Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[MacSuibhne]

So, if most slaves are content with their master but a few want to rebel, then the rebels should stand down if there is any chance their fellow slaves will fight on behalf of the master and might need to be killed? I don't think I like that logic. By your standards, no rebellion is ever justified because the rebels always have to war against some of their fellows who are advantaged by the status quo and will fight to maintain it.

 

Who should make the decision as to whether or not a wrong can no longer be tolerated? It seems to me that the people who are being wronged are the only ones in position to make that call. It doesn't matter how many people have been directly victimized. Those who are in a position to rightfully fear wrong being done to them are entitled to do what is necessary to prevent that.

 

Fundamentally, controlling who or what people worship is controlling what they think. It is "mind-control" and nothing short. And mind control is the essence of totalitarianism...it is oppression defined. Those who aid or abet that oppression...or even look the other way...are craven if not complicit.

 

It bears repeating that the Code of Hammurabi--"symbolizing not only the emergence of justice in the minds of men, but also man’s rise above ignorance and barbarism toward the peaceful and just societies"--was written more than 3700 years ago.

 

The point is that even in cruel and violent societies, people aspire to justice and seek redress wherever possible...

 

And rightfully so.

[Kraeten]

 

 

So, if most slaves are content with their master but a few want to rebel, then the rebels should stand down if there is any chance their fellow slaves will fight on behalf of the master and might need to be killed? I don't think I like that logic. By your standards, no rebellion is ever justified because the rebels always have to war against some of their fellows who are advantaged by the status quo and will fight to maintain it.

This isn't "some". This is half of Skyrim we're talking about.

 

 

Those who are in a position to rightfully fear wrong being done to them are entitled to do what is necessary to prevent that.

They are entitled to do something, but not kill innocent people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you meant by citing those Thalmor Orders. Obviously Elenwen did not have the forces to spare to comb the Skyrim wilderness inch-by-inch to follow up on every rumor of a shrine. That doesn't mean that no Talos worshipers are being abused or that the Thalmor place a low priority on hunting down heretics. It only means that there are certain practical limits on what they can accomplish.

 

The point of posting the link, was to illustrate that the Thalmor's ranks are not only stretched thinly but apparently even the twisted Thalmor desire evidence.

 

 

That you'd even entertain that idea as being good paints you as a terrible person.

I never said it was good. I'm just not going to jump onto the bandwagon and say the ban was this colossally oppressive law that undermined ever Nordic ideal. By over reacting the Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Dominion wants.

 

 

No, he's rebelling against the Empire, not the Nordic people. That many Nords side with the Empire does not translate that Ulfric is rebelling against Nords.

It does translate that way, actually. It doesn't matter that they disagree they are still men and women of Skyrim. The same men and women who would happily fight the Dominion when the war begins anew.

 

I stand corrected. You obviously didn't read any of my posts.

 

So having read your speculations I must consider them as facts or else I didn't read/understand them. That kind of attitude is utterly counter-productive where a mature discussion is concerned.

Ok...I actually liked the original post and questions in this one and was willing to let it go. Now it seems that things are going down the same road as before in the other threads like this that I have closed. This is 1) people are getting personal 2) arguments are just going the same route over and over. If you all can't get it together and learn how to present logical, decent and mature arguments then I will shut this down too and start issuing strikes and bans.

You would in all likelihood be better off closing the thread sooner than later. In any event I've already answered the thread's opening question so I certainly have little reason to stick around. Toodle pip.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Kraeten

[CaptainRC]

Agreed, Kraeten. Personally, I'm getting sick of these.

 

HOWEVER...

 

... since "someone" has decided to compare Lisnpuppy's warning to the ban on Talos, may I be free to point out that these constant threads that essentially say "everyone who plays Skyrim should side with the Stormcloaks and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong" could just as easily be compared to the Thalmor's attitude of "Talos was just a man and never became a god, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong."

 

Just saying...

Edited July 19, 2012 by CaptainRC

[imperistan]

The key part of that last little section I added to my post earlier wasn't that Ulfric was helping somebody; it's who he was helping, how he was helping them, and the likely consequences of those actions. Those things make his Rebellion a bad thing.

 

And in every same way that he benefits the Dominion, he benefits the Tiger Dragon.

 

And ask yourself this, would you have condemned the American Revolution if it meant that England would be at a greater threat of destruction from the French or some other country? (Note: Purely hypothetical, I realize England losing the colonies wasn't as much of a blow to them)

 

There's a time and place for everything, Ulfric was way off on both.

