strength can either build when their provinces are full of spies and collaborators feeding information to the Dominion on troop numbers, training, readiness, locations, and plans?

 

If Ulfric kicks out the Thalmor now, before it is too late, then Skyrim has a chance to build its strength without the destructive influence of the Thalmor occupation, not to mention the destructive effect of the resources being bled out by Cyrodiil. However, he has no way to drive out the Thalmor without first dealing with the Empire that is backing them up. If Ulfric had made, say, the Thalmor Embassy his first target, does anyone really think the Legions would have stood around with their thumbs up their butts? As long as the Empire is not willing to repudiate Skyrim as it did Hammerfell, the Empire is obligated to retaliate for any attacks on the Thalmor. And it is clear that the Empire is not willing to let Skyrim go because they want the resources even at the cost of making Skyrim less fit to fight in the long run.

 

Bret, you're ignoring the fact that the Thalmor didn't have any reason to be in Skyrim until Ulfric gave it to them with the Markarth incident.

[fraquar]

Didn't the Empire sanction Ulfric taking back The Reach?

 

Edit: Besides, once that treaty was signed that basically gave the Thalmor carte blanche to enforce the treaty anywhere - anytime - Ulfric or no Ulfric.

Edited July 24, 2012 by fraquar

[StayFrosty05]

So trying to argue that one side of the game is morally better is pointless because it is a matter of perspective and does depend on what role you are playing.

Since morals break down to simply someone's reason why something is right or wrong, I'd say it's just the opposite of pointless.

 

Dismissing it as an opinion is a nice excuse to not worry about whether or not what you're doing is wrong.

 

Now your just being pedantic Stemin...you are just trying to enforce opinions to then be challenged and beaten down....Morality is ambiguous at the best of times...all depending on clime, society, expectation, religion, etc...it is too big a topic, prone to too much interference and flaring of tempers to be discussed at any length on this forum.

[fraquar]

I'd simply expect more from a General presiding over that event - at least unbind their hands before chopping off their head. Let a fellow warrior at least die with a little dignity.

 

Uhm. Ok. And that doesn't seem like a security risk to you?

 

With 2 archers, 4 soliders a Captain and a General, along with the henchman? No, if they can't handle one unarmed man they got no business calling themselves soldiers. These guys know their fate already, short of a Dragon raining on their parade they are dead men walking.