Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[imperistan]

The same Emperor who is living the very last of his days by the time the game takes place. You say you fight for a chance of something new and stronger to take the Empire's place. Well the chief problem, the Empire's leadership, is on its way out the door.

 

Problem is, no on else knows that, and definitely not for certain. And besides that, there's no guarantee that whoever would end up replacing TM2 would actually be any better.

 

Yes, your speculations were built from good sources and observations. But they're still not fact. Until YOU can swallow that detail I'm not sure you have much to offer.

 

And yet they're still the most likely course of events, and thats what we have to rely on. If we can only take what we can see at face value, then it fundamentally ruins the point of even arguing about any of this, as all threads of argument will inevitably just end in "we can't know X, so we can't argue one way or the other about it". My timelines and explanations of events are reasonable and well supported enough that they can serve as a basis for argument rather than the "unknown" that we would have as a basis if we only took things at face value.

 

If you want to dispute anything, thats one thing, but to outright deny those things on the basis of them not being 100% fact (Hint: History is not 100% fact, yet you'd never see this problem come up) is to really miss the point of the debate.

 

Even with spoiler tags my posts are dragging across the page. But fine.

 

I believe he was referring to me quoting a few of my past (larege) posts without putting the whole thing in a spoiler tag, not the simple quoting of sentences.

 

Ulfric had already tried to undermine the white gold concordant once already, and during that incident the Empire made it clear they couldn't be trusted to uphold the Concordant. The Thalmor had every right to observe the truce negotiations. There, your argument of Thalmor power has been utterly shot down.

 

Except they didn't, because the council could never have touched upon the WGC. This wasn't a negotiation to end the war, it was a negotiation for cease fire, big difference. The terms of the WGC are irrelevant to a cease fire.

 

If it was negotiation to end the war, the Thalmor still wouldn't have jurisdiction as if the Empire is made whole again, the terms of the WGC would never be touched upon as if they were then the negotiations would break down as the two sides reach an impasse. And if the WGC would be touched upon without the negotiations breaking down, then the Thalmor still wouldn't have any business there because the Empire wouldn't have allowed them there period. If the Empire is going to break the WGC, it will at least want some small chance at surprise.

 

And if Skyrim is given independence the Thalmor still have no jurisdiction because Skyrim would no longer be a part of the Empire, and as such no longer under the terms of the WGC.

 

The provinces of the Empire are considerably more civilized than our medieval equivalents.

 

But not by much.

 

In which case you have no reason to be laughing. Perhaps you think lol substitutes as an argument, it doesn't.

 

Sorry if it wasn't obvious to you that I was laughing at the notion that the Dominion's soldiers had better weapons than the soldiers of Skyrim or the Empire or whoever else.

 

Magic trumps swords and armor, and the Altmer have a natural affinity for the arcane. One could argue they have the greatest affinity for magic. Now observe the Great War, one race of elves against the three/four greatest human countries. If we look at the landmasses alone, the Altmer should have been crushed soundly and yet they gave everyone a run for their money.

 

And arrows trump magic.

 

And again, I've already explained how the Dominion did so well in the Great War. And again, magic had little to do with it.

 

Cyrodiil is THE most important part of the Empire. It not only represents the seat of the Emperor but also the heart of the Empire. If it had fallen entirely the Emperor would have little authority to command the other provinces. Skyrim might be loyal, but I don't expect Hammerfell or High Rock to take orders from some old man sitting on a pile of ashes.

 

If the power of the Emperor relies on the existence of a city or a province, then his power is already failing. If he can't command his Empire through the sheer weight of the fact that he is the Emperor, then no physical throne is going to save him in the end.

 

I've already mentioned this elsewhere...so..great that you're keeping up.

 

You said this:

 

Hammerfell made its choice. They didn't want the peace the White Gold Concordant offered, so they were left to fight the battle they apparently still had a taste for.

 

Which implies that you think Hammerfel only kept on fighting just because it was war mongering. Hence my response.

 

It's part of the lore. The onus is on you to disprove it and you can't.

 

Apparently, poems are supposed to be taken 100% literally and can't possibly be a pure creation as opposed to an objective recording of events.

 

Please feel free to quote me one of my posts where I actually said that my disdain for Windcaller was supposed to be taken as 100% fact (and isn't just you reaching to make it look like I was trying to say it was fact).

 

Hint: Me asserting my opinions =/= me saying my opinions are fact.

[Kraeten]

And besides that, there's no guarantee that whoever would end up replacing TM2 would actually be any better.

 

Just like there's no guarantee that by sundering the Empire any union between the surviving countries will be made. You're still left with just a hope regardless of which side you choose. On one side you hope the Empire can find the courage/strength to oppose the Dominion again. On the other you hope Ulfric will take the fight to the Dominion, and perhaps foster a new alliance of mankind.

 

If we can only take what we can see at face value, then it fundamentally ruins the point of even arguing about any of this, as all threads of argument will inevitably just end in "we can't know X, so we can't argue one way or the other about it".

 

Which is the best way to go about it. Instead of filling in the blank for ourselves.

 

Except they didn't, because the council could never have touched upon the WGC. This wasn't a negotiation to end the war, it was a negotiation for cease fire, big difference. The terms of the WGC are irrelevant to a cease fire.

 

The negotiation to turn Markarth back over to the Igmund shouldn't have touched on the WGC either, but it DID. You've lost this one.

 

But not by much.

 

Not by much? Let's see....is slavery rampant at this time in Elder Scrolls history? No. Gender inequality? No. Racial inequality? No. Is the population split between the wealthy nobles and staggeringly poor? No. Is the general populace illiterate? No.