 

He really wasn't. As I've already explained elsewhere, the Empire has proven that it isn't going to fight the fight against the Dominion to its fullest capacity. If it could and would, then they would have started fighting 30 years ago.

 

Or, at the very least, not ceded victory to the defeated enemy. Even I agree that it was highly unlikely that the Dominion could be defeated entirely back then, but the WGC needed not be accepted nor even given acknowledgement by the Empire.

 

Both sides during that time would have been fairly oblivious to the full strengths of the other. But both sides WOULD have known how things went in Cyrodiil and how things were going in Hammerfel. The events of the time put far more bargaining points on the Empire's side of the table than on the Dominion's. The Dominion had just lost an entire invasion army PLUS the massive reinforcements it funneled to that army to take and hold the Imperial City, and was being pushed back across the desert in Hammerfel by a fractured, unsupported fighting force. The war had turned to the Empire's favor, no matter the damage sustained in Cyrodiil, and both sides would have been able to know that despite the lack of actual intel coming in.

 

It does translate that way, actually. It doesn't matter that they disagree they are still men and women of Skyrim. The same men and women who would happily fight the Dominion when the war begins anew.

 

Problem is, if those men and women could actually decide to fight the Dominion then there wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't their decision. It's the Emperors, and he made his choice.

 

So having read your speculations I must consider them as facts or else I didn't read/understand them. That kind of attitude is utterly counter-productive where a mature discussion is concerned.

 

If you would get over yourself (and your apparent insistence that I'm insulting you. Hint: I'm not) then you'd realize that what you call my "speculations" were very well supported by what was in the game and what could be reasonably and logically deduced given that information. Anyone being reasonable would be able to at least recognize that such explanations as those that I gave do have a lot of legitimacy.

 

And it'd be nice to see you respond to the rest of my post.

 

Agreed, Kraeten. Personally, I'm getting sick of these.

 

It would also be nice if people who aren't going to actually post (and instead just quip about "OH LORDY THIS TOPIC AGAIN!!!") didn't bother posting at all.

[MacSuibhne]

Agreed, Kraeten. Personally, I'm getting sick of these.

 

HOWEVER...

 

... since "someone" has decided to compare Lisnpuppy's warning to the ban on Talos, may I be free to point out that these constant threads that essentially say "everyone who plays Skyrim should side with the Stormcloaks and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong" could just as easily be compared to the Thalmor's attitude of "Talos was just a man and never became a god, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong."

 

Just saying...

 

Struck a chord, did I?

 

No one has said anything remotely like that.

 

You're free to play Skyrim any way you want. I...and many others...have said that, repeatedly. Apparently some people just weren't listening.

 

What has been said...by myself, again repeatedly...however, is that if you come on a public forum and make scurrilous and slanderous remarks that have no basis in Lore, fact, or reality you should expect to be challenged.

 

Just as a desire for independence drives the Stormcloak Rebellion (it is named after Ulfric...he didn't name it himself), so too a search for fairness and objectivity informs my remarks (and those who share a similar perspective)--a simple concept commonly referred to as "presumption of innocence." Maybe you've heard of it?

 

When these kind of threads get going it is always the Imperial apologists who point the finger first--Ulfric is a "scumbag", "Ulfric is a murderer", "Ulfric is a racist", "Ulfric is this", Ulfric is that". None of which can be empirically supported...which leaves only opinion, and emotion (sometimes verging on hysteria), and "guilt by association" to carry the day. But such arguments are simply not serious enough to count.

 

And, at some level, I suspect everyone knows that.

Edited July 19, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

It would also be nice if people who aren't going to actually post (and instead just quip about "OH LORDY THIS TOPIC AGAIN!!!") didn't bother posting at all.

 

+1 :thumbsup:

 

What would really be nice is if people who wanted to contribute (and I realize "contribute" is often a stretch) spent as much time reading and thinking about the posts they are responding to as frantically rushing to post something contrary.

 

Everybody wants respect and would prefer that they be taken seriously. But it is unreasonable to look for respect when it is so starkly obvious that the poster hasn't taken the time to read, or read for content, import, or understanding, in the first place.

 

A simple suggestion: If you want your posts to be taken seriously you have to extend the same respect to others.

Edited July 19, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Bettafighter]

I like ulfric for his Fus Ro Dah ability but at the same time I like the imperial's outfits better -.- cant decide which side to choose

[fraquar]

Fighting the average Imperial soldier is like fighting a UPS driver carrying a sword. Whats with all the brown?

[Kraeten]

 

Problem is, if those men and women could actually decide to fight the Dominion then there wouldn't be a problem. But it isn't their decision. It's the Emperors, and he made his choice.

The same Emperor who is living the very last of his days by the time the game takes place. You say you fight for a chance of something new and stronger to take the Empire's place. Well the chief problem, the Empire's leadership, is on its way out the door.

 

If you would get over yourself (and your apparent insistence that I'm insulting you. Hint: I'm not) then you'd realize that what you call my "speculations" were very well supported by what was in the game and what could be reasonably and logically deduced given that information. Anyone being reasonable would be able to at least recognize that such explanations as those that I gave do have a lot of legitimacy.

 

Yes, your speculations were built from good sources and observations. But they're still not fact. Until YOU can swallow that detail I'm not sure you have much to offer.

 

And it'd be nice to see you respond to the rest of my post.

Even with spoiler tags my posts are dragging across the page. But fine.

 

Way to completely avoid what I said.

Fine, I'll give the correct response. Ulfric had already tried to undermine the white gold concordant once already, and during that incident the Empire made it clear they couldn't be trusted to uphold the Concordant. The Thalmor had every right to observe the truce negotiations. There, your argument of Thalmor power has been utterly shot down.

 

Yes, because every successful social change in these kinds of societies were won through miles of red tape and endless politics.

The provinces of the Empire are considerably more civilized than our medieval equivalents.

 

Pretty sure I was referring to actual weapons.

In which case you have no reason to be laughing. Perhaps you think lol substitutes as an argument, it doesn't.

 

No, its fairly obvious you don't understand how the Dominion did so well in the Great War. Magic had nothing to do with it.

Magic trumps swords and armor, and the Altmer have a natural affinity for the arcane. One could argue they have the greatest affinity for magic. Now observe the Great War, one race of elves against the three/four greatest human countries. If we look at the landmasses alone, the Altmer should have been crushed soundly and yet they gave everyone a run for their money.

 

Funny quips aside, Cyrodiil isn't the only important part of the Empire. And besides that, the simple fact that the Dominion didn't just march another army straight into Cyrodiil (if they could do that, they would have. They had and have zero reason not to if they have the military strength) proves they weren't going to be able to.

Cyrodiil is THE most important part of the Empire. It not only represents the seat of the Emperor but also the heart of the Empire. If it had fallen entirely the Emperor would have little authority to command the other provinces. Skyrim might be loyal, but I don't expect Hammerfell or High Rock to take orders from some old man sitting on a pile of ashes.

 

Hammerfel didnt' accept peace because peace meant ceding the entire southern half of Hammerfel.

I've already mentioned this elsewhere...so..great that you're keeping up.

 

And yet only the most powerful of Tongues could summon that "unrivaled" power. IE, only the seldom few could ever come to having the Thu'um make them godlike. And even then, one well placed arrow from behind will stop that Tongue's voice cold.

I can't even remember why this is a point of debate in this thread. Maybe you can refresh my memory but I'm drawing a blank.

 

Yes, because we should clearly take that clearly poetic statement at face value. Because Nords are totally a purely objective, rational, and clear-cut race.

It's part of the lore. The onus is on you to disprove it and you can't.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Kraeten

[ClonePatrol]

 

The key part of that last little section I added to my post earlier wasn't that Ulfric was helping somebody; it's who he was helping, how he was helping them, and the likely consequences of those actions. Those things make his Rebellion a bad thing.

 

 

And in every same way that he benefits the Dominion, he benefits the Tiger Dragon.

 

And ask yourself this, would you have condemned the American Revolution if it meant that England would be at a greater threat of destruction from the French or some other country? (Note: Purely hypothetical, I realize England losing the colonies wasn't as much of a blow to them)

 

The American Revolution isn't really the best example for far more reasons than I care to list here, but chief among them is the fact that that's still an entirely separate type of situation. The US at the time was allied with the French, and the French were still hostile with the English. The American Revolution did put England at greater threat of destruction by France, a nation who was one of their primary colonial rivals and would very much have liked to gain control of English assets.