 

And arrows trump magic.

 

How do you imagine that? The average archer will deal far less damage than even a moderately skilled spellcaster, and that's assuming the archer actually hits his target. An apprentice level spell like Lightening bolt will travel faster as well. This is also assuming the spellcaster doesn't have some grasp of alteration magic to beef up his defense.

 

If the power of the Emperor relies on the existence of a city or a province, then his power is already failing.

 

Not every Emperor can command the kind of respect Tiber Septim did, especially one long past his prime and without the dragon blood.

 

Which implies that you think Hammerfel only kept on fighting just because it was war mongering. Hence my response.

 

I wrote the post that way to stress the fact Hammerfell had a choice. A clear choice. War or peace. That choice did exist. All you did was mention the price of peace, which while important doesn't invalidate my words.

 

Apparently, poems are supposed to be taken 100% literally and can't possibly be a pure creation as opposed to an objective recording of events.

 

When these poems are all we have as a recording of events, yes they should take precedent over our own opinions of what may have occurred.

 

Please feel free to quote me one of my posts where I actually said that my disdain for Windcaller was supposed to be taken as 100% fact (and isn't just you reaching to make it look like I was trying to say it was fact).

 

If you're well aware of the opinionated content in your posts regarding Windcaller then I would urge you to leave such baggage at the door.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Kraeten

[DaedalusMachina]

 

Okay, let's consider for a moment we forgo everything you presented, and we translate that to something we can relate to: Does not the East Coast deserve independence?

 

Yes, it does deserve it if it so chooses. There is no longer any habitable land on this planet that isn't already occupied and/or owned by one country or another. So to deny any entity the chance at independence (and indeed, criminalize the act) is to truly demolish the notion that anyone is truly free in the end.

 

The wellbeing of the original country doesn't matter much, and honestly, if such a large portion of a country is getting ready to secede, then most likely that country is already on its way to its grave either way. A country like the US for instance doesn't have its entire eastern seaboard wanting independence if the country as a whole wasn't already collapsing anyway.

 

And as for Tamriel, need I explain how the Empire is currently waltzing into its grave again, no matter the outcome of the rebellion?

 

The imperials don't believe that Skyrim is its own location, they believe it is part of a whole, by removing that part, they become weaker. Much, MUCH weaker.

 

This doesn't make it a bad thing. For the Imperials, sure its bad, but not for anyone else. A seceding country isn't obligated to ensure that the original country can survive on its own.

 

Let's re-translate. China (for sake of example) is invading the western US, would you not treat the Secession of the Eastern Seaboard a VERY SERIOUS and DAMNING issue?

 

If China ever actually manages to invade the US (if they'd even try), then I'm not going to care much about what the rest of the country does, because by that time I'll have vacated the country. Either that, or gone completely off the grid, if I wanted to stay in my homeland. (Which, btw, I peg more as Florida itself more than the US in general).

 

Yes, but you are missing one very important factor. If Skyrim throws off the empire, Skyrim is weaker, too. The Thalmor desire Skyrim's turmoil, and failing that, they'd settle for Skyrim's independence, because that will make them easier to control. The entire rebellion benefits nobody but the Thalmor in the end.

[Stemin]

Remind me how this is different from the two threads that got locked?

 

Dawnguard isn't out on all platform's yet, so there can't be any NEW information to talk about.

[DaedalusMachina]

Eh, what does any of this thread have to do with Dawnguard? Dawnguard adds nothing to the Skyrim/Imperial debate.

[Kraeten]

Remind me how this is different from the two threads that got locked?

 

Dawnguard isn't out on all platform's yet, so there can't be any NEW information to talk about.

 

This thread might have started out different, but it's ended up in the same place.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Kraeten

[Stemin]

Eh, what does any of this thread have to do with Dawnguard? Dawnguard adds nothing to the Skyrim/Imperial debate.

 

Assuming that's correct, then like I said.. what's new that's going to be brought to the conversation? There's already 100 pages worth of rubbish in just two threads.

[DaedalusMachina]

Oh, right, now I get what you mean. Well, if we keep going like we are, this thread will be locked for going off-topic.

[Relativelybest]

So, I just played through No One Escapes Cidhna Mine, and something occured to me - if the Stormcloak aligned Nords deserve their own independant kingdom in their own ancestral land where they are free to practice their own religion, doesn't the same thing apply to the Forsworn?

 

I mean, according to them, the Nords conquered their land, suppressed their culture and banned their religion. I don't know about you guys, but that sounds kinda familiar. So, if we accept that the Stormcloak rebellion and ideology is legitimate what with every group of free living beings being free to rule over themselves and all that, then that means the Forsworn uprising was/is equally legitimate. An uprising that was very ironically (most likely deliberatelly so) defeated by non other than Ulfric Stormcloak, who then went on to start his own uprising for basically the same reasons. Meanwhile, anyone who was even seen talking to Madanach was tossed into Cidhna Mine forever - a place where you get fed once a week if you work hard enough.

 

It seems to me that if the Stormcloaks really believed in their ideals - beyond the extent they apply to themselves, I mean - then Ulfric ought to hand the Reach back to the Forsworn once he's High King.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Relativelybest

[Kraeten]

So, I just played through No One Escapes Cidhna Mine, and something occured to me - if the Stormcloak aligned Nords deserve their own independant kingdom in their own ancestral land where they are free to practice their own religion, doesn't the same thing apply to the Forsworn?

 

If we're talking strictly about principle, then yes. Once we factor in that the Forsworn have degenerated into bloodthirsty primitive tribesmen...eh not so much.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Kraeten