 

It'd only be a similar situation if the French intended to purge all those they considered lesser races from the entire British Empire (which included the US). If that was the case then of course I'd be against the American Revolution.

 

There's a time and place for everything, Ulfric was way off on both.

 

 

 

 

He really wasn't. As I've already explained elsewhere, the Empire has proven that it isn't going to fight the fight against the Dominion to its fullest capacity. If it could and would, then they would have started fighting 30 years ago.

 

Or, at the very least, not ceded victory to the defeated enemy. Even I agree that it was highly unlikely that the Dominion could be defeated entirely back then, but the WGC needed not be accepted nor even given acknowledgement by the Empire.

The war effectively reached a ceasefire not even thirty years ago (I'm pretty sure it actually did start thirty years ago), the White-Gold Concordant was signed in 4E 175 and the game takes place in 4E 201. Just because a temporary peace is reached does not mean that there's is no intention of resuming hostilities. Both sides were heavily exhausted in the war, neither knew if they could win for sure if it continued at the time, and it could easily have turned into a Pyrrhic victory for one or both sides. Just because the Empire isn't fighting the Dominion during the events of Skyrim doesn't mean they aren't preparing for war again, there isn't any nation that would ignore the looming threat the Dominion could pose to them.

 

There is a massive difference between a true surrender and a tactical ceasefire. Consider the history of warfare between France and England for example. They'd build up armies, expend all their resources fighting each other, treaties would be signed, unfavorable concessions would be made by whatever party seemed to be worse off at the time, and whatever side "lost" still had every intention of resuming the fighting once they were able to do so. Until the war was ready to be resumed, the "loser" would have to try and seem like it wasn't readying for war again until it was ready to resume hostilities.

 

When a person has clear incentive to be deceptive you can't necessarily believe anything they say or indicate publicly, you can only examine the circumstance and draw conclusions based on available data which may not always be sufficient to provide certainty. Again, no country would ever ignore the looming threat of war and not ready themselves for it, they would however try and hide what they were doing so that the enemy couldn't prepare counter measures.

 

Both sides during that time would have been fairly oblivious to the full strengths of the other. But both sides WOULD have known how things went in Cyrodiil and how things were going in Hammerfel. The events of the time put far more bargaining points on the Empire's side of the table than on the Dominion's. The Dominion had just lost an entire invasion army PLUS the massive reinforcements it funneled to that army to take and hold the Imperial City, and was being pushed back across the desert in Hammerfel by a fractured, unsupported fighting force. The war had turned to the Empire's favor, no matter the damage sustained in Cyrodiil, and both sides would have been able to know that despite the lack of actual intel coming in.

Deciding whether or not to continue a war has as much to do with analyzing your own position as it does the enemies. Things were going badly for the Empire all over, just because they won a battle and managed to retake their decimated and probably looted capital city doesn't mean they gained the upper hand. Just because there were moderate successes in Hammerfell at the time doesn't mean they would continue. Just because the Thalmor lost an army doesn't really mean they lost much either, it's impossible to say what percent of the Dominions military resources were actually in place there, most countries will keep a large amount in reserve within their borders. The Dominion was the invading force and they managed to capture the Imperial City, the Empire was without a doubt still in a terrible position.

 

Even if the Empire managed to repel the invading force off the continent, they'd still have to invade the Summerset Isles in order to even things out since it was their own homeland. The Dominion should be largely intact minus military assets. Unless they instituted a draft then their civilian population likely survived largely unscathed. They didn't have any of their own cities destroyed on their mainland, they captured territory on Tamriel, brought the Khajit in to the Dominion and likely used a lot of the Khajit's military resources instead of their own. In no way did the Empire gain the upper-hand when they retook their capital.

 

Also, the Thalmor are all Altmer mages and all Mer are incredibly long lived compared to the Empire's short lived Nedic population (that tends to want to kill any mages who artificially prolong their life as the only ways to do so seem to be necromancy or vampirism, no matter how valuable those individuals magical power could be) thus allowing far more time for the average citizen to become acquainted with magic and their magical resources are likely far superior to those of the Empire. They also possess a great deal of lore about Oblivion that was instrumental in their rise to power during the Empire's decline due to the Oblivion Crisis. As the Thalmor are the leaders of the Dominion and their most powerful mages are unlikely to be fielded initially, they'd likely be able to augment their armies with creatures called from Oblivion in ways that would be beyond the Empires ability.

Edited July 19, 2012 by ClonePatrol